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Religious persecutions

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Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Religious persecutions
    Posted: 03-Sep-2012 at 15:02
Much is being noted about faith based persecutions recently on the web. To be PC is to note 'this one or that one' from history and attempt the inane nexus. What's often forgotten or obfuscated by Islam or Hindu radicals, for example, and others...including oligarchic-theological states leadership; who have indeed committed persecutions against other faiths to the present day.....is that they are not alone..were not alone...in being in the recipient status. 
Then or now.
See these links as an example.
 
 
 
 
 
 
So when I see people moaning, on the net about the 'lost this or that' as committed by one faith base group or another over the course of time....I attempt to see it objectively. Which is to say the response historical of the varying cultural growth, societies and theological impasses and interactions, that have developed during the eons. And I then attempt to study the causation and effect of the contextual era in which it occurred. And the varying reasons why it might have been done. While, if at all possible, avoiding justifications, condemnations or approbations, for or against, in the modern contextual sense.
 
 
 
 
The latter is for wannabe moral philosophers, theological apologists or the inadequately trained amateurs and revisionists. And those who adopt glamorization and rejectionism instead of the method. Even then....centuries too late.
 
 
Not historians.
 
 
 
 
As a history scholar I might regret it; ie. losses of this or that, reservoirs of knowledge and information; artificats etc; but as a professional one, I move on. And attempt to study what remains and is available to be studied.... rather then wring my hands and wish frogs, in general, could fly.
 
 
Also sprach Centrix Vigilis
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2012 at 15:26
Yet you can hope more artifacts pr writings WILL be discovered which is possible and does happen.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2012 at 17:17
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Yet you can hope more artifacts pr writings WILL be discovered which is possible and does happen.
 
 
A professional... already knows this. And plans for it and encourages the research and the investigations to accomplish it. 
 
 
But is not required to state it...
 
 
 
..that's left for amateurs.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2012 at 17:36
You assume he knows this. Assumptions are not always the best course of things. How do you plan for a discovery of something undiscovered? Encouraging the investigations and research sure but how is that assumed? Studying the and writing using present evidence is the job of a historian, the archaelogist looks for new evidence. A historian can have a bias as almost all do whether they profess they do or not it shows in their work.
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2012 at 17:37
Your thinly veiled derogatory comments are uneeded and should be kept to yourself.
Thank you.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2012 at 19:13
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

You assume he knows this. Assumptions are not always the best course of things. How do you plan for a discovery of something undiscovered? Encouraging the investigations and research sure but how is that assumed? Studying the and writing using present evidence is the job of a historian, the archaeologist looks for new evidence. A historian can have a bias as almost all do whether they profess they do or not it shows in their work.
 
 
 
 
 
I assume nothing. He/she knows this because of their higher, not lesser, educational experience and credentials. He/she knows this because of their association, with others, within the same fields of study. And the past experience of their peers/mentors and past investigations. Iow. through peer review and on the job training to include research and field investigations...the professional expects to find a discovery yet undiscovered. That in part, is why they continue to research and investigate and as necessary promulgate either new or abridged hypothesis. Even given past effort. Or the general acceptance by mainstream peer and academia in general. They are constantly encouraged to examine new theorems and formulate new hypotheses as long as the method is their guide. I should note that whether they practice this well  enough or often enough is what seperates the 'bad from the good' professional. As to the assurance of research and investigations....that also is a given presuming the individual in question has been taught the use of the method properly and has used past experience as and from others as his guide as well. Especially, when they are countered with a new and or opposing hypothesis. In general, this requires higher educational training....
 
 
 
 
 
(In the fields of history-anthropology and archaeology and to a lesser degree sociology; this begins in the late Sophomore level at a university as an undergrad.)
 
 
 
 
 
 
....and proven standards to ensure the knowledge base proficiency as determined by his/her peers and his academic superiors.
 
 
 
If he has been inadequately taught or merely adopts the mantle and mantra of an amateur.....
 
 
 
(well intended or not remains subjective)
 
 
 
 
...then the counter is to be expected.
 
 
 
 
 
 
This is so ingrained in the professional it becomes his/her 'holy grail' so to speak. As to the latter in your post...immaterial and strawman deflection. And next time try to enlighten me with something I don't know.....for statement for statement's sake and certainly when restating the obvious remains the characteristic of the amateur...not the professional.


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 03-Sep-2012 at 19:38
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2012 at 19:21
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Your thinly veiled derogatory comments are unneeded and should be kept to yourself.
Thank you.
 
If you believe a violation has occurred you already know what to do as per the CoC and it's recent amendments. If you don't then you are merely trolling and adopting a confrontational attitude which was also recently addressed.
 
 
 
All my comments have remained generic and with no associations directly attached to any here or elsewhere and certainly not by name. And it is my right to make the same as a member.... even in the general sense. Whether you attach a personal association or feign injury is not my responsibility. Nor am I required to necessarily be concerned with that. That is for a Moderator to decide.
 
So....perceive a violation? Report it as per the CoC. Or..... you are in non-compliance with the same.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2012 at 19:48
In the field of history some of those who are older and supposedly more knowledgeable and more experienced feel that they are somehow better than their younger peers. They feel that only old men and women who have trained diligently can be historians. They lack the capacity to realize that quite a few of the greatest historians had no formal training. These narrow minded and opreasive people lacked the foresight to welcome the younger generation and so were left in the dust to the unknown and unremembered. As a method nothing should ever be assumed. History can be recorded by the merchant the traveler, the seaman, thr soldier, the king, or even the peasant. It matters not what type race or how old the person is if he he tells HIS STORY he is writing history.
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  Quote unclefred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2012 at 22:20
How about a source or two so we can all enjoy the momentous dawning of the mighty youngsters?  

Edited by unclefred - 03-Sep-2012 at 22:27
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2012 at 22:33
Or perhaps a source on CV's piece? What source do you need its my personal thoughts, opinions, and point of view. For the part about historians not all being trained as such any written record of something that happened is a history. Billions have written them. Think of Anne Frank, Polybius eho was a military man first, Xenophon. The numbers are endless. Age gives you no specialt privelege or perk. If you have good work and write well and accurately those are your credentials.
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2012 at 22:34
And as CV stated I was merely meaning "in general" ;).
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  Quote unclefred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2012 at 01:35
Sock puppets should be banned. In general.
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2012 at 03:04
I don't think anyone should be required to prove oneself here - besides this is impossible becuase everyne can come up with an imaginary bio online.
The age, education, or exeprience or any posted cannot be guarantee for anything, nor can anyone call on the supposed lack of such in others. We are here only in our role of people who are interested in history - all else, education, credentials, jobs taken in life, etc, are immaterial. This is my opinion anyway.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2012 at 03:24
Originally posted by Don Quixote

I don't think anyone should be required to prove oneself here - besides this is impossible because everyone can come up with an imaginary bio online.
The age, education, or experience or any posted cannot be guarantee for anything, nor can anyone call on the supposed lack of such in others. We are here only in our role of people who are interested in history - all else, education, credentials, jobs taken in life, etc, are immaterial. This is my opinion anyway.
 
Ref bold 1. Perhaps the reason some are here...and as noted by yourself. And that then might be viewed by others merely as your subjective definition and opinion... but not a requirement of the Coc to be adhered to. Consequently, that remains insufficient for me and others of like mind here. Because In addition to that. I'm here to educate and elucidate, opine, encourage and even criticise as necessary if the occasion requires. When I wish. When I think there is a productive outcome or willing reciepient to be developed. That's what scholars and educators do. Or at least the well trained and good ones do. Even those who are members of a history chat forum. For others, who make claim to be such... well...perhaps they should seek another profession.
 
 
And as long as I remain within the aforementioned guidance of the Coc and I certainly I believe I have.... I should feel free to do so without undue harrasment from those with opposite viewpoints.
 
 
 
 
Ref bold 2. Perhaps in some individuals world but not the real one. And my experiences in life and credentials earned along the way has proven it. To dismiss them out of hand is naive. And not realistic.


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 04-Sep-2012 at 04:09
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2012 at 03:37
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Originally posted by Don Quixote

I don't think anyone should be required to prove oneself here - besides this is impossible because everyone can come up with an imaginary bio online.
The age, education, or experience or any posted cannot be guarantee for anything, nor can anyone call on the supposed lack of such in others. We are here only in our role of people who are interested in history - all else, education, credentials, jobs taken in life, etc, are immaterial. This is my opinion anyway.
 
Ref bold 1. Perhaps the reason some are here...but that remains insufficient for me and others of like mind here. Because In addition to that. I'm here to educate and elucidate, opine, encourage and even criticise as necessary if the occasion requires. When I wish. When I think there is a productive outcome or willing reciepient to be developed. That's what scholars and educators do. Or at least the well trained and good ones do. For others, who make claim to be such... well...perhaps they should seek another profession.
 
Ref bold 2. Perhaps in some individuals world but not the real one. And my experiences in life and credentials earned along the way has proven it. To dismiss them out of hand is naive. And not realistic.

On ref bold 1. This is not a school, and no one here is a teacher; we are all equals sharing info on equal basis. I'm a teacher only in my classroom, not here. To tell all the time who well trained one is is not a positive thing;the better option is  let others to decide that.

On fer bold 2. I don't know your credentials, nor do I care for them. I care how people react and behave here, and if they use their ceredntials to beat others down and to prove some superiority this oly reduces my respect for them.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2012 at 03:49
Originally posted by Don Quixote

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Originally posted by Don Quixote

I don't think anyone should be required to prove oneself here - besides this is impossible because everyone can come up with an imaginary bio online.
The age, education, or experience or any posted cannot be guarantee for anything, nor can anyone call on the supposed lack of such in others. We are here only in our role of people who are interested in history - all else, education, credentials, jobs taken in life, etc, are immaterial. This is my opinion anyway.
 
Ref bold 1. Perhaps the reason some are here...but that remains insufficient for me and others of like mind here. Because In addition to that. I'm here to educate and elucidate, opine, encourage and even criticise as necessary if the occasion requires. When I wish. When I think there is a productive outcome or willing reciepient to be developed. That's what scholars and educators do. Or at least the well trained and good ones do. For others, who make claim to be such... well...perhaps they should seek another profession.
 
Ref bold 2. Perhaps in some individuals world but not the real one. And my experiences in life and credentials earned along the way has proven it. To dismiss them out of hand is naive. And not realistic.

On ref bold 1. This is not a school, and no one here is a teacher; we are all equals sharing info on equal basis. I'm a teacher only in my classroom, not here. To tell all the time who well trained one is is not a positive thing;the better option is  let others to decide that.

On fer bold 2. I don't know your credentials, nor do I care for them. I care how people react and behave here, and if they use their ceredntials to beat others down and to prove some superiority this oly reduces my respect for them.
 
 
 
 
Ref your bold 2. I don't like doing it but perhaps it's required in this case. So I'll repeat myself.
 
 
'' All my comments have remained generic and with no associations directly attached to any here or elsewhere and certainly not by name. And it is my right to make the same as a member.... even in the general sense. Whether you attach a personal association or feign injury is not my responsibility. Nor am I required to necessarily be concerned with that. That is for a Moderator to decide.
So....perceive a violation? Report it as per the CoC. Or..... you are in non-compliance with the same.''
 
 
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2012 at 08:32
.
I
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Originally posted by Don Quixote

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Originally posted by Don Quixote

I don't think anyone should be required to prove oneself here - besides this is impossible because everyone can come up with an imaginary bio online.
The age, education, or experience or any posted cannot be guarantee for anything, nor can anyone call on the supposed lack of such in others. We are here only in our role of people who are interested in history - all else, education, credentials, jobs taken in life, etc, are immaterial. This is my opinion anyway.
 
Ref bold 1. Perhaps the reason some are here...but that remains insufficient for me and others of like mind here. Because In addition to that. I'm here to educate and elucidate, opine, encourage and even criticise as necessary if the occasion requires. When I wish. When I think there is a productive outcome or willing reciepient to be developed. That's what scholars and educators do. Or at least the well trained and good ones do. For others, who make claim to be such... well...perhaps they should seek another profession.
 
Ref bold 2. Perhaps in some individuals world but not the real one. And my experiences in life and credentials earned along the way has proven it. To dismiss them out of hand is naive. And not realistic.

On ref bold 1. This is not a school, and no one here is a teacher; we are all equals sharing info on equal basis. I'm a teacher only in my classroom, not here. To tell all the time who well trained one is is not a positive thing;the better option is  let others to decide that.

On fer bold 2. I don't know your credentials, nor do I care for them. I care how people react and behave here, and if they use their ceredntials to beat others down and to prove some superiority this oly reduces my respect for them.
 
 
 
 
Ref your bold 2. I don't like doing it but perhaps it's required in this case. So I'll repeat myself.
 
 
'' All my comments have remained generic and with no associations directly attached to any here or elsewhere and certainly not by name. And it is my right to make the same as a member.... even in the general sense. Whether you attach a personal association or feign injury is not my responsibility. Nor am I required to necessarily be concerned with that. That is for a Moderator to decide.
So....perceive a violation? Report it as per the CoC. Or..... you are in non-compliance with the same.''
 
 

I didn't make any remark or insinuation of a injury, and I know the what to do  if I perceive a violation. I didn't say anything about such iin the case.

My post was not about any injuries, but of my opinin what this forum is about - equality of stance, sharing of info and opinions as people interested in history, whithout claims that someone's opinions has to be right because of their credentials or senirity of any kind. I don't put here my credentials, nor I expect any special treatment because of my ife experience. My info, my opinions, that's all.

Is using credentals and seriorit as an argument for someone's right in a discussion a violation of SoS? No. Is it the right thing to do? IMHO, no. In a discussion only the facts of the matter and the personal interpretation of them si what matters, not the education, the age or the life experience of the poster. This is my opinion anyway.

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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2012 at 10:30
Credentials are what is presented when the person behind them is unknown.  And you are still reliant upon that persons honesty.  I have interviewed prospective employees, who possessed impeccable credentials, and in less than an hour, new if the person was real.  Many were not.  Otoh, Red Sr did not have a High School Diploma,  Graduated from a 3 year Tech School, Spring Garden Inst. and did not posses a degree.  In many folks eyes, he did not have the "credentials" needed for the type of work he did.  Fortunately for him it was at a time when what mattered was what you could do, not where or how long you went to school. 
 
This is a man who lectured at MIT, taught Physics at a Comm. College and worked on projects such as the Fusion reactors at Forestall.  No one questioned his credentials, that's not what they were interested in.  It wasn't until he had been retired for several years that a College in the area asked him to lecture on Materials strength and stress analysis and asked him for his Educational background.  When they found out he did not have a HS diploma, they told him he would have to get a GED.  I am unable to repeat in print what he told them in return.Big smile
 
Credentials are fine, but when someone tries to impress me with theirs, instead of what they know.................Tongue   I get very suspicious.
 
 
All of this aside, I think it would be a good idea if everyone here stepped back and took a couple of deep breaths.  Take a good look at where this is going, and then change the direction.
 
 


Edited by red clay - 04-Sep-2012 at 10:36
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2012 at 10:43
I realize this topic is in the "minefield", but that does not exclude common civility.
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2012 at 10:59
Originally posted by unclefred

Sock puppets should be banned. In general.
 
 
 
There are none here at this time.  But I deffinitely agree.  However this is totally off topic.
 
 
 
 
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