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Futhark and Gokturk Runes

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Seljuk View Drop Down
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  Quote Seljuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Futhark and Gokturk Runes
    Posted: 05-May-2005 at 15:57

There are three ancient rune stones in Sweden whose inscriptions make absolutely no sense in Swedish but appears to be carved in Turkish in Gokturk alphabet.

Did Gokturks carved their way to Norseland or sent emisseries to them . What do you think?

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chaos/4103/futhark.html


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  Quote Feramez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2005 at 16:53
Those stones are Turkish but are in Sweden because they were discovered in Mongolia by a Swedish explorer in the mid-late 1700's.
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  Quote Feramez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2005 at 16:53
By the way, welcome to AllEmpires.
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  Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2005 at 09:51

Complete nonsense. The Kylver Stone has no message, but simply contains the older runic script fuarkgwhnijpRstbemlh and the word sueus (Probably the name of the dead)

The Mjbro stone reads frawaradaR ana hahai sl*ginaR which means "Advisor of lords slain on (his) steed"

The Istaby stone reads afatR hariwulafa / hauwulafR haeruwulafiR warait runaR aiaR

meaning "In memory of Haerulf - Hadulv, Hjorulv's son, wrote these runes".

None of these stones are from Mongolia but are found in Sweden. Also, the germanic runes were used earlier than the Gk-turkic ones (the germanic peoples developed the runes inspired by greek and roman characters), so if there were any relation, it would be the nomads who got it from the germanics peoples andnot the other way around...

Originally posted by Seljuk

There are three ancient rune stones in Sweden whose inscriptions make absolutely no sense in Swedish but appears to be carved in Turkish in Gokturk alphabet.

Did Gokturks carved their way to Norseland or sent emisseries to them . What do you think?

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chaos/4103/futhark.html



Edited by Mangudai
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  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2005 at 02:58

 

How old is the oldest rune in Scandinavia?

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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2005 at 07:58
Well, I can't speak for all of Scandinavia, but the oldest runestone found in Norway date to about 400 AD. These runes were based on the Elder Futhark (abbreviation for the rune alphabets) of Germanic origin, first seen further south on the continent about 200 AD. Runologists believe these first runes were invented by a German under the influence of the Roman alphabet, which there is no reason to doubt as far as I can see.

As for Turkish runes, I didn't know the Turk tribes carved such things at all.

Edited by Reginmund
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  Quote Feramez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2005 at 12:04
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2005 at 13:00
"Because of a superficial resemblance to the Runic alphabet, the alphabet is also known as Orkhon or Turkic runes."

Not so superficial, some of those signs could be taken straight out of the runic alphabet.

See for yourselves:

The Elder Futhark runic alphabet

I found 7 identical matches and 2 which would be identical as well if you just reversed them.

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  Quote Kenaney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2005 at 13:39

Originally posted by Reginmund

"Because of a superficial resemblance to the Runic alphabet, the alphabet is also known as Orkhon or Turkic runes."

Not so superficial, some of those signs could be taken straight out of the runic alphabet.

See for yourselves:

The Elder Futhark runic alphabet

I found 7 identical matches and 2 which would be identical as well if you just reversed them.

Wth?? do you mean those letters are Scandinavian alphabet or something? Some of those orkhun scripts are even found in the Netherlands (it whas on tv few years ago) and for the read of what whas scripted on those stones they called Turkish (Uighur) Prof. Kazim Mirsan to read what it was.  

OUT OF LIMIT
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2005 at 13:56
No, but the alphabets are, as you can see, a little similar.

As for the Orkhun scripts in the Netherlands, I've never heard of anything like it before. The thought of the Germanic tribes being influenced by the far-off Turks seems a little strange to say the least.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2005 at 14:15
well guys, if those Runes found in europe look like Orkhun runes, can those stone-cravings be read and do they actualy mean somethign in Gk-trk? i mean just because the letters look identical doesn't mean they're Gktrk.
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2005 at 14:26

Turkish (Uighur) Prof. Kazim Mirsan

Prof.? This guy is a civil engineer. He also believes that he reads that Turks have founded empires in Central Asia around 10000 BC on cave paintings in Central Asia.

Among other things he claims that he has derived a an equation better than Schroedinger's, thus revolutionising quantum mechanics...

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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2005 at 14:54
No wonder I found the whole idea strange then.

And don't get me wrong, I never said there was any relationship between the Orkhun and Scandinavian runes, I only pointed out the fact that they have some similarities.
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  Quote Hrodger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2005 at 16:20
Originally posted by Alparslan

How old is the oldest rune in Scandinavia?

The oldest incriptions in Old Futhark has been found in Denmark and is
dated to ca. 150AD.
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  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2005 at 01:24

Here you are one Turkish researcher who claims that some runic stones in Europe are written with Turkish runes and Turkish.

http://www.antalyaonline.net/futhark/

He explained in detail how he read it. But I cannot judge if he can be acceptable or not.

Could those runes be related with Huns or proto-Huns? (asked just for speculation) or just contrary Gokturks may learn this alphabet via Huns. But in both cases it shows a relation between eastern and western barbars.



Edited by Alparslan
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  Quote Kuu-ukko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2005 at 08:29
How can futhark be derived from Orkhon runes if it has just been pointed out that they are atleast 600 years older than the Orkhon ones?

Also, on the antalyaonline link, the theory on common ancestry is false. The futhark derive from Etruscan, from Phoenician. Orkhon runes derive from the Sogdian script.
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  Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2005 at 08:35
The orkhon and futhark runes look similar not because of an alledged common ancestry, but due to their common usage. Both alafabets were developed to be carved in wood or stone, therefore the characters appear sharp and pointy. The other similarities are just pure coincidence
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2005 at 11:04

Originally posted by Kuu-ukko

How can futhark be derived from Orkhon runes if it has just been pointed out that they are atleast 600 years older than the Orkhon ones?

Also, on the antalyaonline link, the theory on common ancestry is false. The futhark derive from Etruscan, from Phoenician. Orkhon runes derive from the Sogdian script.

I dont think Orkhon Alphabet was derived from Sogdian, because they have no symbols or any other things in common. Maybe you mean the Uighur alphabet was derived from Sogdian alphabet, because it was.

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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2005 at 12:31

And don't get me wrong, I never said there was any relationship between the Orkhun and Scandinavian runes, I only pointed out the fact that they have some similarities.

Maybe there is. They are indeed quite similar. I think there are two main reasons for this similarity:

1. As Mangudai writes, they are created in a similar way (carved on stone), so they look similar.

2. All alphabets on the planet trace back to a Phoenician-like Semitic alphabet which originated in the Sinai peninsula. There are exceptions like the Chinese writing system, but the Turkic runes are not based on them. Scandinavian runes are older than Turkic ones, because Scandinavia is closer to the original alphabet. But his does not mean that Turkics copied the Germanic runes. AFAIK, there is no similarity between the sounds, just the shapes are similar.  

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  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2005 at 17:03

It seems like there is a relation between Turkic and Hungarian runes. This relation is much more likely than Germanic runes of course.....

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/hungarian_runes.htm

"Origin

Hungarian runes (Szkely Rovsrs) are descended from the Turkic script (Kk Turki) used in Central Asia. They were used by the Szkler Magyars in Hungary before Istvn, the first Christian king of Hungary, ordered all pre-Christian writings to be destroyed. In remote parts of Transylvania however, the runes were still used up until the 1850s."

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/O/Ol/Old_Hunga rian_script.htm

http://www.newhungarianvoice.com/News/2003Fall_Runes.asp

I have found this interesting!!!

"There is an old form of Hungarian writing that is presently going through a rebirth in scholarly circles and among code and runic enthusiasts. Rovsrs (from rovs incised and rs writing) predates Hungarys adoption of the Latin alphabet and is a descendant from the Kk Turki script used in Central Asia.

Rovsrs relics have been found throughout Hungary, Transylvania and to a lesser extent Asia and other parts of Europe but the most famous is a 181kg piece of sandstone found in Nova Scotia, Canada in the 1700s. The 78cm x 70cm x 50cm stone had ancient runes carved into it, of which a portion had been worn down. Although the text was unidentifiable using Scandinavian runes, it was strongly believed that it was a Viking relic left from an expedition of Eric the Red or his son, Leif Ericsson. It wasnt until 1984 that Silvia Luis, a Hungarian runic writing expert, happened across and deciphered the text - it read: son jrt e hejen is sok trsval (son traveled through this area with many of his companions). It is widely believed that the worn portion originally read Erics-son referring to Leif Ericsson. It has been long contended that one of Leif Ericssons men, referred to only as Tyrker, was an rpdian Magyar. Experts have established that the name Tyrker came from a Byzantine, Arab and European designation of the early Magyars as Tourks this reference was due to the Kk Turks of Central Asia. An additional theory exists stating that after his expeditions with Ericsson, Tyrker returned to Hungary with maps and knowledge of the new world."

http://www1.tpgi.com.au/etr/rovas/inf/rovasE.html

This Hungarian link is also very interesting!!!

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