Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Joseph in Egypt

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Nick1986 View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Mighty Slayer of Trolls

Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Joseph in Egypt
    Posted: 29-Oct-2012 at 08:48
Jacob had 12 sons, but his favorite was Joseph. The other brothers were jealous because Jacob gave Joseph a colorful coat, so they plotted to murder him. He was lured into a well, then sold to Egyptian slavers. Using his ability to interpret dreams, Joseph advanced in society and eventually became Vizier.
Is there any evidence proving the existence of a high-ranking Jewish official in Egypt (such as a tomb or inscription), and which Pharaoh did Joseph serve?
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
Back to Top
Baal Melqart View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 28-Mar-2011
Location: UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 869
  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2012 at 10:09
Originally posted by Nick1986

Jacob had 12 sons, but his favorite was Joseph. The other brothers were jealous because Jacob gave Joseph a colorful coat, so they plotted to murder him. He was lured into a well, then sold to Egyptian slavers. Using his ability to interpret dreams, Joseph advanced in society and eventually became Vizier.
Is there any evidence proving the existence of a high-ranking Jewish official in Egypt (such as a tomb or inscription), and which Pharaoh did Joseph serve?


First of all, you must prove that the Egypt referred to by the Jews as ''Mizraim'' really is the Egypt we know nowadays. Egypt's name was Kemet so a mistake in referrence seems quite plausible to me. For example, we know that the Babel referred to was babylon because the Babylonians themselves called it ''Bab-Ili''.


Timidi mater non flet
Back to Top
Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar

Joined: 18-Aug-2006
Location: The Llano
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7392
  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2012 at 11:29
Originally posted by Baal Melqart

Originally posted by Nick1986

Jacob had 12 sons, but his favorite was Joseph. The other brothers were jealous because Jacob gave Joseph a colorful coat, so they plotted to murder him. He was lured into a well, then sold to Egyptian slavers. Using his ability to interpret dreams, Joseph advanced in society and eventually became Vizier.
Is there any evidence proving the existence of a high-ranking Jewish official in Egypt (such as a tomb or inscription), and which Pharaoh did Joseph serve?


First of all, you must prove that the Egypt referred to by the Jews as ''Mizraim'' really is the Egypt we know nowadays. Egypt's name was Kemet so a mistake in reference seems quite plausible to me. For example, we know that the Babel referred to was babylon because the Babylonians themselves called it ''Bab-Ili''.


 
First a minor point of contention....imo, 'Hebrew' is to be substituted for Jew-Jewish given the story of Joseph. And that particular time frame.
 
Second the name Mizraim is not a far stretch for the Ugaritic...'Msrm' nor the name  'Misri' nor the use of 'Musur' or 'Musri' (Assyrian and Babylonian). Iirc, with out going to my CIA Handbook; in Egypt, it remains Misr....or some such.
 
Thirdly, the use of 'Km.t', 'i.At', 'Kmi', 'Kmi—Tamer-t', and or 'Km Hr tAwy' and or varying combo's are considered much older then those in the para above. So it boils down to dating of useage in a particular era. By whomever.
 
 
And lastly, as to who he rendered service to and becomes invaluable for. Thereby leading his Hebrew kinsman initially into prominence; has traditionally been based on 'when' you date his arrival from Canaan into Egypt. Most used 1544BC. And once upon a time Apôphis II was considered the Pharaoh. That however has almost been universally rejected by later biblical historians etc.
 
 
 


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 29-Oct-2012 at 11:30
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

Back to Top
Baal Melqart View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 28-Mar-2011
Location: UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 869
  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2012 at 11:35

Thanks for the reply CV but can you prove that these cognates were used to designate the Egypt we know nowadays? Surely the tablets mentioning 'msrm' or 'musri' by the Ugaritic and Babylonians make a reference that can't be confused with any other peoples or land. This is what I am looking for. If you have such references I would be quite thankful. Cheers



Timidi mater non flet
Back to Top
Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar

Joined: 18-Aug-2006
Location: The Llano
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7392
  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2012 at 11:41
Nope my sources are yours.....and as always, they can be interpreted in varying ways not only linguistically but historically in relationship to use dating...and confirmation of their actual creation dating.
 
 
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2012 at 11:50

I not have much time but here are some clues for interest that Joseph was in 3rd-4th dynasty:

Sekhemhet / Djoserty-Ankh = Joseph / Zaphenath-Paneah.

Surid [Seris] (dreams, 300 yrs before flood) = Pharaoh (dreams, "215"/400 years before Moses).

"Ra-hotep/Hotep-ra" priest of Heliopolis = Potiphera priest of On. (Though it is disputed that the name can't be read that way around.)

7 years famine Djoser = 7 years famine Joseph.

famine scenes Unas (beside/between Sekhemhet's & Djosers complexes) = famine of Joseph.

"flood" & "fire" of Surid ~ plenty & famine of Joseph?

bent pyramid (wider bottom half & narrower top half, pi 3 & 4 or 3.5) ~ 7 years plenty & famine?

grain storage bins at Sekhemhet's "buried pyramid" (& Djoser's step pyramid) ~ Joseph's storehouses.

Sokhem (Latopolis) = Goshen (& Latopolis in Josephus).

(Haven't got time to address the supposed date of 3rd/4th dynasty suffice to say that Menes was not earlier than 2300 bc as Josephus said he was 1300 years before Solomon, together with other evidences.)

See also Ron Wyatt's earlier Imhotep/Joseph theory/thesis which was more or less spot-on.

Back to Top
Nick1986 View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Mighty Slayer of Trolls

Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2012 at 09:24
He must have been very important if he was embalmed. Moses took Joseph's mummy with him when he left Egypt and it reburied in the Promised Land
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2019 at 03:48

Below are matches between Cheops/Khufu & Jacob, Joseph & Sekhemhet, Joseph & the Sphinx, Joseph & Djedefre, Joseph & Djoser/Zoser, Joseph & Imhotep, Joseph & Khasekhemwy. All are in line with discovery that Joseph was in the 2nd/3rd to 4th/5th dynasty, and Jacob was Khufu/Cheops of the 4th dynasty. (Further details in this thread http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37787&PID=723380#723380 .)

(Note: the way i have done this is each block first lists the Egyptian person's details and then Josephs/Jacobs similar details.)


Cheops/Khufu: name (Khnum-)Khufu/Khufwey/Cheops meaning "protected (by the god Khnum)" or "(Khnum) protect me". (Hoeh thought he was Job.)
Jacob: name Jacob(-el) meaning "may God protect" (compare Yaqub-har "god Har watches over"). (Word-play/pun with Kocab.) (Job & Jacob similar names and lifespans/ages.)
Comparison of both: The two names have same letters/consonants c/ch/kh - o/u - b/p/f/fw + ja/ey/e at end/start/middle-left (transposition/metathesis). (The Egyptian hieroglyphics might not be read right.)
The two names have exact same meanings. (Khnum was a creator/potter god very similar to Elohim/Yhwh.)

Cheops/Khufu: 17 yrs "reign" (highest verbatim reign year mention in contemporary records, all other higher claimed reign-lengths being only in much later sources).
Jacob: 17 yrs in Egypt.

Cheops/Khufu: 2/3/4 wives/satellite-pyramids
Jacob: 2/3/4 wives

Cheops/Khufu: associated with Djedefre/Sphinx, Khafre/Chephren & Menkaure/Mycerinus.
Jacob: associated with Joseph/Zaphenath, Ephraim & Manasseh.

Cheops/Khufu:gold/bronze metalic colour wooden bed found in the "tomb of Hetephires" at Giza nearby Khufu's pyramid?
Jacob: Jacob's bed/couch in Genesis 47:31 & 48:2 & 49:33.

Cheops/Khufu:  had a "rather large family". From various sources Khufu seems to have had between 6 to 9 to 15 sons. Clayton lists 6 sons, and his genealogical tree shows 5 of them. (There is also a similar number of tombs/mastabas on 1 or 2 sides of the great pyramid?)
Jacob: had 4 + 2 (+ 2) & 2/3/4 (+ 2) sons = 12/14 sons.

Cheops/Khufu: was at Giza/Gizeh/Er-ges-her.
(Herodotus said the shepherd Philitis dwelt at Giza at this time.)
Jacob: was at Goshen/Gosen/Goson / Gesem (Septuagint) / Kessan (Artapanus), the "best of the land".
(Josephus said the exodus started from Latopolis (Sokhem) which is not far away from Giza.)

Cheops/Khufu: Khnum-Khufu & Khufu?
Jacob: "mighty one of Jacob" & Jacob.

Cheops/Khufu: Great Pyramid.
Jacob: Jacob's ladder. Embalmed/mourned for 40/70 days.

Cheops/Khufu: body missing.
Jacob: body removed to Canaan/Israel/Palestine.

Cheops/Khufu/S(o)uphis: Khafre/Chephren is called S(o)uphis II. The order of the 3 pyramids at Giza goes Khufu - Khafre (& Sphinx) - Menkaure (and Menkaure's is smaller).
Jacob: adopted Joseph's 2 sons in place of Reuben & Simeon, and he put the younger son Ephraim before the elder son Manasseh.

Cheops/Khufu: it is admitted in some orthodox sources that it is only theory that Sneferu was Khufu's father.
Jacob: his father was Isaac.

Khufu/Cheops: The name of Khafre's/Chephren's pyramid means "great/upper" (and the Pyramid is seen rising high behind Sphinx looking from in front of Sphinx face). Name of pyramid of Menkaure means "high".
Jacob: Jacob in Genesis 49 says (the lion of) Judah "shall go up". Ephraim is "greater" & Manasseh is "great" in Genesis 48.

Khufu/Cheops: There is evidence that the leonine Sphinx was maybe mentioned/known in Khufu's reign.
Jacob: Jacob in Genesis 49 says the (crouching) "Lion of Judah (shall go up)". "Head of Joseph" in Genesis 49 & Deut 33. Joseph was called "Zaphenath-paneah" (pi-ankh).

Khufu/Cheops: Herodotus said the shepherd Philitis ("lover of righteousness") dwelt at Giza in the 4th dynasty.
Jacob: Jacob and sons were shepherds (or keepers/herders of cattle).

Khufu/Cheops: Cheops 50 yrs & Chephren 56 yrs = 106 yrs temples never opened in Herodotus. 51/52 degrees of the Pyramid. (56 associated with Typhon/Set?)
Jacob: Joseph lived to 110 yrs old. (Jubilee 49/50 yrs.)

Khufu/Cheops: 4th dynasty seem like foreigners in some ancient sources. Herodotus claimed Egyptians hated pyramid builders. ("Pyramid builders closed the temples".)
Jacob: Hebrews were foreigners, later Egyptians turned against them, later anti-Semitism. (Judaeo-Christianity not tolerate other gods worship.)
Ancient source said "Hebrews were 'captive shepherds' not 'king shepherds".

Khufu/Cheops: 4th dynasty pyramid builders prophesied to last for 150 yrs which is half of the 300 yrs from Surid to the "flood".
Jacob: (7 yrs plenty + 7 yrs famine = 14 yrs x 10 months/"years" = 140 "years"?) Jacob lived to 147 yrs old. Hebrews in Egypt for 430/400 yrs or "215" yrs.

Khufu/Cheops: The mastabas on 1/2/3 sides of Khufu's Great Pyramid (and not around the other 2 pyramids) at Giza look alot like they may be Israelites around Jacob/Israel at Goshen?
Jacob: came with 70 souls into Egypt. Hebrews increased greatly by time of exodus. (Compare 4 sides of tabernacle?)

Khufu/Cheops: Great Pyramid geodesic info has a global air to it.
Joseph: 7 yrs famine was world-wide according to bible. (The early time is also not long after division of nations at Babel.)


Sekhemhet: Horus/serekh name Sekhem(k)het/Sekhemk(h)et / Se(s)chemchet / "Szehemhet/Sejemjet" (or Semerhet) (or Sanakht?)
Joseph: name Tafneos/Zaphenath-Paneah/Psothom-phanech

Sekhemhet: Nebty/queen name Nebty-Djosert(y)(-Ankh) / Djeserty(-ankh)-nebty / Djesert(i)nebty / Djefat(i)nebty
Joseph: name Joseph; name Paneah ("p-ankh"?)

Sekhemhet: Nebty/queen name Sen-nebty
Nebty/queen name Htp-ren(...)(nebty)
Joseph: married Asenath daughter of Potiphera.

Sekhemhet: Birth/Horus/secondary name Teti/Tety/Itety
Joseph: was vizier (tjaty).

Sekhemhet: name Imhotep found among graffitos on his pyramid complex.
Nebty/queen name Htp-ren(...)(nebty)
Joseph: has been shown to have matches with Imhotep (Mohler/Wyatt). Was servant of Potiphar & Potiphar's wife.

Sekhemhet: gold necklace found in complex.
Joseph: gold chain placed around his neck.

Sekhemhet: pyramid complex next to Unas famine scenes.
Joseph: 7 yrs famine.

Sekhemhet: means "might/powerful (of/in the) body"
Joseph: called "the all-comely". Genesis & Josephus says/implies he was beautiful/handsome/good-looking.

Sekhemhet could mean "Grey haired Son of a foreigner ruling overall" or "grey haired ruler over all"?
Joseph was a foreigner.

Sekhemhet could mean "Grey haired Son of a foreigner ruling overall" or "grey haired ruler over all"?
Joseph lived to 110 yrs old.

Sekhemhet: 100/120/132 store/storage rooms/chambers/containers of Sekhemhet complex.
Joseph: storehouses of Joseph. (12 patriarchs? Joseph lived to a 110.)

Sekhemhet: considered by Egyptologists to be same as Teti in another source?
Joseph: was vizier (tjaty).

Sekhemhet pyramid complex: 7 steps. Sekhemet associated with king in kinglist who reigned 6/7 yrs?
Joseph: 7 years?

Sekhemhet: empty sarcophagus.
Joseph: Joseph bones removed.

Sekhemhet: giant fennel branch. (Compare vizier Huy/Huny bears a large feather/branch?)
Joseph: 7 years plenty. (Hyssop branches in exodus. Moses removed Joseph's bones? Branch/sprout/shoot/bough is Messianic symbol. Joseph was vizier and would have had a feather/branch like other viziers like Huy/Huny.)

Sekhemhet: ramp
Joseph: rode in 2nd chariot.

Sekhemhet: 72 degrees slope
Joseph: 70 souls. 70 days. 7 yrs.

Sekhemhet: Pyramid/monument of Khaba (Sedjes) blindly repreats/similar construction techniques & layout of Sekhemhet's
Joseph: his father Jacob (Israel) comes.

Sekhemhet: confounded with Semerhet
Joseph: matches Sekhemhet. Abraham was in Egypt about the time of Semerhet's reign?

Sekhemhet: is supposed to have been a pharaoh/king though his name doesn't occur in the king-lists.
(Sekhemhet could mean "Grey haired Son of a foreigner ruling overall" or "grey haired ruler over all"?)
(Sekhemhet is the supposed "successor" of Djoser, and his semi-pyramid complex is beside Djoser's and looks as if a vizier's beside his king's?)
Joseph: given pharaoh's signet ring; was vizier; was adon "lord" over all the land; 2nd only to pharaoh; rode in second chariot; they called abrekh "bow the knee" before him; brothers were afraid of him after Jacob died; eternal mountains may be pyramids ("pyramids pharaohs' tombs"); placed in coffin; "head of Joseph" in Genesis 49.
Joseph's brothers were made "rulers over pharaohs cattle", and in Egyptian humans were cattle of the sun god Ra.
A new king who knew not Joseph could imply Joseph or his sons were married into the royal dynastic line.
(In the story of Bata and Anpu('s wife), which is similar to Joseph and Potiphar's wife, Bata becomes ruler/king/pharaoh at the end.)

Sekhemhet: sekhem can mean "shut place, imprison".
Joseph was in pharaoh's/Potiphar's prison for 2 yrs. (Storehouses.)


Khasekhemwy: name Kha-sekhemwy/Cha-neres (or Beby) is similar to Sekhem-het (or Netjeri-khet).
Joseph: name Zaphenath/Tafneos/Psothom is similar to Sekhemhet.

Khasekhemwy: wife Nemathap.
Joseph: wife As(e)nat(h)/Acenath/Osnath/Snat/"Ius-en-at".

Khasekhemwy: seals at entrance to his tomb mention Djoser.

Khasekhemwy: banner of Seth alongside symbols of Horus.

Djoser: name Djoser/Zoser/Ser/Tcheser/T'asar/Sesor
Joseph: name Joseph/Yahuwseph

Djoser: queen/consort Hetepher-nebty.
Joseph: wife daugter of Potiphera.

Djoser: 7 yrs drought/famine (Sahel/Philae). (Surid's fire?)
6-tiered Step Pyramid (1 + 5 tiers).
(An 8 yr old child found i a coffin in the complex.)
(Wyatt claimed grain storage bins in the pyramid complex.)
More than 40,000 pots, vessels, bowls and vases found below the complex.
(The complex had 14 enterances.)
Joseph: 7 yrs plenty & 7 (2 + 5) yrs famine/drought.

Djoser: hebsed jubilee of 30 yrs; 29 yrs reign.
Joseph: about 30 yrs old.

Djoser: 11/12 shafts/tombs/dummy-shrines in his pyramid complex
Joseph: 11/12 brothers.

Djoser: step pyramid. (fortress name means "hills of the gods".)
Joseph: eternal mountains of Genesis 49. Jacob's ladder.
(Hebrews came from Mesopotamia where there are ziggurats.)

Djoser: supposed to have been pharaoh/king. (Name Djoser doesn't occur until later in Egyptian dynastic history.)
Joseph: given pharaoh's signet ring; was vizier; was adon "lord" over all the land; 2nd only to pharaoh; rode in second chariot; they called abrekh "bow the knee" before him; brothers were afraid of him after Jacob died; eternal mountains may be pyramids ("pyramids pharaohs' tombs"); placed in coffin.

Djoser: 18/19 or 28/29/30 yrs reign / building pyramid.
Joseph: 14 yrs plenty & famine; 17 yrs Jacob in Egypt.

Djoser/Surid: associated with dream/dreams (Sahel/Philae, Masoudi).
Joseph story: dreams of Joseph/cupbearer/baker/pharaoh.

Djoser: banner of Seth alongside symbols of Horus.

Djoser: Tosorthros associated with healing exactly similar to Imhotep.
Joseph: has been shown to have matches with Imhotep.

Djoser: still remembered by Egyptians in Ptolemaic times. (Imhotep "of such importance", "fame".)
Joseph: "new pharaoh who knew not Joseph" confirms that Joseph was long remembered for saving Egypt and world from the famine.

Djoser: Djoser/Netjerikhet & Imhotep and djed & tyet in inscription.
Joseph: was vizier (tjaty).
(Joseph seems to also match Djedef-re & Djedi.)

Djoser: "allusion to underworld waters".
Joseph: saved Egypt from famine.

Djoser: Unas'/Wenis' famine scenes (& stores) beside Sekhemhet's & Djoser's pyramid complexes.

Djoser/Zoser/Ser: Seris/Soris/S(a)urid was 300 yrs before "flood"
Joseph was 400/430 yrs before exodus.

Djedefre: "Djedefre's starry sky"
Joseph: 12 stars in dream.

Djedefre: father Khufwey/Khufu/Cheops; mother unknown.
Joseph: father Jacob; mother died before Jacob went to Egypt.

Djedefre: between Cheops/Khufu/Khufwey & Chephren/Khafre
Joseph: between Jacob & Ephraim

Djedefre: pyramid not at Giza/Gizeh/Er-gesher
Joseph: didn't dwell with Jacob at Goshen.

Djedefre: wife Hetepheres
Joseph: wife daughter of Potiphera.

Djedefre: Sphinx face suggested to match Djedefre or Khafre/Chephren.
Joseph: head of Joseph in Genesis 49. Ephraim's face would be similar to Joseph's.

Djedefre: maybe connected with the djed of Djoser's/Zoser's inscription, &/or 110-year-older Djedi (who has similarities with Joseph).
Joseph: 110 yrs old. (Has similarities with Djedi.)

Djedefre: Djedefre(-ankh)
Joseph: Zaphenath-paneah ("pi-ankh"?)

Djedefre: red quartzite statue. (Typhon/Set was red.)
Joseph: compare ruddy David/Jesus.

Djedefre: The name of Set(h)-ka has connection with Set/Seth/Shem.*
Joseph: Shemite/Sethite.*
Ephraim's son Shuthelah, or Shemida of Manasseh? (Genesis 48 says further sons of Joseph would be put in Ephraim and/or Manasseh.)
(* 3 Kindgons Old, Middle, New roughly match 3 Hermes Seth, Shu/Num, Thoth match 3 reincarnations Seth/Shem, Moses, Samuel.)

Sphinx: name Sphinx/Sheshep-ankh.
Joseph: name Zaphenath-Paneah ("p-ankh"?)

Sphinx: connected with dreams.
Joseph: dreams.

Sphinx: head/face (which has been considered to match Djedefre or Khafre/Chephren).
Joseph: head of Joseph in Genesis 49. Joseph may match Djedefre (see separate post on their matches). Joseph's son Ephraim would have similar face. (Joseph/Zaphenath & Sphinx may match Shepseskaf of same dynasty?)

Sphinx: associated with pyramids of Cheops/Khufu/Khufwey, Khafre/Chephren & Menkaure/Mycerinus.
Joseph/Zaphenath: associated with Jacob, Ephraim & Manasseh.

Sphinx: The Sphinx rain marks?
Joseph: 7 years plenty?


Imhotep: name Imhotep/Iemhetep/Iimhtp/Iu-em-hept/*Ja-im-hatap/Jjmhtp/Imouthes.
(word-play of Htp/Hetep "offering(s), peace, conciliation, realisation of" & Pth/Ptah "fire fallen into earth".)
Joseph: name Joseph/Yahuwseph/Joses/Asaph; name Tafneos/Zaphenath-paneah/Psothom-phanech; name "Peteseph".
Comparison: name not same except unless Ja & hotep is vaguely similar to Joseph? (Perhaps compare Ja-m-hotep/Joseph, Aa-en-ru/Aa-ru, Shemsu/Schesoo/Shasu, Romt/Rom/Rot/Auritae?)
Imhotep & Ptah might be closer to Potiphar?

Imhotep: son of Ptah (father)
Joseph: son of Jacob/Israel/Jeshurun.
Comparison: no match unless Ptah matches Jah who J(eh)oseph could be son of? (Or son of god Ptah could match Jospeh had no known father in Egypt?)

Imhotep: son of Khereduankh/Hathor daughter of Banebdjedet, or son of Sekhmet, or son of Nut(mother).
Joseph: son of Rachel, step-son of Leah.
Comparison: mother's names not match though Kheredu-ankh might possibly be slightly similar to Rachel (considering hieroglypic name might be read different ways, and considering changes between Hebrew & Egyptian)?

Imhotep: name means "he/the-one (who) comes in peace".
Joseph: did come to Egypt in peace.

Imhotep: wife Rashaa
Joseph: wife Asenath daughter of Potiphera.
Comparison: Names not necessarily same/similar but they are possibly similar (both have a & s & h, n/r could interchange, could be transposition of the s-n/r-s since hieroglyphs might be read different way and since changes between Egyptian & Hebrew?) Imhotep's wife Rashaa might be Potiphar's wife?

Imhotep: sister Renpetnef(e)ret.
Joseph: sister Dinah, one source suggests Jacob also had another daughter?
Comparison: not really see anymuch match, though Imhotep's is a late tradition which might be untrue.

Imhotep: counsellor, lived at court, high standing at court, a chief/high official/functionary & the chancellor/minister/vizier (tjaty) of pharaoh Djoser/Zoser.
Joseph: Joseph was vizier (tjaty) of pharaoh. (Had his own house.)
Comparison: names Joseph & Djoser similar. Both were viziers. (Djoser is only recorded very late and may not really have been the pharaoh's name.)
Potiphar was "a court official".
(Potiphar was a 'saris' which is supposed to mean "eunuch" (or "courtier"?) but which might possibly match "hereditary lord"?)
Potiphar was "executioner" (executor or executive?)

Imhotep: "first after the king".
Joseph: second only to pharaoh.

Imhotep: "at one point Djoser desires Imhotep's sister, and Imhotep disguises himself and tries to rescue her".
(Imhotep fights an Assyrian sorceress in a duel of magic".)
("his linen garment symbolises his religious purity".)
("became a focal point for married couples desiring a son".)
("held in contempt by the workmen"?)
Joseph: Potiphar's wife desires Joseph....
Comparison: Egyptian pharaoh's married their sister. Stories seem to match but reversal of roles of who desired who, and if "Joseph = Imhotep" then half-reversal &/or half-similarity of that role too. Name Djoser similar to Joseph. Imhotep may match Potiphar?

Imhotep: Imhotep graffito on Sekhemhet's pyramid complex.
Joseph: name Zaphenath.
Comparison: hotep vaguely similar to Joseph? Sekhemhet might match Zaphenath?

Imhotep: astrologer/astronomer.
Joseph: 12 stars in dream. (Shepherds star gazers.)

Imhotep: comes before Rahotep (priest of Heliopolis/On) in list of architects.
Joseph: married daughter of Potiphera (priest of On/Heliopolis).
Comparison: Imhotep came before Rahotep/Hotepra who may match Potiphera whose daughter Joseph married?

Imhotep: instrumental in ending 7 yrs famine of Djoser. (water bowl, libation soil.) (6-tiered step-pyramid.)
"He remembered Imhotep wo once delivered Egypt from a similar disaster, but when his help was invoked no answer was vouchsafed."
("resolver of human problems".)
(word-play of Htp/Hetep "offering(s), peace, conciliation, realisation of" & Pth/Ptah "fire fallen into earth".)
Joseph: saved Egypt from 7 yrs famine.
Comparison: Both connected with 7 yrs famine, but the names Joseph & Djoser might match rather than Imhotep & Joseph? (Joseph can't be both?) The Sahel/Philae famine account is a very late record, so changes may have occured in the details.

Imhotep: master-builder/chief-architect / engineer/designer/sculptor/carpenter (of step pyramid, stone buildings/architecture). (Craftsmen, technicians.)
Joseph: Joseph is type of Jesus son of carpenter Joseph. Eternal mountains of Joseph in Genesis 49 may match pyramids. Jacob's ladder. Joseph's storehouses.
Potiphar was "executioner" (executor or executive?)

Imhotep: treasurer of the king.
Joseph: storehouses. gathered up all the money etc of Egyptians.

Imhotep: tomb hidden/unknown/not-found.
Joseph: put in coffin in Egypt, bones removed in Exodus and buried in Israel/Canaan/Palestine.

Imhotep: counsellor, wisdom, "held in awe by the reigning pharaoh"?
high priest of Re at Heliopolis/On; his tutelary god was Thoth.
Joseph: follower of El/God, interpreted pharaoh's dreams (by God's help); married daughter of high priest of On/Heliopolis.
Comparison: Re/sun-god and Thoth are similar to El/Jah/God.

Imhotep: architect of a sanctuary to the sun-god at Heliopolis; high priest of Re at Heliopolis/On.
Joseph: married daughter of high priest of On/Heliopolis.

Imhotep appeared in a dream; "who foretold the future"
Joseph: dreams.

Imhotep (3rd dyn): physician/health/medicine/doctor/miracles/Asclepius (late legend). "his linen garment symbolises his religious purity".
Tosorthros (3rd dyn): skilled in the art of healing sickness.
Joseph: Hebrews known for later Mosaic cleanliness/hygene/sanitation laws; Joseph type of Jesus who was healer; Joseph's name may mean "helped".

Imhotep: of N & S Egypt
Joseph: over "all the land" of Egypt.

Imhotep cult of Thoth who has been corresponded with Moses.
Joseph connection with Moses who has been corresponded with Thoth.

Imhotep: image & likness of Thoth.
Joseph: type of Jesus.

Imhotep: hereditary lord.
Joseph: no Egyptian parentage; son-in-law of Egyptian priest; 2 Egyptian sons.
(Potiphar was a 'saris' which is supposed to mean "eunuch" (or "courtier"?) but which might possibly match "hereditary lord"?)

Imhotep: lived at court, administrator of the great palace.
Joseph: had his own house (when his brothers came).

Imhotep: Djoser & Imhotep associated with djed & tyet in statue base inscription.
Joseph: was vizier (tjaty); seemingly may match Djedefre & Djedi.

Imhotep: "there are numerous indicators that he was not Egyptian". "held in contempt by the workmen". "He was considered an outsider, a foreigner, and a shepherd ... quite unlike themselves." "He was of ruddy complexion, with auburn or red hair."
Joseph: was a Hebrew foreigner, and a shepherd. (David/Jesus were ruddy.) (Sold to Potiphar by foreign Midianites/Ishmaelites.)

Imhotep: "Adminstrator/director of the great palace/mansion"; ("workmen employed in the building of the pyramid".)
Joseph: "You shall be over my house" (Gen 41:40);
(Potiphar captain of the guard?)

Imhotep: seal-bearer of the king; near to the head of the king (ie vizier); royal representative.
Joseph: pharaoh give Joseph his signet ring; he was 2nd only to pharaoh.

Imhotep: 6-tiered pyramid. connected with 7 yrs famine of Zoser. (Djoser's heb-sed 30 yrs jubilee?) "during 19 yrs of Zoser/Netjerikhet"? "outlived Zoser by a few years". during brief reign of Sekhemhhet.
Joseph: 17 yrs old; 2 yrs in prison; about 30 yrs old; vizier during 7 yrs plenty & 7 yrs famine; Jacob in Egypt for 17 yrs (including last 5 yrs of famine); lived to 110 yrs old.

Imhotep: counsellor; wisdom. "is there anyone else like Imhotep?"
Joseph: "Because God has shown you all of this, there is none so discreet and wise as you." (Gen 41:39).

Imhotep: later deified / a (demi-)god. Associated with Djoser / Netjerikhet which later name means "divine of the body".
Joseph: called "the all-comely"; "Can we find such a one as this, a man in whom is the Spirit of God?" "Pharaoh said to Joseph, "Because God has shown you all of this" (Gen 41:38); lived to a 110 yrs old (which is a "perfect old age" in Egyptian).

Imhotep: no text mentions his name from after his lifetime to 18th dyn.
The name Djoser only appears in later records. (Djoser in 33rd dyn Sahel/Philae account.)
Joseph: "new pharaoh who knew not Joseph" [12th dyn].

Most of the details about Imhotep are only from much later traditions/legends and not many are from contemporary records. Imhotep might not have been Joseph but another contemporary person (like Potiphar) who was conflated/confounded with Joseph?

NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
Back to Top
Roman Sakhan View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 11-Jan-2019
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 32
  Quote Roman Sakhan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2019 at 19:51
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Joseph_was_Imhotep
Back to Top
Sharrukin View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1314
  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2019 at 00:38
Is there any evidence proving the existence of a high-ranking Jewish official in Egypt (such as a tomb or inscription)

Currently, there is no evidence proving the existence of a high-ranking "Jewish" official in Egypt.   The question itself needs further qualification, for at the time prior to the formation of the ancient Israelite Kingdom and the later Jewish Kingdom, the Egyptians only identified the western Asian peoples by several appellations.   Among theses was 'Aamu, perhaps deriving from West Semitic 'Ammu, meaning "kindred".   Other terms included Setyu "Asiatic" and Heryu Sh'ay "Sand-dwellers" among others.    The problem is that there is no official, especially at such high level of rank, who is identified by any of these terms in inscriptions.    

Joseph was called a "Hebrew" (Gen. 39:11-13, 17) which may reflect the term Habiru (among other renderings) in use in the ancient Middle East from the 18th to the 13th centuries BC.  But, again there is no mention of Habiru officials in Egyptian service.   The context of the usage of the term related to mercenaries and brigands.    

and which Pharaoh did Joseph serve?

There isn't anything concrete.   The biblical text only says that he was "king of Egypt" and "Pharoah".  He had an official named Potiphar "the captain of the guard" but this potential clue is not reflected in inscriptions.    The event of the 7-year famine could've taken place at any time during the 2nd millennium BC.   




Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2019 at 02:48
Originally posted by Sharrukin

Is there any evidence proving the existence of a high-ranking Jewish official in Egypt (such as a tomb or inscription)

Currently, there is no evidence proving the existence of a high-ranking "Jewish" official in Egypt.   The question itself needs further qualification, for at the time prior to the formation of the ancient Israelite Kingdom and the later Jewish Kingdom, the Egyptians only identified the western Asian peoples by several appellations.  ....    The problem is that there is no official, especially at such high level of rank, who is identified by any of these terms in inscriptions.    

....  But, again there is no mention of Habiru officials in Egyptian service.   .....    

and which Pharaoh did Joseph serve?

There isn't anything concrete.   ....  He had an official named Potiphar "the captain of the guard" but this potential clue is not reflected in inscriptions.    The event of the 7-year famine could've taken place at any time during the 2nd millennium BC.   


It is not true that there are no evidences of Joseph story in Egypt. The issue is rather that there are no evidences in the conventional ascribed dates dynasty that conventional chronology claims is contemporary with Joseph (i.e. they claim 15th-16th dynasty supposedly has same dates as Joseph), while there are claimed matches evidences for Joseph in other earlier dynasty but they reject it because they claim that the dynasty supposedly doesn't have same date in their chronology of ascribed dates for Egyptian dynasties (i.e. Joseph has matches in 3rd-4th dynasty but they claim it doesn't have same date as Joseph).

(I.e. One side claims Joseph matches 15th-16th (or 12th) dynasty because supposedly same dates but they admit there is little or no actual matches evidences then.
Other side claims Joseph is 3rd-4th dynasty because many strong matches, but the other side claims the dates don't match.)

Joseph's biblical date is not disputed.
But the Egyptian dynasties dates are disputed (though conventional only dispute between old and short as seen in table here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_chronology ).

and which Pharaoh did Joseph serve?

The extant theories for what dynasty Joseph was in Egypt during are:

2nd dyn (a forum poster, me)
3rd dyn (Walker, Mohler, Wyatt, me) **
4th dyn (Hoeh, me)
5th dyn (Courville, Wyatt, me)

11th dyn (Clarke, Rohl)
12th dyn (Rohl, Alford, Bullen, Courville)
before 13th dyn (Velikovsky)
13th dyn (Bullen)
14th dyn (PSBA)?
15/16th dyn (Bey, Compton, conventional) **
17th dyn (Jerome)
"immediately before 18th dyn" (Bey)
18th dyn (Marquart, Jeremias, Mercer, Barton, Rancke, Boysen, Albright, Osman, Sullivan)
19th dyn (2018 linkedin group comments)
19-20th dyn (Sayce, PSBA?)

22nd dyn (PSBA)?

Never/myth (some).

I've found that one can't answer the questions unless one can prove the dates of the dynasties. They refuse to consider the matches evidences because they only go by the ascribed dates.

Back to Top
Atlantean35 View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 22-Oct-2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 40
  Quote Atlantean35 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2019 at 07:20
The term 'Habiru' may have taken a more pejorative meaning over time. Especially considering that the Hebrew may not have left Egypt on the greatest terms with the northern rulers of Egypt (As opposed to the southern rulers who were likely supporting the Hebrew exodus). So to the northern rulers, they were brigands, and to the southern rulers... mercenaries?


Edited by Atlantean35 - 12-Sep-2019 at 07:28
Back to Top
Sharrukin View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1314
  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2019 at 03:03
This is the biblical evidence regarding the time of Joseph's sojourn:

We start with the baseline date of the beginning of the building of the Temple, in Solomon's 4th year, c. 967 BC

480 years after Israel left Egypt:  c. 1447 BC
430 years of the Sojourn in Egypt:  c. 1877 BC

So, if the highest biblical date is c. 1877 BC (and Joseph) then there is NO WAY that he can be dated to the 2nd-5th dynasties.  The end of the 6th dynasty is pinned by the 4.2 kiloyear event at about 2200 BC.  The end of the 5th would've been about 2350 BC.

Nuff sed.


 
Back to Top
Sharrukin View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1314
  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2019 at 15:47
The term 'Habiru' may have taken a more pejorative meaning over time. Especially considering that the Hebrew may not have left Egypt on the greatest terms with the northern rulers of Egypt (As opposed to the southern rulers who were likely supporting the Hebrew exodus). So to the northern rulers, they were brigands, and to the southern rulers... mercenaries?

What dynasty are we talking about?   If it was 13-17th dynasties (Second Intermediate Period) then this must be Hyksos (northern) and Theban (southern) kingdoms.   If this was (Third Intermediate Period) 21st - 25th dynasties, then you have a northern and southern division during the 21st Dynasty, and several divisions during the 22nd, 23rd, and 24th Dynasties.   The 25th began with a Nubian domination in the south ending with the complete control of the north, but ended in an Assyrian domination in the north and the complete conquest of the south.
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2019 at 21:33
Originally posted by Sharrukin

This is the biblical evidence regarding the time of Joseph's sojourn:

We start with the baseline date of the beginning of the building of the Temple, in Solomon's 4th year, c. 967 BC

480 years after Israel left Egypt:  c. 1447 BC
430 years of the Sojourn in Egypt:  c. 1877 BC



Agreed, though you yourself contended that the 480 yrs might only be 12 x 40.

Originally posted by Sharrukin


So, if the highest biblical date is c. 1877 BC (and Joseph) then there is NO WAY that he can be dated to the 2nd-5th dynasties.  The end of the 6th dynasty is pinned by the 4.2 kiloyear event at about 2200 BC.  The end of the 5th would've been about 2350 BC.

Nuff sed.


I personally don't agree with this. I don't agree with the conventional ascribed dates of the Egyptian dynasties. I don't accept that the 3rd-4th dynasty was "2600s-2400s" bc. The alleged proofs of their dates are few and i personally see they are .

Joseph was early in overall biblical history (and is in 1st book in bible).
12th dynasty is "1800s bc" in conventional chronology but this is too late in overall Egyptian history for Joseph. There is also no traces of Joseph story persons etc in the 12th or the Hyksos dynasties.

NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
Back to Top
Sharrukin View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1314
  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2019 at 23:42

I personally don't agree with this. I don't agree with the conventional ascribed dates of the Egyptian dynasties. I don't accept that the 3rd-4th dynasty was "2600s-2400s" bc. The alleged proofs of their dates are few and i personally see they are .

Well, let's see.........

Turin Canon gives 955 years for dynasties 1 through 8
Palermo Stone gives 640 years for dynasties 1 through the middle of dynasty 5
Turin Canon gives 187 years for dynasty 6 through dynasty 8
     therefore dynasties 1 through 5 lasted 768 years
Turin Canon gives 143 years for dynasty 11
Turin Canon gives 213 years for dynasty 12
Turin Canon gives 100 + x years for dynasty 15 (Hyksos)

So, even if we exclude dynasties 9, 10, 13, and 14 we still have a total of 1411 + years MINIMUM from Dynasty 1 through Dynasty 15.   There is therefore no way that Joseph could be "3rd-4th dynasty", just cannot be possible.  Far too much time to account even for the "430" years of the Sojourn in Egypt to the Exodus.

Joseph was early in overall biblical history (and is in 1st book in bible).

I'm not quite sure if there is any relevence to that.

12th dynasty is "1800s bc" in conventional chronology but this is too late in overall Egyptian history for Joseph. There is also no traces of Joseph story persons etc in the 12th or the Hyksos dynasties.

I never said that I place Joseph in the 12th dynasty, only that the biblical data places him about that time.    However your arguement of "no traces of Joseph" in the 12th or Hyksos dynasties is just as true in the "3rd-4th" Dynasties.  There's NOTHING there!!!!!  And even placing him at such remote time totally truncates BOTH biblical and inscriptional evidence to the extreme.
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2019 at 18:09
Originally posted by Sharrukin


However your arguement of "no traces of Joseph" in the 12th or Hyksos dynasties is just as true in the "3rd-4th" Dynasties.  There's NOTHING there!!!!!


I don't agree that there are no matches evidences for Joseph in the 3rd-4th dynasties (if people were to look there like i and some others have), but it is too big a topic for me to debate and i don't know as much as i previously thought i do. I am pretty sure that Jacob matches Khufu/Cheops.... 



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 30-Sep-2019 at 01:07
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
Back to Top
Atlantean35 View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 22-Oct-2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 40
  Quote Atlantean35 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2019 at 00:20
Originally posted by Sharrukin


The term 'Habiru' may have taken a more pejorative meaning over time. Especially considering that the Hebrew may not have left Egypt on the greatest terms with the northern rulers of Egypt (As opposed to the southern rulers who were likely supporting the Hebrew exodus). So to the northern rulers, they were brigands, and to the southern rulers... mercenaries?


What dynasty are we talking about?   If it was 13-17th dynasties (Second Intermediate Period) then this must be Hyksos (northern) and Theban (southern) kingdoms.   If this was (Third Intermediate Period) 21st - 25th dynasties, then you have a northern and southern division during the 21st Dynasty, and several divisions during the 22nd, 23rd, and 24th Dynasties.   The 25th began with a Nubian domination in the south ending with the complete control of the north, but ended in an Assyrian domination in the north and the complete conquest of the south.
I'm not at the point of being that specific yet. But I'm leaning towards thinking it could be none of those dynasties you mentioned, but rather an unseen or unrecorded administration that were the nominal rulers of Egypt but were being challenged by an ancient internal military faction from the south (originating from the 'Ta-Seti'). It's this dynamic I see between northern and southern factions within Egypt that could help unravel the timeline (or not).

I can already tell from the story of the Exodus that the northern faction likely had horses. The southern faction did not. However, the southern faction likely had ships, as would the northern faction.

We know the Philistines were on the coast of the Canaan even at the time of Isaac. They were likely associated with the northern faction, and may be where we get the understanding that Canaan was under Egyptian control during the time of the Exodus. So basically, we can say that the Philistines were the northern faction of Egypt. It's the elegant solution.


Edited by Atlantean35 - 29-Sep-2019 at 01:56
Back to Top
Sharrukin View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1314
  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2019 at 13:45
Well when you mention Ta-Seti, you are talking about a period of time at the beginning of Egyptian history, with Dynasty I.    Ta-Seti existed beginning before the unification of Egypt in Nubia, and was conquered by king Den of the Egyptian 1st Dynasty by about 3000 BC.  The state ceased to exist.   Instead, the Egyptian records speak just about Nubian tribes after that.   Nubia never rose again.   It was Kush, further south which rose, but that was first evident 1400 years later during the Hyksos period and 700 years later after that.

The reference to Philistines was still future.   Hence the solution cannot be elegant because Ta-Seti existed early in Egyptian history while Philistines were millennia later.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.051 seconds.