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Would the Soviets still conquer Nazis without USA?

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  Quote heyamigos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Would the Soviets still conquer Nazis without USA?
    Posted: 04-Sep-2012 at 20:57
When the American forces landed on Normandy, the Soviets were already on the offensive against the Nazis.  One can argue, that had the Americans and British not got involved on the western front, the Soviets themselves may have singlehandedly defeat the Nazis or forced them into a hasty surrender?
 
But, the British victories in Northern Africa were factors too. 
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2012 at 21:06
No outside help=Nazi Germany conquers the Soviet Union. Without the diatractions of Africa, Western Europe and Asia Germany could've easily crushed Russia. Not to mention the US supplies sent to Russia.
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  Quote Toltec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2012 at 21:14
It's not really an argument, I don't know any modern military historian that thinks otherwise. 80% of all the fighting in the whole war took place on the eastern front, not to mention, most of the best troops and equipment. The D-Day landings undoubtedly hastened the German defeat, but by no more than 6 months.

Probably a more telling analyses of WWII is military production and economic bases. In these very interesting figures emerge, that the US, Britain and the USSR were each outproducing Germany individually in equipment and arms by at least double. The Germans never really had any hope they were so far outmatched, however a completely outmatched Germany doesn't make for great TV and film so they have to be made to look stronger than they really were.

Another interesting fact that completely rewrites the Hollywood telling of the war is 80% of the Japanese of army, all their best troops and heavy equipment were in China and over over 60% of all the fighting in that theatre happened there. 


Edited by Toltec - 04-Sep-2012 at 21:18
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2012 at 05:49
No. Russia was in a very dire position, with the military force decapitated during Stalin's political cleansings; the infrastructure was in ruins, in terms of military equipment was pituful. What Russia had was soldiers - underfed, underprovided with weapons, just ive meat to stop the bullets, millions of those; and no regard for human life. That's why USSR could afford to weather Germany, but wihout the USA in the game even she wouldn't make it for too long, there is only so much people can do against mashines.

The epic 'Katuisha"s for example, AFAIK, were an American engineering, the Americans gave the plans to the Russians. of course in all Russians history books is explicitely said that no one fought the Germans but they.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2012 at 06:29
Originally posted by hey amigos

When the American forces landed on Normandy, the Soviets were already on the offensive against the Nazis.  One can argue, that had the Americans and British not got involved on the western front, the Soviets themselves may have single handedly defeat the Nazis or forced them into a hasty surrender?
 
But, the British victories in Northern Africa were factors too. 
 
 
If ya believe in the academic credentials and research efforts of the noted scholar, author and historian on Russia (WW2 in particular), Geoffrey Roberts...the answer is yes.
 
But this presupposes no conflict in the east. And like everyone else, he has his critics to include J. Haslam. A noted Professor of International Relations viz Stanford and  the Un. of Cambridge.
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2012 at 12:35
Based on what I have read, and what I have determined about the sheer volume and type of materials sent to the Soviets through Lend Lease, I think the best that could have been achieved would have been a stalemate.

The Soviet war industry depending on not having to manufacture all of the items they received from the Allies.  Without those materials, the Soviet industry had to cover all of the bases, and that would have been a huge additional burden unlikely to be adequately met.
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  Quote heyamigos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2012 at 07:07
I read some Nazis were only half heartedly fighting the Anglo American forces and often surrendered in hopes that they would take Berlin before the Soviets did?
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  Quote Bobby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2012 at 11:18
Originally posted by Mountain Man

Based on what I have read, and what I have determined about the sheer volume and type of materials sent to the Soviets through Lend Lease, I think the best that could have been achieved would have been a stalemate.

The Soviet war industry depending on not having to manufacture all of the items they received from the Allies.  Without those materials, the Soviet industry had to cover all of the bases, and that would have been a huge additional burden unlikely to be adequately met.
I would agree with the above. I did a research paper on this very issue some time ago and I remember being overwhelmed by the sheer volume of materials entering the Soviet Union from American hands. I remember something like 100 18 wheelers a day with all manner of goods, including food, medical supplies, and military stuff. Without this aid the Soviets would have been hard put to mount a counter-offensive. Clearly America's entry into the war tipped the scales, without her entry the outcome would have been in doubt.
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  Quote Bobby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2012 at 11:26
Here is a link which speaks to the massive amount of aid from America to the Soviets.
 
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  Quote Toltec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2012 at 11:59
Most American aid arrived long after the course of the war had changed in Russia favour and the Soviets were winning. Also the earliest American aid was extremely  poor quality, obsolete equipment the Americans were scrapping and replacing in their own army. For example the Russians who were using KVs and T34s found the Stuart tank to be somewhat of a joke and it's only real value in its steel, America's latest tanks were inferior to Soviet ones and it were sending its oldest ones. On the other hand British aid arrive a couple of years when Russia was desperate and the quality of it was higher than the early American stuff. American aid didn't effect the outcome of the war, the Russians were winning, but it did effect the speed of this Russian victory.

There used to be a great list of aid to the Soviets online listing equipment and more importantly arrival date. Sadly the website has gone and now we only have lists of equipment which omit the date it arrived lending a false impression to its importance. I often wonder if this is deliberate. 


Edited by Toltec - 18-Sep-2012 at 12:05
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  Quote Bobby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2012 at 13:20
Originally posted by Toltec

Most American aid arrived long after the course of the war had changed in Russia favour and the Soviets were winning. Also the earliest American aid was extremely  poor quality, obsolete equipment the Americans were scrapping and replacing in their own army. For example the Russians who were using KVs and T34s found the Stuart tank to be somewhat of a joke and it's only real value in its steel, America's latest tanks were inferior to Soviet ones and it were sending its oldest ones. On the other hand British aid arrive a couple of years when Russia was desperate and the quality of it was higher than the early American stuff. American aid didn't effect the outcome of the war, the Russians were winning, but it did effect the speed of this Russian victory.

There used to be a great list of aid to the Soviets online listing equipment and more importantly arrival date. Sadly the website has gone and now we only have lists of equipment which omit the date it arrived lending a false impression to its importance. I often wonder if this is deliberate. 
The following is a list of shipments to the Soviets beginning in 1941 from Wikipedia. Not all of this got there of course, and there might be discrepancies between this and other lists. But you can see from the list the massive volume of aid that fed the Bear in a time of great need. The massive amounts of food alone enabled the Russians to pull the trigger. America gace tremendous resources to the allies during WWII and when it was all over rebuilt Europe and forgave the loans. These facts should not be belittled.
 
Aircraft.............................14,795
Tanks.................................7,056
Jeeps................................51,503
Trucks..............................375,883
Motorcycles..........................35,170
Tractors..............................8,071
Guns..................................8,218
Machine guns........................131,633
Explosives..........................345,735 tons
Building equipment valued.......$10,910,000
Railroad freight cars................11,155
Locomotives...........................1,981
Cargo ships..............................90
Submarine hunters.......................105
Torpedo boats...........................197
Ship engines..........................7,784
Food supplies.....................4,478,000 tons
Machines and equipment.......$1,078,965,000
Noniron metals......................802,000 tons
Petroleum products................2,670,000 tons
Chemicals...........................842,000 tons
Cotton..........................106,893,000 tons
Leather..............................49,860 tons
Tires.............................3,786,000
Army boots.......................15,417,000 pairs

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  Quote Bobby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2012 at 13:42
Originally posted by Toltec

Most American aid arrived long after the course of the war had changed in Russia favour and the Soviets were winning. Also the earliest American aid was extremely  poor quality, obsolete equipment the Americans were scrapping and replacing in their own army. For example the Russians who were using KVs and T34s found the Stuart tank to be somewhat of a joke and it's only real value in its steel, America's latest tanks were inferior to Soviet ones and it were sending its oldest ones. On the other hand British aid arrive a couple of years when Russia was desperate and the quality of it was higher than the early American stuff. American aid didn't effect the outcome of the war, the Russians were winning, but it did effect the speed of this Russian victory.

There used to be a great list of aid to the Soviets online listing equipment and more importantly arrival date. Sadly the website has gone and now we only have lists of equipment which omit the date it arrived lending a false impression to its importance. I often wonder if this is deliberate. 
It's interesting that the American government does not publish the amounts of lend lease, quite curious in fact. But in doing some research I cam across the following link, from a Major Jordan who worked with the Soviets and wrote a book about it after the war. He compiled a list with amounts and dollars amassed from what he said were Soviet records. The list is quite impressive and lends credence to the massive aid Americans sent to Russia.
 
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2012 at 19:52
Ivan's own vehicles weren't bad either. Vast quantities of T-34s were manufactured in factories beyond the Urals that ultimately overwhelmed the Huns
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  Quote Bobby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2012 at 23:26
Originally posted by Nick1986

Ivan's own vehicles weren't bad either. Vast quantities of T-34s were manufactured in factories beyond the Urals that ultimately overwhelmed the Huns
True, the T's coming off the lines in Russia were impressive. But I think what ultimately overwhelmed the 'Huns' was their overreach. Too many fronts, the inability to kill Russia quickly, England's will to fight, backed by her Empire, weak allies in the European theater, and of course America's decision to fight with the allies. The T-34's were mopping up.
 
That said the Russian people were instrumental in destroying the two great tyrants of modern European history. The cost to Napoleonic and Nazi armies in trying to subdue the Great Bear was catastrophic strategically. Hitler didn't know his Napoleon, or perhaps he wanted to surpass him. The Russians didn't care either way, they just took care of business.
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  Quote Toltec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2012 at 00:06
There is a theory that Hitler never intended to invade Russia until he got diagnosed with a terminal illness around 1940 and was given 5-6 years to live. The doctors report is in the archive so the theory could be sound.
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  Quote Bobby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2012 at 13:23
Originally posted by Toltec

There is a theory that Hitler never intended to invade Russia until he got diagnosed with a terminal illness around 1940 and was given 5-6 years to live. The doctors report is in the archive so the theory could be sound.
I've never heard that theory, turns out he did indeed only have 5-6 years to live, disease or not!
 
Hitlers decision to invade Russia, AND his decision not to take Moscow, are two of the most hotly debated military decisions of all time. The man was consumed by hatred, hatred towards Jews, towards communism, and towards non-Aryans. In my view these were handicaps, and led to his inevitable defeat.
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  Quote Cheops Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2012 at 06:52
No, the Nazi's lost because they were forced to fight at two fronts in Europe: the American, Canadian, British etc. from the west and the Soviets from the east. If this didn't happen, the Soviets would not have won from Germany, they probably rather got overrun by German forces themselves!
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2012 at 09:23
Russia is a vast country. Even if its armies are defeated an invader would have to contend with the terrain and weather.
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2012 at 09:48
If t
If its primary cities fall Russi is impotent.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2012 at 12:40
Originally posted by Nick1986

Russia is a vast country. Even if its armies are defeated an invader would have to contend with the terrain and weather.
 
 
 
To a point yes. But terrain is as does momma says. Occupation of terrain is not necessarily a game winner. Destroy or occupy the industrial regions-centers of commerce and communications. Not to mention production sites of raw materials....in the west and Caucus. Anything beyond the Urals as of Dec 41...may or may not make a difference. This is what they attempted and they failed. The Sov counter offensive of Winter 41 saw to that. And before you remind me of the transference of same same beyond the Urals and its subsequent impact; review and research the aid received to do it and the initial impact it had before the aforementioned and in particular that it had after the Stalingrad debacle and Kursk.
 
 
 
 
 
The Hun had shot his bolt. Period. Anybody who believes they were capable of continuing is either delusional or not realizing the now severely restricted options left to them. And these were not most decidedly offensive....cant even make that claim. Certainly not after the Autumn and Winter Sov Ops of 43-44 and the loss of Bryansk and Smolensk. The only minor success was at Kiev and that went nowhere as within weeks the Dnieper line was done by Christmas 43.  Hell by Jan 44, the Socs have knocked then silly and are back on the old Polish-Sov border and the Crimea is only weeks away from falling (with Hube's pocket falling by March this leads to Odessa and then Vestapol).
 
 
 
 
Couple this with still no threat in the east from Nippon and all the rest belongs in alternate history. Not here.
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