Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

If there was no Islamic conquests?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
heyamigos View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 31-Aug-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 126
  Quote heyamigos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: If there was no Islamic conquests?
    Posted: 31-Aug-2012 at 18:38
I have an Armenian friend who always tells me if there were no Turkic and Arabic nomads who forced Islam on to others, that the great powers in the past (Chinese, Roman, Persian, Indian, Crusaders) would have joined up and mutually benefitted each other by sharing cultures and probably progressing humankind.  He said Islam set back many parts of the world for many centuries and continue to this day.  he mainly said that had Anatolia remain in the hands of Armenians and Greeks, they probably would have turned it into a very developed European nation.  All theory?  Armenians, by the way, seem like a friendly and can be a very intelligent people.
Back to Top
Ollios View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22-Feb-2011
Location: Diyar-ı Rum
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1130
  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2012 at 04:20
A facist Euro-Christian topic? Angry

There is an option to think to find a solution of live in a peace under the current situation. However, you are choicing to think about future without one side. Recognizing is the first step of respect and also alive sample of how good are you?

Will you gain anything with this? Which thinking way can make the world better; first one or yours?

There is a Turkish idiom: if my aunt had a mustache, she would be my uncle. Don't waste your time with impossible scenarios.

Let's thing big!!!
Humankind come from Africa and we are
invasive species in other lands, which destroy other's species habitat.  Kill the all Americans, Asians, Europeans and 90% of all Africans. In that period, all species of world, can be live with harmony under the sustainable condition.
Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır
Back to Top
Don Quixote View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Dec-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4734
  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2012 at 04:37
How is the topic fashist, Ollios? It's alternative history - what would happen if. All alternative history is about scenarious, and no scenario is impossible - it just didn't happen for variety of reasons.
Now, if you don't want to discuss it, that's fine, but there is no need to accuse persons who want to do so.

Back to Top
Don Quixote View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Dec-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4734
  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2012 at 04:38
If there are no objections, since the thread is about alternative history, I'll move it there.

Edited by Don Quixote - 01-Sep-2012 at 04:39
Back to Top
TheAlaniDragonRising View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Spam Fighter

Joined: 09-May-2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6084
  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2012 at 04:46
Originally posted by heyamigos

I have an Armenian friend who always tells me if there were no Turkic and Arabic nomads who forced Islam on to others, that the great powers in the past (Chinese, Roman, Persian, Indian, Crusaders) would have joined up and mutually benefitted each other by sharing cultures and probably progressing humankind.  He said Islam set back many parts of the world for many centuries and continue to this day.  he mainly said that had Anatolia remain in the hands of Armenians and Greeks, they probably would have turned it into a very developed European nation.  All theory?  Armenians, by the way, seem like a friendly and can be a very intelligent people.
What you then should be asking yourself then, heyamigos, is why should those you seem to believe might join together were so reticent in wanting to share the knowledge they held, whereas Islam collected knowledge and broadcast it westward, and even managed to help and clean the stinky bodies in the west by inventing the bar of soap. Oh and while I say this I should also remind people how much medicine owns to Islamic scholars.Smile
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
Back to Top
Don Quixote View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Dec-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4734
  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2012 at 04:52
Originally posted by heyamigos

I have an Armenian friend who always tells me if there were no Turkic and Arabic nomads who forced Islam on to others, that the great powers in the past (Chinese, Roman, Persian, Indian, Crusaders) would have joined up and mutually benefitted each other by sharing cultures and probably progressing humankind.  He said Islam set back many parts of the world for many centuries and continue to this day.  he mainly said that had Anatolia remain in the hands of Armenians and Greeks, they probably would have turned it into a very developed European nation.  All theory?  Armenians, by the way, seem like a friendly and can be a very intelligent people.

It's hard to say. The relatonships between the European states in the time fo the Crusades and the East Roman/Byzantian Empire were quite bad, one of the cusades actually sacked Constantinople. There was a chance for a dynastic marriage to bring the both together, but it didn't happen. Anyway the rift between the two halved of the Roman Empore was religious, and happed before the Turks came about, like in 100 century or so. So I dont think such union would happen with the Turks or without them about.

Otherwise its true that the Ottoman Empire dragged he Middle East down economically, due to it's plain refusal to modernize. Would some other ethnoces be more perceptive to the future? Maybe yes, maybe no. The Turks saw themselves are the New Rome, and did everything they could to keep the time back, so they continue to upkeep what they saw as Roman traditions.



Edited by Don Quixote - 01-Sep-2012 at 04:59
Back to Top
Ollios View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22-Feb-2011
Location: Diyar-ı Rum
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1130
  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2012 at 01:44
Originally posted by Don Quixote

How is the topic fashist, Ollios? It's alternative history - what would happen if. All alternative history is about scenarious, and no scenario is impossible - it just didn't happen for variety of reasons.
Now, if you don't want to discuss it, that's fine, but there is no need to accuse persons who want to do so.


If we were living in 1930's, would we discuss that Europe could be better without Jews.


Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır
Back to Top
Ollios View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22-Feb-2011
Location: Diyar-ı Rum
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1130
  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2012 at 01:58
A small idea about what Greeks and Armenians do without Turks in Anatolia


2008


2011

Their friendship isn't strong, just based on hate of Turks.
Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır
Back to Top
Don Quixote View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Dec-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4734
  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2012 at 02:23
Originally posted by Ollios

Originally posted by Don Quixote

How is the topic fashist, Ollios? It's alternative history - what would happen if. All alternative history is about scenarious, and no scenario is impossible - it just didn't happen for variety of reasons.
Now, if you don't want to discuss it, that's fine, but there is no need to accuse persons who want to do so.


If we were living in 1930's, would we discuss that Europe could be better without Jews.



This has nothing to do with anything. No one is going after Turkey, on the opposite, milions of Turks live in EU without any problems, and are free to pose all kinds of pose requirements to the host countries. Your example is irrelevant.


Edited by Don Quixote - 02-Sep-2012 at 02:27
Back to Top
Don Quixote View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Dec-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4734
  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2012 at 02:26
Originally posted by Ollios

A small idea about what Greeks and Armenians do without Turks in Anatolia


2008


2011

Their friendship isn't strong, just based on hate of Turks.

Ollios, you are bordering on inflaming ethnic hatred. hiamigos didn;t say anithing negative about Turks, please return the favor. This is a warning.
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2012 at 03:55

Avicenna, the greatest Persian polymaths says about the wine:

Halal gasht be fatvaye aql bar dana, haram gasht be fatvaye Shar' bar nadan

It is halal (prescribed) by wise intellect, it is haram (forbidden) by ignorant Sharia (Islamic law).

However it is true that religion and science are two opposite ways but early Persian, Turkic and Arab kings and caliphs were really tolerable rulers, Buyid and Samanid Persians were certainly the best ones, the greatest scientists were in that period, then Abbasid Caliphs and Seljuk Turks, you can read the poems of Khayyam to understand this thing.

Back to Top
TheAlaniDragonRising View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Spam Fighter

Joined: 09-May-2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6084
  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2012 at 05:58
I have just found this article from a newspaper listing a few Islamic innovations.

How Islamic inventors changed the world

From coffee to cheques and the three-course meal, the Muslim world has given us many innovations that we take for granted in daily life. As a new exhibition opens, Paul Vallely nominates 20 of the most influential- and identifies the men of genius behind them.


1 The story goes that an Arab named Khalid was tending his goats in the Kaffa region of southern Ethiopia, when he noticed his animals became livelier after eating a certain berry. He boiled the berries to make the first coffee. Certainly the first record of the drink is of beans exported from Ethiopia to Yemen where Sufis drank it to stay awake all night to pray on special occasions. By the late 15th century it had arrived in Mecca and Turkey from where it made its way to Venice in 1645. It was brought to England in 1650 by a Turk named Pasqua Rosee who opened the first coffee house in Lombard Street in the City of London. The Arabic qahwa became the Turkish kahve then the Italian caffé and then English coffee.

2 The ancient Greeks thought our eyes emitted rays, like a laser, which enabled us to see. The first person to realise that light enters the eye, rather than leaving it, was the 10th-century Muslim mathematician, astronomer and physicist Ibn al-Haitham. He invented the first pin-hole camera after noticing the way light came through a hole in window shutters. The smaller the hole, the better the picture, he worked out, and set up the first Camera Obscura (from the Arab word qamara for a dark or private room). He is also credited with being the first man to shift physics from a philosophical activity to an experimental one.

3 A form of chess was played in ancient India but the game was developed into the form we know it today in Persia. From there it spread westward to Europe - where it was introduced by the Moors in Spain in the 10th century - and eastward as far as Japan. The word rook comes from the Persian rukh, which means chariot.

4 A thousand years before the Wright brothers a Muslim poet, astronomer, musician and engineer named Abbas ibn Firnas made several attempts to construct a flying machine. In 852 he jumped from the minaret of the Grand Mosque in Cordoba using a loose cloak stiffened with wooden struts. He hoped to glide like a bird. He didn't. But the cloak slowed his fall, creating what is thought to be the first parachute, and leaving him with only minor injuries. In 875, aged 70, having perfected a machine of silk and eagles' feathers he tried again, jumping from a mountain. He flew to a significant height and stayed aloft for ten minutes but crashed on landing - concluding, correctly, that it was because he had not given his device a tail so it would stall on landing. Baghdad international airport and a crater on the Moon are named after him.

5 Washing and bathing are religious requirements for Muslims, which is perhaps why they perfected the recipe for soap which we still use today. The ancient Egyptians had soap of a kind, as did the Romans who used it more as a pomade. But it was the Arabs who combined vegetable oils with sodium hydroxide and aromatics such as thyme oil. One of the Crusaders' most striking characteristics, to Arab nostrils, was that they did not wash. Shampoo was introduced to England by a Muslim who opened Mahomed's Indian Vapour Baths on Brighton seafront in 1759 and was appointed Shampooing Surgeon to Kings George IV and William IV.

6 Distillation, the means of separating liquids through differences in their boiling points, was invented around the year 800 by Islam's foremost scientist, Jabir ibn Hayyan, who transformed alchemy into chemistry, inventing many of the basic processes and apparatus still in use today - liquefaction, crystallisation, distillation, purification, oxidisation, evaporation and filtration. As well as discovering sulphuric and nitric acid, he invented the alembic still, giving the world intense rosewater and other perfumes and alcoholic spirits (although drinking them is haram, or forbidden, in Islam). Ibn Hayyan emphasised systematic experimentation and was the founder of modern chemistry.

7 The crank-shaft is a device which translates rotary into linear motion and is central to much of the machinery in the modern world, not least the internal combustion engine. One of the most important mechanical inventions in the history of humankind, it was created by an ingenious Muslim engineer called al-Jazari to raise water for irrigation. His 1206 Book of Knowledge of Ingenious Mechanical Devices shows he also invented or refined the use of valves and pistons, devised some of the first mechanical clocks driven by water and weights, and was the father of robotics. Among his 50 other inventions was the combination lock.

8 Quilting is a method of sewing or tying two layers of cloth with a layer of insulating material in between. It is not clear whether it was invented in the Muslim world or whether it was imported there from India or China. But it certainly came to the West via the Crusaders. They saw it used by Saracen warriors, who wore straw-filled quilted canvas shirts instead of armour. As well as a form of protection, it proved an effective guard against the chafing of the Crusaders' metal armour and was an effective form of insulation - so much so that it became a cottage industry back home in colder climates such as Britain and Holland.

9 The pointed arch so characteristic of Europe's Gothic cathedrals was an invention borrowed from Islamic architecture. It was much stronger than the rounded arch used by the Romans and Normans, thus allowing the building of bigger, higher, more complex and grander buildings. Other borrowings from Muslim genius included ribbed vaulting, rose windows and dome-building techniques. Europe's castles were also adapted to copy the Islamic world's - with arrow slits, battlements, a barbican and parapets. Square towers and keeps gave way to more easily defended round ones. Henry V's castle architect was a Muslim.

10 Many modern surgical instruments are of exactly the same design as those devised in the 10th century by a Muslim surgeon called al-Zahrawi. His scalpels, bone saws, forceps, fine scissors for eye surgery and many of the 200 instruments he devised are recognisable to a modern surgeon. It was he who discovered that catgut used for internal stitches dissolves away naturally (a discovery he made when his monkey ate his lute strings) and that it can be also used to make medicine capsules. In the 13th century, another Muslim medic named Ibn Nafis described the circulation of the blood, 300 years before William Harvey discovered it. Muslims doctors also invented anaesthetics of opium and alcohol mixes and developed hollow needles to suck cataracts from eyes in a technique still used today.

11 The windmill was invented in 634 for a Persian caliph and was used to grind corn and draw up water for irrigation. In the vast deserts of Arabia, when the seasonal streams ran dry, the only source of power was the wind which blew steadily from one direction for months. Mills had six or 12 sails covered in fabric or palm leaves. It was 500 years before the first windmill was seen in Europe.

12 The technique of inoculation was not invented by Jenner and Pasteur but was devised in the Muslim world and brought to Europe from Turkey by the wife of the English ambassador to Istanbul in 1724. Children in Turkey were vaccinated with cowpox to fight the deadly smallpox at least 50 years before the West discovered it.

13 The fountain pen was invented for the Sultan of Egypt in 953 after he demanded a pen which would not stain his hands or clothes. It held ink in a reservoir and, as with modern pens, fed ink to the nib by a combination of gravity and capillary action.

14 The system of numbering in use all round the world is probably Indian in origin but the style of the numerals is Arabic and first appears in print in the work of the Muslim mathematicians al-Khwarizmi and al-Kindi around 825. Algebra was named after al-Khwarizmi's book, Al-Jabr wa-al-Muqabilah, much of whose contents are still in use. The work of Muslim maths scholars was imported into Europe 300 years later by the Italian mathematician Fibonacci. Algorithms and much of the theory of trigonometry came from the Muslim world. And Al-Kindi's discovery of frequency analysis rendered all the codes of the ancient world soluble and created the basis of modern cryptology.

15 Ali ibn Nafi, known by his nickname of Ziryab (Blackbird) came from Iraq to Cordoba in the 9th century and brought with him the concept of the three-course meal - soup, followed by fish or meat, then fruit and nuts. He also introduced crystal glasses (which had been invented after experiments with rock crystal by Abbas ibn Firnas - see No 4).

16 Carpets were regarded as part of Paradise by medieval Muslims, thanks to their advanced weaving techniques, new tinctures from Islamic chemistry and highly developed sense of pattern and arabesque which were the basis of Islam's non-representational art. In contrast, Europe's floors were distinctly earthly, not to say earthy, until Arabian and Persian carpets were introduced. In England, as Erasmus recorded, floors were "covered in rushes, occasionally renewed, but so imperfectly that the bottom layer is left undisturbed, sometimes for 20 years, harbouring expectoration, vomiting, the leakage of dogs and men, ale droppings, scraps of fish, and other abominations not fit to be mentioned". Carpets, unsurprisingly, caught on quickly.

17 The modern cheque comes from the Arabic saqq, a written vow to pay for goods when they were delivered, to avoid money having to be transported across dangerous terrain. In the 9th century, a Muslim businessman could cash a cheque in China drawn on his bank in Baghdad.

18 By the 9th century, many Muslim scholars took it for granted that the Earth was a sphere. The proof, said astronomer Ibn Hazm, "is that the Sun is always vertical to a particular spot on Earth". It was 500 years before that realisation dawned on Galileo. The calculations of Muslim astronomers were so accurate that in the 9th century they reckoned the Earth's circumference to be 40,253.4km - less than 200km out. The scholar al-Idrisi took a globe depicting the world to the court of King Roger of Sicily in 1139.

19 Though the Chinese invented saltpetre gunpowder, and used it in their fireworks, it was the Arabs who worked out that it could be purified using potassium nitrate for military use. Muslim incendiary devices terrified the Crusaders. By the 15th century they had invented both a rocket, which they called a "self-moving and combusting egg", and a torpedo - a self-propelled pear-shaped bomb with a spear at the front which impaled itself in enemy ships and then blew up.

20 Medieval Europe had kitchen and herb gardens, but it was the Arabs who developed the idea of the garden as a place of beauty and meditation. The first royal pleasure gardens in Europe were opened in 11th-century Muslim Spain. Flowers which originated in Muslim gardens include the carnation and the tulip.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/how-islamic-inventors-changed-the-world-469452.html

What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
Back to Top
heyamigos View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 31-Aug-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 126
  Quote heyamigos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2012 at 06:15
By the way, my Armenian friend had bad things to say about Georgian people too (both are from the same type of Christian churches?).  He said Georgians will do anything to protect their lives (even switch religions, language, culture, etc.)
Back to Top
TheAlaniDragonRising View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Spam Fighter

Joined: 09-May-2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6084
  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2012 at 06:30
Originally posted by heyamigos

By the way, my Armenian friend had bad things to say about Georgian people too (both are from the same type of Christian churches?).  He said Georgians will do anything to protect their lives (even switch religions, language, culture, etc.)
Reminds me of something I heard about the Spanish inquisition, and how a great numbers of people in Spain had converted to Islam because they liked what they were seeing, but when the Spanish inquisition came about, the fear it generated had people converting to Christianity. 
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
Back to Top
Don Quixote View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Dec-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4734
  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2012 at 06:46
Originally posted by heyamigos

By the way, my Armenian friend had bad things to say about Georgian people too (both are from the same type of Christian churches?).  He said Georgians will do anything to protect their lives (even switch religions, language, culture, etc.)

Well, many people would do that to stay alive, thats why cultural assimilations are possible. I don't know iif that is neccessarily bad, just life.
Back to Top
Nick1986 View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Mighty Slayer of Trolls

Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2012 at 20:07
The world would be a very backward place without Islamic conquests. All the Roman and Greek science preserved by the Muslims would have been lost and we'd still be living in the Middle Ages
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2012 at 05:58
Gundeshapur, one of the greatest universities of the ancient world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundeshapur
 
Islamic conquests & the destruction of Gundeshapur university
 
After the Arab conquest of Persia (Iran) 646 A.D. When the Arab commander Sa`d ibn Abi Waqqas faced the huge Iranian library of Ctesiphon (Sassanian Capital City) at the time, he wrote to Umar: What should be done about the books, Umar replied that the “blasphemous” books are not needed, as for us only Quran is sufficient. Thus, the huge library was destroyed and the books and the product of the generations of Persian scientists and scholars were burned in fire or thrown into the Euphrates. Later by the order of another Arab ruler (Gharaibeh ibn-e Muslim) in Khwarezmia, the literate Persians who were historians, writers and Mobads were massacred and their books burned so that after one generation the people were illiterate. Other libraries in Rey and Khorasan Province received the same treatment and the famous international University of Gundeshapur declined and eventually abandoned, its library and books vanished and burned. Only few books survived because the Persian scholars were left with no choice but to quickly translated them into Arabic in order to save them.


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 03-Sep-2012 at 05:59
Back to Top
Don Quixote View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Dec-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4734
  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2012 at 13:20
The same happened to the Univercit complex of Nalanda, India http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda - it was established in 500 BC, and had like 10,000 students and 2000 teachers. it was destroyed, by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakhtiyar_Khiljithe precious books burned, a whle radition of learning was obliterated. Indian culture bever recovered by this calamity.

Back to Top
medenaywe View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Master of Meanings

Joined: 06-Nov-2010
Location: /
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17084
  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2012 at 13:52
All ancient libraries were burned!Earth could have  been visited by Aliens! Alexandria,Persian libraries,India
Nalanda and others....Wink
Back to Top
Don Quixote View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Dec-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4734
  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2012 at 14:16
Only imagine how much knowledge, how many ideas, how much beauty did we lose...my heart is hurting.

Edited by Don Quixote - 03-Sep-2012 at 14:16
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.