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The Stratagetic Importance of Cannae

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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Stratagetic Importance of Cannae
    Posted: 12-Aug-2012 at 20:06
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Actually as I've shown their is indeed archeological evidence. But in asnwer to your questions the sites of these battles are disputed and so accurate digging can't be done. Also many mass graves from history have yet to be found. The fact id Hannibal and the Second Punic War's existence is unquestionable until evidence is provided otherwise. We have to much written and archaeological evidence to dismiss him and the war.
I didn't say anything about the second Punic war not existing, just aspects of it.


Please tell me your whole opinion then because that was my impression. What selective parts of history do you believe? And without evidence to back it up its merely your own opinion.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2012 at 20:13
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

It is almost impossible to find archeological evidence for a single man much less a man who was only a general not a ruler. Anyway my links provided evidence for the wars. Anyway do you have any evidence to refute the majority of modern historians and the ancient's histories?
I thought you had said that he was a great man who was feared and respected, if so then there should have been much wrote about him all over the place, and yet there isn't. In fact it would seem that works referenced by the two historians vanished mysteriously. The wars weren't an issue here, only someone called hannibal having anything to do with aspects of it.
I'll do you a deal, show me the absolutely categorical evidence that these modern historians have to show of hannibal's existence and I want question it.Smile  
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2012 at 20:16
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma



Please tell me your whole opinion then because that was my impression. What selective parts of history do you believe? And without evidence to back it up its merely your own opinion.
All I said was that there's no proof of Hannibal's existence. Tell me this, Delenda est Roma, if someone doesn't exist what kind of evidence would a person need to prove it?
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2012 at 20:19
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

It is almost impossible to find archeological evidence for a single man much less a man who was only a general not a ruler. Anyway my links provided evidence for the wars. Anyway do you have any evidence to refute the majority of modern historians and the ancient's histories?
I thought you had said that he was a great man who was feared and respected, if so then there should have been much wrote about him all over the place, and yet there isn't. In fact it would seem that works referenced by the two historians vanished mysteriously. The wars weren't an issue here, only someone called hannibal having anything to do with aspects of it.
I'll do you a deal, show me the absolutely categorical evidence that these modern historians have to show of hannibal's existence and I want question it.Smile  


The extensive writings of numerous ancient historians. Even most of the famous Polybius' histories and other written works haven't survived. For paper to survive you need an intensely dry climate. Anyway if you take Hannibal out of the Hannibalic War you have a large problem..... If you take Hannibal out you have no reason for the start of the second war, Punic presence in Spain, the Mercenary War, and the end of the First War. Any proof or are you using double standards?
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2012 at 20:21
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


Originally posted by Delenda est Roma


Please tell me your whole opinion then because that was my impression. What selective parts of history do you believe? And without evidence to back it up its merely your own opinion.

All I said was that there's no proof of Hannibal's existence. Tell me this, Delenda est Roma, if someone doesn't exist what kind of evidence would a person need to prove it?


Proof that the supposedly faked extensive writings, coins, and busts are all fakes and its all a big conspiracy. Not to be offensive but this line of thinking entails a double standard and is not logical in the slightest.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2012 at 20:32
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma


Proof that the supposedly faked extensive writings, coins, and busts are all fakes and its all a big conspiracy. Not to be offensive but this line of thinking entails a double standard and is not logical in the slightest.
When someone starts a sentence with the words "Not to be offensive" they invariably go onto do so, as you have. Smile 
Considering there's nothing contemporary indicating the existence of hannibal, is it possible that all could be fake, yes it easily could be.
Btw will you please describe in detail what the double standard is, and explain what it is about it which makes it not logical?Smile    
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2012 at 20:37
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

 
The extensive writings of numerous ancient historians. Even most of the famous Polybius' histories and other written works haven't survived. For paper to survive you need an intensely dry climate. Anyway if you take Hannibal out of the Hannibalic War you have a large problem..... If you take Hannibal out you have no reason for the start of the second war, Punic presence in Spain, the Mercenary War, and the end of the First War. Any proof or are you using double standards?
And yet many works were copied and recopied and have made it through to modern times. Obviously no one considered hannibal to be of any importance.Wink
Many terms for historical periods are recent, what kind of problem could there be if the only thing they had to do was change the odd name or title?
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2012 at 20:57
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Proof that the supposedly faked extensive writings, coins, and busts are all fakes and its all a big conspiracy. Not to be offensive but this line of thinking entails a double standard and is not logical in the slightest.
When someone starts a sentence with the words "Not to be offensive" they invariably go onto do so, as you have. Smile 
Considering there's nothing contemporary indicating the existence of hannibal, is it possible that all could be fake, yes it easily could be.
Btw will you please describe in detail what the double standard is, and explain what it is about it which makes it not logical?Smile    

There are in fact contenporary accounts of the Punic Wars which Polybius cites. I have already mentioned these to you. You accept that the Punic Wars happened but guess who were are primary accounts for those? The same Polybius and Livy I don't know of any contemporary source for the first war. It is clear you don't regard literary sources and somr archaeological evidence as such though I'm not sure why.
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2012 at 21:03
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

 The extensive writings of numerous ancient historians. Even most of the famous Polybius' histories and other written works haven't survived. For paper to survive you need an intensely dry climate. Anyway if you take Hannibal out of the Hannibalic War you have a large problem..... If you take Hannibal out you have no reason for the start of the second war, Punic presence in Spain, the Mercenary War, and the end of the First War. Any proof or are you using double standards?

And yet many works were copied and recopied and have made it through to modern times. Obviously no one considered hannibal to be of any importance.Wink
Many terms for historical periods are recent, what kind of problem could there be if the only thing they had to do was change the odd name or title?


The fact is numerous accounts DID survive. With their sources being contemporary and the historians themselves highly regarded. Do you know how many historians and writers have been found mentiong Hannibal? Many. He obviously had a very large impact. Anyway I will not respond until you answer this query.

Why do you selectively believe parts of the ancient's histories?
What is the evidence for the supposed elaborate scheme to incorporate Hannibal into history?
We cannot prove the existence of any ancient historical figure using your methods.

Sincerely,
DER
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2012 at 21:08
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma


There are in fact contenporary accounts of the Punic Wars which Polybius cites. I have already mentioned these to you. You accept that the Punic Wars happened but guess who were are primary accounts for those? The same Polybius and Livy I don't know of any contemporary source for the first war. It is clear you don't regard literary sources and somr archaeological evidence as such though I'm not sure why.
If you are trying to say that hannibal has to exist because the same historians wrote something which has archaeology to back its existence I'm afraid you would be stepping over the line into fallacious logic.
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2012 at 21:10
I await your answers to my questions. I can't tak you seriously until you state your opinions with whatever evidence you have.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2012 at 22:11
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma



The fact is numerous accounts DID survive. With their sources being contemporary and the historians themselves highly regarded. Do you know how many historians and writers have been found mentiong Hannibal? Many. He obviously had a very large impact. Anyway I will not respond until you answer this query.

Why do you selectively believe parts of the ancient's histories?
What is the evidence for the supposed elaborate scheme to incorporate Hannibal into history?
We cannot prove the existence of any ancient historical figure using your methods.

Sincerely,
DER
You say "did" survive. Do any of them survive now?
I bet more historians have been found talking about Greek mythology than the number of those doing so about hannibal. Talking about it does actually mean it wasn't an invention of someone's imagination.  
I believe sections of history when they can be backed up with sufficient evidence.
I don't have enough evidence for the incorporation of hannibal into history, but then again I don't for any other mythical figure either.
Are you sure proof wouldn't be there for any historical figure, really?
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2012 at 22:39
I have stated my argument with sources and such. On one last note do you know of any scholar or historian who has denied his existence? I have legions who take my position: Polybius, Livy, Appian, Sosylus, Charean, Jacob Abbot, Richard Miles, Lazenby, Caven, Goldsworthy, Richard Gabriel, Serge Lancel, Cotrell, Ernie Bradford, Harold Lamb, Theodore Ayrault Dodge, Nic Fields, Bagnall, Hoyos, O'Conell, Dally, Lidell Hart, Patrick Leonard MacDougall, Michael P. Fronda, Delbruck, P. A. Brunt, Prevas, Peddie, need I go on? All historians or scholars some of the most respected historians and scholars.
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  Quote Jack Torrance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2012 at 07:10
Thought provoking discussion. I never really questioned the existence of Hannibal and after reading this thread I would guess that if Hannibal didn't exists then, maybe, neither did Scipio Africanus! I would guess that if Scipio did in fact exists then that would prove to some degree at least that Hannibal did also. Just a thought.
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2012 at 07:42
Despite our resident trolls grumblings he has no proof at all not even a scholar or historian who supports his claim.
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2012 at 11:07
Delenda battle at Zama was real and described indirectly with fear in Demotic source.Actors inside were not mentioned,but Egypt was in fear after.I believe refuges&their stories about ferocities after Cartage had failed,created it...Do not accept written history as indisputable fact,please?We did not never know was Osama Bin Laden real character or not...Victorious write the History,other part is dead,his people&land conquered&enslaved...Regards...Names were given by Rome so there are possibilities they had been Romanized after...According to my research they were Hindu/Phoenician/Osirian/???...People
that led the Cartage.That doesn't mean they were majority even cause Cartage as Athene were free Merchants cities...
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2012 at 11:54
I'm not sure what you mean but Hannibal is definitely a Punic name and there is plenty of evidence for his existence.
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2012 at 14:56
What does it means Punic to You?Please explain here,I am really curious.Punic wars started after Alexander
's dead...This name had been given to Cartage people by Rome:
The term Punic comes from the Latin word Punicus (or Poenicus), meaning "Carthaginian", with reference to the Carthaginians' Phoenician ancestry.
  How did Cartage sprout from nowhere 50 years after dead of Alexander 3?  
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2012 at 16:26
Means "grace of Ba'al" from Phoenician hann "grace" combined with the name of the god BA'AL. Hannibal was the Carthaginian general who threatened Rome during the Second Punic War in the 3rd century BC.




Carthage was in being from the early 8th century BC according to archaeological evidence...
http://www.behindthename.com/name/hannibal

Edited by Delenda est Roma - 20-Aug-2012 at 16:30
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