Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Byzantine Emperor
Arch Duke
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios
Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1800
|
Quote Reply
Topic: The "wicked and evil " Turks-1453 Posted: 30-May-2005 at 12:23 |
Originally posted by Constantine XI
I read of a Scotsman who apparently was on the Byzantine side. Grant was his name and traditionally he was considered a German though more recent scholarship (D. Nicol) claims it was more likely he was a Scot. From my memory of Nicol's book which last read 5 years ago he did a great service to the Christian side by helping foil the Ottoman attempts at mining the walls. Dunno if thats your bloke but hope this helps. |
Runciman in his Fall of Constantinople 1453 cites Sphrantzes' chronicle as well as Leonard of Chios' letters in saying that Johannes Grant was perhaps a Scotsman who came through Germany and came to the city in the company of Giovanni Giustiniani, the Genoese nobleman who helped in the defense. Mark Bartusis in his Late Byzantine Army book also cites Sphrantzes and says Grant was a German. Donald Nicol in his Last Centuries of Byzantium is slightly less prepared to determine Grant's nationality and says he could be a Scotsman or a German. Where he is mentioned, though, his contribution to the defense of Constantinople is immense. Grant and the Grand Duke Loukas Notaras detected the Serbian miners of the Turks as they dug under the Blachernae Wall near the Caligarian Gate. A fierce battle ensued in the tunnels under the wall and Grant's men flushed the miners out.
|
|
|
Jazz
Baron
Joined: 29-Mar-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 410
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-May-2005 at 22:27 |
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor
Runciman in his Fall of Constantinople 1453
cites Sphrantzes' chronicle as well as Leonard of Chios' letters in
saying that Johannes Grant was perhaps a Scotsman who came through
Germany and came to the city in the company of Giovanni Giustiniani,
the Genoese nobleman who helped in the defense. Mark Bartusis in
his Late Byzantine Army book also cites Sphrantzes and says Grant was a German. Donald Nicol in his Last Centuries of Byzantium
is slightly less prepared to determine Grant's nationality and says he
could be a Scotsman or a German. Where he is mentioned, though,
his contribution to the defense of Constantinople is immense.
Grant and the Grand Duke Loukas Notaras detected the Serbian miners of
the Turks as they dug under the Blachernae Wall near the Caligarian
Gate. A fierce battle ensued in the tunnels under the wall and
Grant's men flushed the miners out. |
Correct - I recall this now - I had read Runciman's book a couple of years ago....
|
|
|
Komnenos
Tsar
Retired AE Administrator
Joined: 20-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4361
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 31-May-2005 at 05:11 |
Originally posted by Yiannis
I believe he was Hungarian named Hurbanus (sp?). He first offered his services to the Byzantine emperor but when he didn't get the money he was asking, he moved to the Sultan's camp. He's the one who minted the great cannons that destroyed Constantinople's walls. |
There's seems to be confusion what nationality the engineer Urban was.
While both Nicol and Runciman state that he was Hungarian, J.J. Norwich mentions that he was German.
Edward Gibbon thinks he even might have been Danish:
" A founder of cannon, a Dane or Hungarian, who had been almost starved in the Greek service, deserted to the Moslems, and was liberally entertained by the Turkish sultan."( Chapter LXVIII,Part II )
He could have been both , of course, a Hungarian of German origin, as some regions in the Hungarian Kingdom, especially the area around Herrmannstadt, today Sibiu in Rumania, had been settled by German immigrants, called into the country by King Geza II in the 13th century.
Not that I want to claim this fellow, but could somebody shed more light on this?
Edited by Komnenos
|
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
|
|
Temujin
King
Sirdar Bahadur
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 31-May-2005 at 16:04 |
|
|
Byzantine Emperor
Arch Duke
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios
Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1800
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Jun-2005 at 14:55 |
Originally posted by Komnenos
[QUOTE=Yiannis] Not that I want to claim this fellow, but could somebody shed more light on this?
|
In a fascinating book about the evolution of gunpowder weapons in the late Middle Ages, A History of Greek Fire and Gunpowder, J.R. Partington states the following using Chalkokondyles (a late Byzantine historian) as a source.
"Chalkokondyles says the maker of the gun was a Dacian deserter from the Greeks named Urban ('Orbanos Dax')." (125).
Mark Bartusis specifically labels Urban a Hungarian, as does Runciman, Nicol, and David Nicholle, without exception. As for Partington calling Urban a 'deserter', I would say he was more of a mercenary for hire, just like many of the other soldiers involved in the Fall of 1453. The historians I mention all relate the story of how Urban first offered his services to Constantine XI, a Christian ruler, who had to refuse because of a shortage of funds. Urban in turn went to Mehmed II who was able to hire him. This also demonstrates the Ottomans' ability to recognize talent and adapt it towards their own uses (and I am NOT saying the Ottomans did not come up with anything original, don't get me wrong! ).
Edit: Had to transliterate the Greek characters!
Edited by Byzantine Emperor
|
|
|
Komnenos
Tsar
Retired AE Administrator
Joined: 20-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4361
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Jun-2005 at 05:31 |
Maybe we can leave it here, and my illusion intact: A Hungarian with possible German ancestry, as there is no smoke without a fire.
And "Vorsprung durch Technik" engraved on every cannon ball, as it descended on the ancient city.
|
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
|
|
Temujin
King
Sirdar Bahadur
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 15:54 |
Dacian...that can refer to Transsylvania indeed, so he most likely was a German settler in Hungary.
|
|
Raider
General
Joined: 06-Jun-2005
Location: Hungary
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 804
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 06:10 |
I have read in the book Johannes Angelos by Mika Waltari that hungarian noblemen helped to install the ottoman artillery. I have never heard this before. Is this true? It is difficult me to beleive that the ottoman arrtillerymen need foreign expertise.
|
|
Menippos
Chieftain
Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1134
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 07:23 |
|
CARRY NOTHING
|
|
Komnenos
Tsar
Retired AE Administrator
Joined: 20-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4361
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 10:23 |
|
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
|
|
Menippos
Chieftain
Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1134
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 11:25 |
Originally posted by Komnenos
Originally posted by Menippos
LOL - and then the Germans complain about the invasion of Turkish immigrants in Germany...
|
Don't over-generalise, some Germans might complain about it,
right-wing lunatics, xenophobes, the gutter press, the usual suspects,
and there are some issues about integration multi-cultural society,...
but on the whole, we need each other and we know that. |
Yes, I agree, and thet is the way I feel about the Albanians and other
immigrants in Greece, and I have posted somewhere a more thorough
account of this view of mine. Long story short, I believe that they are
good for the economy.
But this belongs to another thread and I would not wish to mess up the subject of this one.
|
CARRY NOTHING
|
|
Richard XIII
Colonel
Joined: 06-Jun-2005
Location: Romania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 651
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 11:52 |
|
"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."
Albert Einstein
|
|
Menippos
Chieftain
Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1134
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 15:55 |
He reminds me of another guy, some millennia before...
Efialtis was his name...
|
CARRY NOTHING
|
|
Raider
General
Joined: 06-Jun-2005
Location: Hungary
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 804
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 04:04 |
Originally posted by Richard XIII
In Romania we claim that he was romanian
|
How typical Romanian for the Romanian, Hungarian for the Hungarian, german for the others.
|
|
Richard XIII
Colonel
Joined: 06-Jun-2005
Location: Romania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 651
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 06:57 |
|
"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."
Albert Einstein
|
|
Richard XIII
Colonel
Joined: 06-Jun-2005
Location: Romania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 651
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 06:58 |
say
|
"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."
Albert Einstein
|
|
Jagatai Khan
Chieftain
Jeune Turc
Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1270
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 09:16 |
Mehmed II Khan had "ah" cannons to destroy the walls of Istanbul. Those were invented for him by a Hungarian, Ibrahim Mteferrika as I know... |
The inventor of the cannons was "Urban" from Hungary so the cannons also called as "The Urban's Cannons".
However at the beginning of the battle Urban died and the barrels of the cannons cracked so they couldn't be used so much.
Ibrahim Mteferrika is the man who brought printery to Turkey
|
|
Temujin
King
Sirdar Bahadur
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 16:23 |
Originally posted by Jagatai Khan
Ibrahim Mteferrika |
Mntefering?
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 16-Jun-2005 at 00:31 |
Originally posted by Jagatai Khan
Mehmed II Khan had "ah" cannons to destroy the walls of Istanbul. Those were invented for him by a Hungarian, Ibrahim Mteferrika as I know... |
The inventor of the cannons was "Urban" from Hungary so the cannons also called as "The Urban's Cannons".
However at the beginning of the battle Urban died and the barrels of the cannons cracked so they couldn't be used so much.
Ibrahim Mteferrika is the man who brought printery to Turkey
|
Yeah, I think I was wrong, sorry...
|
|
ill_teknique
Colonel
Joined: 28-Jun-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 636
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 14:02 |
Originally posted by Komnenos
Originally posted by eaglecap
On the fith of May, the wicked and evil Turks went and place a
great cannon on the top of the hill above Pera, and with these cannons
they began to fire over Pera at our fleet, which lay by the boom.
|
A typical Venetian, this Nicolo Barbaro(sic!), not concerned about
the city and people of Constantinople, who were the main target of the
Turks, but about the couple of Venetian merchant vessels who got up in
the siege. More worried about the loss of profit than the fate of the
city.
Venice was more responsible for the demise of the Byzantine Empire
than any other nation, if you want to call a gang of cut throat hawkers
a "nation".
Great place, Venice, but a very dodgy past!
|
true I love your avatar Drug Tito the good old times
|
|