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The "wicked and evil " Turks-1453

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Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The "wicked and evil " Turks-1453
    Posted: 30-May-2005 at 12:23

Originally posted by Constantine XI

I read of a Scotsman who apparently was on the Byzantine side. Grant was his name and traditionally he was considered a German though more recent scholarship (D. Nicol) claims it was more likely he was a Scot. From my memory of Nicol's book which last read 5 years ago he did a great service to the Christian side by helping foil the Ottoman attempts at mining the walls. Dunno if thats your bloke but hope this helps.

Runciman in his Fall of Constantinople 1453 cites Sphrantzes' chronicle as well as Leonard of Chios' letters in saying that Johannes Grant was perhaps a Scotsman who came through Germany and came to the city in the company of Giovanni Giustiniani, the Genoese nobleman who helped in the defense.  Mark Bartusis in his Late Byzantine Army book also cites Sphrantzes and says Grant was a German.  Donald Nicol in his Last Centuries of Byzantium is slightly less prepared to determine Grant's nationality and says he could be a Scotsman or a German.  Where he is mentioned, though, his contribution to the defense of Constantinople is immense.  Grant and the Grand Duke Loukas Notaras detected the Serbian miners of the Turks as they dug under the Blachernae Wall near the Caligarian Gate.  A fierce battle ensued in the tunnels under the wall and Grant's men flushed the miners out.

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  Quote Jazz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2005 at 22:27
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

Runciman in his Fall of Constantinople 1453 cites Sphrantzes' chronicle as well as Leonard of Chios' letters in saying that Johannes Grant was perhaps a Scotsman who came through Germany and came to the city in the company of Giovanni Giustiniani, the Genoese nobleman who helped in the defense.  Mark Bartusis in his Late Byzantine Army book also cites Sphrantzes and says Grant was a German.  Donald Nicol in his Last Centuries of Byzantium is slightly less prepared to determine Grant's nationality and says he could be a Scotsman or a German.  Where he is mentioned, though, his contribution to the defense of Constantinople is immense.  Grant and the Grand Duke Loukas Notaras detected the Serbian miners of the Turks as they dug under the Blachernae Wall near the Caligarian Gate.  A fierce battle ensued in the tunnels under the wall and Grant's men flushed the miners out.


Correct - I recall this now - I had read Runciman's book a couple of years ago....
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2005 at 05:11
Originally posted by Yiannis


I believe he was Hungarian named Hurbanus (sp?). He first offered his services to the Byzantine emperor but when he didn't get the money he was asking, he moved to the Sultan's camp. He's the one who minted the great cannons that destroyed Constantinople's walls.


There's seems to be confusion what nationality the engineer Urban was.
While both Nicol and Runciman state that he was Hungarian, J.J. Norwich mentions that he was German.
Edward Gibbon thinks he even might have been Danish:
"A founder of cannon, a Dane or Hungarian, who had been almost starved in the Greek service, deserted to the Moslems, and was liberally entertained by the Turkish sultan."( Chapter LXVIII,Part II )
He could have been both , of course, a Hungarian of German origin, as some regions in the Hungarian Kingdom, especially the area around Herrmannstadt, today Sibiu in Rumania, had been settled by German immigrants, called into the country by King Geza II in the 13th century.
Not that I want to claim this fellow, but could somebody shed more light on this?



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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2005 at 16:04

what is his full name?

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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2005 at 14:55

Originally posted by Komnenos

[QUOTE=Yiannis] 
Not that I want to claim this fellow, but could somebody shed more light on this?

In a fascinating book about the evolution of gunpowder weapons in the late Middle Ages, A History of Greek Fire and Gunpowder, J.R. Partington states the following using Chalkokondyles (a late Byzantine historian) as a source.

"Chalkokondyles says the maker of the gun was a Dacian deserter from the Greeks named Urban ('Orbanos Dax')." (125).

Mark Bartusis specifically labels Urban a Hungarian, as does Runciman, Nicol, and David Nicholle, without exception.  As for Partington calling Urban a 'deserter', I would say he was more of a mercenary for hire, just like many of the other soldiers involved in the Fall of 1453.  The historians I mention all relate the story of how Urban first offered his services to Constantine XI, a Christian ruler, who had to refuse because of a shortage of funds.  Urban in turn went to Mehmed II who was able to hire him.  This also demonstrates the Ottomans' ability to recognize talent and adapt it towards their own uses (and I am NOT saying the Ottomans did not come up with anything original, don't get me wrong! ).

Edit: Had to transliterate the Greek characters!



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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2005 at 05:31
Maybe we can leave it here, and my illusion intact: A Hungarian with possible German ancestry, as there is no smoke without a fire.
And "Vorsprung durch Technik" engraved on every cannon ball, as it descended on the ancient city.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 15:54
Dacian...that can refer to Transsylvania indeed, so he most likely was a German settler in Hungary.
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 06:10

 

I have read in the book Johannes Angelos by Mika Waltari that hungarian noblemen helped to install the ottoman artillery. I have never heard this before. Is this true? It is difficult me to beleive that the ottoman arrtillerymen need  foreign expertise.

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  Quote Menippos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 07:23
Originally posted by Komnenos

Maybe we can leave it here, and my illusion intact: A Hungarian with possible German ancestry, as there is no smoke without a fire.
And "Vorsprung durch Technik" engraved on every cannon ball, as it descended on the ancient city.

LOL - and then the Germans complain about the invasion of Turkish immigrants in Germany...
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 10:23
Originally posted by Menippos


LOL - and then the Germans complain about the invasion of Turkish immigrants in Germany...


Don't over-generalise, some Germans might complain about it, right-wing lunatics, xenophobes, the gutter press, the usual suspects, and there are some issues about integration and multi-cultural society,... but on the whole, we need each other and we know that.

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  Quote Menippos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 11:25
Originally posted by Komnenos

Originally posted by Menippos


LOL - and then the Germans complain about the invasion of Turkish immigrants in Germany...

Don't over-generalise, some Germans might complain about it, right-wing lunatics, xenophobes, the gutter press, the usual suspects, and there are some issues about integration multi-cultural society,... but on the whole, we need each other and we know that.

Yes, I agree, and thet is the way I feel about the Albanians and other immigrants in Greece, and I have posted somewhere a more thorough account of this view of mine. Long story short, I believe that they are good for the economy.
But this belongs to another thread and I would not wish to mess up the subject of this one.
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  Quote Richard XIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 11:52
Tsar
He could have been both , of course, a Hungarian of German origin, as some regions in the Hungarian Kingdom, especially the area around Herrmannstadt, today Sibiu in Rumania, had been settled by German immigrants, called into the country by King Geza II in the 13th century.

In Romania we claim that he was romanian and he offered his services to Byzantium first but the lack of money  makes him to pass otherside.  As usual we are on both sides in the same time .
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  Quote Menippos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 15:55
He reminds me of another guy, some millennia before...
Efialtis was his name...
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 04:04
Originally posted by Richard XIII


In Romania we claim that he was romanian
How typical Romanian for the Romanian, Hungarian for the Hungarian, german for the others.
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  Quote Richard XIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 06:57
Originally posted by Raider

Originally posted by Richard XIII


In Romania we claim that he was romanian
How typical Romanian for the Romanian, Hungarian for the Hungarian, german for the others.


Let's see was an EU citizen or a future one.
"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."

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  Quote Richard XIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 06:58
say
"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."

Albert Einstein
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  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 09:16

Mehmed II Khan had "ah" cannons to destroy the walls of Istanbul. Those were invented for him by a Hungarian, Ibrahim Mteferrika as I know...

The inventor of the cannons was "Urban" from Hungary so the cannons also called as "The Urban's Cannons".

However at the beginning of the battle Urban died and the barrels  of the cannons cracked so they couldn't be used so much.

Ibrahim Mteferrika is the man who brought printery to Turkey

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 16:23
Originally posted by Jagatai Khan

Ibrahim Mteferrika

Mntefering?  

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2005 at 00:31
Originally posted by Jagatai Khan

Mehmed II Khan had "ah" cannons to destroy the walls of Istanbul. Those were invented for him by a Hungarian, Ibrahim Mteferrika as I know...

The inventor of the cannons was "Urban" from Hungary so the cannons also called as "The Urban's Cannons".

However at the beginning of the battle Urban died and the barrels  of the cannons cracked so they couldn't be used so much.

Ibrahim Mteferrika is the man who brought printery to Turkey

Yeah, I think I was wrong, sorry...

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  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 14:02
Originally posted by Komnenos

Originally posted by eaglecap


On the fith of May, the wicked and evil Turks went and place a great cannon on the top of the hill above Pera, and with these cannons they began to fire over Pera at our fleet, which lay by the boom.


A typical Venetian, this Nicolo Barbaro(sic!), not concerned about the city and people of Constantinople, who were the main target of the Turks, but about the couple of Venetian merchant vessels who got up in the siege. More worried about the loss of profit than the fate of the city.
Venice was more responsible for the demise of the Byzantine Empire than any other nation, if you want to call a gang of cut throat hawkers a "nation".
Great place, Venice, but a very dodgy past!


true I love your avatar Drug Tito the good old times
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