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Goa Inquisition

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Goa Inquisition
    Posted: 13-Jul-2012 at 13:40
Beginning in 1560 the Portuguese began a policy of Christianising the people of Goa. Discriminatory laws were passed favoring Catholics, and Europeans who converted to Hinduism were expropriated. Hindu shrines and holy books were desecrated, Jews were expelled, and fanatical Jesuits withheld food from starving peasants unless they converted.
Who can tell me more about this atrocity?
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  Quote SuryaVajra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2012 at 13:51
Goa is sadly famous for its inquisition, equally contrary to humanity and commerce. The Portuguese monks made us believe that the people worshiped the devil, and it is they who have served him"`
VOLTAIRE

I have ordered this comprehensive book. I wont comment much until I have studied it myself.

http://www.flipkart.com/goa-inquisition-8185990565/p/itmdyuykjazmd7gn?pid=9788185990569&ref=c5d4c1b1-14b8-4d32-9f2f-e6d1c4982b8e

To get an idea of the cruelties inflicted on even little children,
http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?type=articles&id=1111142225

Wikipedia itself had a gruesome description.But the descriptions of violence and torture has been removed from wikipedia

From 1560 to 1774, a total of 16,172 persons were tried and condemned or acquitted by the tribunals of the Inquisition. While it also included individuals of different nationalities, the overwhelming majority—nearly three fourths were natives, almost equally represented by Christians and non-Christians. Many of these were hauled up merely for crossing the border and cultivating lands there

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2012 at 14:19

Pagan gods can appear devilish to the ignorant. The destruction of Hindu idols reminds me of Spanish attitudes to Aztec religion and (ironically) Protestants smashing images in Catholic churches


Edited by Nick1986 - 13-Jul-2012 at 14:20
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  Quote SuryaVajra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2012 at 14:38
Originally posted by Nick1986


Pagan gods can appear devilish to the ignorant. The destruction of Hindu idols reminds me of Spanish attitudes to Aztec religion and (ironically) Protestants smashing images in Catholic churches


"All creatures that walk the path of life have equal right to that path"
Rig Veda

It was not about the gods or how they appeared.

It was a fanatic "`My Godism", which required the belief that all other religions are false and must be replaced.

A perverted unuttered faith that anyone not Christian or Muslim was less than human.

To quote Sita Ram ,

Jehovah says, “I am the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods set against me. You shall not have a carved image for yourself nor the likeness of anything in the heavens above, or on the earth below, or in the waters under the earth. You shall not bow down to them, for, I, the Lord your God am a jealous god. I punish the children for the sins of their forefathers to the third and fourth generations of those that hate me.” He does not make it clear how homage to other gods means hatred for him.  He betrays the pathological state of mind in which a person feels slighted simply because some other person is praised. In any case, he goes ahead and lays down that “whoever sacrifices to any other god but the Lord shall be put to death under solemn ban.”`

The appellation "`pagan" seems to imply "less moral" or "`less pious"

All Gods are Pagan , Abrahamic or Dharmic.

No God can be proven or justified, if you ask me.

But I must speak on some historical connections between the two. If they had been known 300 years ago, perhaps the GI might not have happened.

The Abrahamic fury must have ceased for a moment  to look at its Dharmic roots.

Even the story of the flood was adopted from the Vedic Manu, through the Babylonians.
 
You might not be aware of Vedanta, how Hinduism is a mere skin concealing that profound, oldest and mightiest of all Philosophies.

You will be surprised how the "`Gnosis"` of Philo found in Johns gospel is adapted from the Sphota theory of Vedanta Philosophy.

You will be surprised at the Buddhist origins of Christianity.

And Vedantas influence on the ill fated Gnostic sects.,


Edited by SuryaVajra - 13-Jul-2012 at 15:03
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  Quote SuryaVajra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2012 at 14:49
Originally posted by Nick1986





I wont agree that the Portuguese were repulsed by this picture,

It didn't exist 300 years ago.Clearly, they were furious "My god is better than your god" kind of guys


The above  is the infuriated form of the Hindu/mythical Godess Durga,  a demons head in her hand.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ityh_wTqtF8/TFXRYeELYWI/AAAAAAAAAVk/z85BOaMFjLE/s1600/Durga.jpg

Hindu Godesses are personifications of Maya or nescience , the principle of illusion or relativity which conceals reality(consciousness or Absolute ) from being directly perceived in Vedanta.

While Abrahamics hold that god is masculine(though not explicitly), Vedas hold God to be sexless.

If, for sake of worship, God is considered Masculine, his corresponding power of creation or preservation or destruction or whatever blah blah blah , is considered feminine.

Thats why there are so many gods and godesses in the Hindu pantheon .



Edited by SuryaVajra - 13-Jul-2012 at 15:09
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  Quote SuryaVajra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2012 at 14:57

But by the way Nick, I am a Christian.(Though thats irrelevant )

The names Joseph .

The Goa inquisition was the reason I quit being one.LOL

Now I am a happy Monist , almost agnostic.

Must be a disgrace to the family .LOL


However,  Mommy denies me breakfast if I refuse to go to church on Sundays.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2012 at 19:19
It's not just Christians who hate what they cannot understand. Jesus would have been outraged by the atrocities committed in his name, especially as Hindus and Buddhists share early Christian ideals of rebirth, nonviolence, love for fellow-men, meditation, self-control, and renunciation of worldly goods
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2012 at 00:15
Nick said:  " The destruction of Hindu idols reminds me of Spanish attitudes to Aztec religion..."
 
Given the massive human sacrifices associated with the Aztec religion, I fail to see any but the most casual connection. I suppose one could suggest that far more Indians have died in Hindu-Muslim conflicts than were ever executed by the Goan Inquisition, but those appear more more political than religious, though the lines are certainly blurred.
 
Nick, are you suggesting that the Aztec religion should have been respected, and human sacrifice continued? Given their religious beliefs, I see no way to disassociate human sacrifice from their religious base. 
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  Quote SuryaVajra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2012 at 01:53
Originally posted by lirelou

Nick said:  " The destruction of Hindu idols reminds me of Spanish attitudes to Aztec religion..."
 
Given the massive human sacrifices associated with the Aztec religion, I fail to see any but the most casual connection. I suppose one could suggest that far more Indians have died in Hindu-Muslim conflicts than were ever executed by the Goan Inquisition, but those appear more more political than religious, though the lines are certainly blurred.
 
Nick, are you suggesting that the Aztec religion should have been respected, and human sacrifice continued? Given their religious beliefs, I see no way to disassociate human sacrifice from their religious base. 


There is this error in your approach as regards Islam.

Islam is a political system.Its founder was a political leader. The Koran calls for world conquest and subjugation of non muslims.

Like Nick said , Jesus never asked the inquisitors to do what they did.
But what Muslims did to India were inspired by Momo.

The atrocities committed throughout the world in the name of Allah was purely religious .

Agreed that human sacrifices  of the Aztecs were deprave,
Does that merit Genocide?
But how does that jusfify the mass extermination of entire civilizations?
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2012 at 10:53
SV, in re your:  "Agreed that human sacrifices of the Aztecs were deprave,
Does that merit Genocide?
But how does that jusfify the mass extermination of entire civilizations?"
 
There was no genocide of the Aztecs, who by the way were conquered by an Army consisting mostly of their Mexica neighbors. (Only 500 Spaniards at any one time) They are alive and well, and part of vast indigenous make-up that renders modern Mexico a Mestizo nation. You can hear Nahuatl being spoken on the streets of Mexico City even today, generally by ambulant female vendors who will have some choice Nahuatl words for you if you fail to purchase their wares.
 
Of relevence to this thread: Mexico after the conquest quickly took on the familiar colonial pattern of Indigenous on the bottom, mixed bloods in the middle, and descendants of the conquerors on top. It is still pretty much that way. It is my understanding that the Duke of Alburquerque instituted a policy in Goa whereby men coming to settle in the colony were largely single, and had agreed to marry Christian "Hindus", meaning Catholic Indians, whether converts, or from the Christian communities founded in India by (allegedly) St. James the Apostle. The end result of that was a 'colony' that had its feet firmly planted in two worlds. And when push came to shove in  1961, the great majority of Goans in the Portuguese Army (as well as some Peninsular Portuguese) opted to become citizens of India (which, in the cultural and ethnic sense, they already were). Some credit for that must be given to the Government of India, who signalled their willingness to recognize the pre-Independence rights of Goans within an Indian state.
 
 
 
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2012 at 19:41
Originally posted by lirelou

Nick said:  " The destruction of Hindu idols reminds me of Spanish attitudes to Aztec religion..."
 
Given the massive human sacrifices associated with the Aztec religion, I fail to see any but the most casual connection. I suppose one could suggest that far more Indians have died in Hindu-Muslim conflicts than were ever executed by the Goan Inquisition, but those appear more more political than religious, though the lines are certainly blurred.
 
Nick, are you suggesting that the Aztec religion should have been respected, and human sacrifice continued? Given their religious beliefs, I see no way to disassociate human sacrifice from their religious base. 

Absolutely not. Some aspects of Aztec and Indian culture were undoubtedly barbaric (like the practise of Sati), but the Spaniards' destruction of a great precolumbian civilisation was tragic, as was the suffering they inflicted on the people
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  Quote oxydracae Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2012 at 09:40
Originally posted by Nick1986

Beginning in 1560 the Portuguese began a policy of Christianising the people of Goa. Discriminatory laws were passed favoring Catholics, and Europeans who converted to Hinduism were expropriated. Hindu shrines and holy books were desecrated, Jews were expelled, and fanatical Jesuits withheld food from starving peasants unless they converted.
Who can tell me more about this atrocity?
 
Not only Hindus and Jews, but Nestorian Christians and Catholic Christians following some Hindu customs were also persecuted..
 
but still we have 74.4% non-Christian popluation in Goa
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  Quote SuryaVajra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2012 at 09:59
Originally posted by Nick1986

Absolutely not. Some aspects of Aztec and Indian culture were undoubtedly barbaric (like the practise of Sati), but the Spaniards' destruction of a great precolumbian civilisation was tragic, as was the suffering they inflicted on the people


"Rise woman, and go to the world of living beings; come, this man near whom you weep is lifeless; you have enjoyed this state of being the wife of your husband, the suitor who took you by the hand."

Rig Veda X. 18.8



People talk of Sati as though it was an intrinsic part of Vedic Civilization.
As though it was widespread and practiced by every one.You say something and it spreads like wildfire in the web.

To be honest, the condition of women became pathetic undeniably due to the Islamic invasion.Families preferred boys over Girls--So that they may help in the fight against Islam, so that parents wouldn't have to see any atrocities committed on their daughters.

Even the most feminist modern authors would hide in Shame if they see the wonderful things said in the Vedas and the Code of Manu about women.

The first things that come to a layman's mind about India is this sort of stuff. Beyond this they have no idea about the greatest Civilization in human history (by many standards)

"India of the Vedas entertained a respect for women amounting to worship; a fact which we seem little to suspect in Europe when we accuse the extreme East of having denied the dignity of woman, and of having only made her an instrument of pleasure and of passive obedience." He also said: "What! here is a civilization, which you cannot deny to be older than your own, which places the woman on a level with the man and gives her an equal place in the family and in society."
Louis Jaccoliot (1837-1890)



No, It was practiced by a very small minority in North west India

Around an estimated 3000 have died by Sati. It was a voluntary act .

Compare this with the tens of thousands of men , women and children involuntarily burned at stakes by the Vatican church.Thousands of wise and independent women healers and herbalists were burnt at the stake by the church during the post-Classical Dark Ages.

By contrast, 20,000 women were abducted by Arabs from Sindh in 612 AD in a few days.

10,000 women committed suicide in a single day at Chittagor Fort, to escape violation by a Muslim army.


Women have suffered worse elsewhere and more in India by Islam.

http://www.hinduwisdom.info/images/durgadevi.jpg




Edited by SuryaVajra - 15-Jul-2012 at 10:20
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2012 at 19:19
Voluntary or not, it was cruel and unncessary (just as bad as Peruvian children left to die in the mountains or Canaanites sacrificing their offspring to Molech). The Brits may have exploited the Indians, but (like the Romans in Britain) they also did a lot of good by restoring order and bringing the benefits of modern civilisation
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2012 at 14:41
Nick, in re your:  "Absolutely not. Some aspects of Aztec and Indian culture were undoubtedly barbaric (like the practise of Sati), but the Spaniards' destruction of a great precolumbian civilisation was tragic, as was the suffering they inflicted on the people."

We will agree to disagree. With the overthrow of the old gods, whose very basis was human sacrifice that supposedly kept the sun in the sky, there was no way their civilization could have survived without serious change. The frank truth is that the Mesoamerican civilizations were better off because of the conquest. And the civilization that grew out of that is their current one. It may not be the anglo-american european ideal, but it is measurably better than it was under the Aztecs and others.

Sorry, I've spent too many hours perusing Teotihuacan and the INAH Museum in Mexico City, gazing at yet more sculptured snakes, skulls, etc., to confuse those squat and barbaric representations with that which flowed out of Classical Greece into the Western world.

The Spaniards did no more to the Indians than the Indians would have gladly done to the Spaniards had they had the means to do so. Indeed, given the laws of the Indies, one could argue that the Spanish had the better world-view and record of human rights, though one must admit that those laws were more often observed in the breach than in the adherence. 

As for the Inquisition, while its provisions are barbaric when viewed from the safety of the 21st Century, they generally met the standards of their time. (30 Years War anyone? How about: "Kill them all, and let God sort them out." Said by a European, in relation to a European population center. Madeburg, IIRC.)
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  Quote SuryaVajra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2012 at 10:52
Originally posted by lirelou


The Spaniards did no more to the Indians than the Indians would have gladly done to the Spaniards had they had the means to do so. Indeed, given the laws of the Indies, one could argue that the Spanish had the better world-view and record of human rights, though one must admit that those laws were more often observed in the breach than in the adherence. 





We cant know that for absolutely certain can we?

I suppose not. This sounds much like the wonted holocaust denial.


Its simple to explain.

A more competitive Civilization ( by military capability and by no means cultural refinement) squeezes a less able one into subjugation.

Much like the Roman conquest of Greece
Or the Islamic infestation of Persia
Or the Hunnic invasion of Rome
Or the Islamic Jihad on India (which failed)


But the question is,

Why does some infestations end in Genocide and others in an Empire consolidation?


Do you have a solution?


Edited by SuryaVajra - 17-Jul-2012 at 10:52
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2012 at 20:00
Originally posted by SuryaVajra

Originally posted by lirelou


The Spaniards did no more to the Indians than the Indians would have gladly done to the Spaniards had they had the means to do so. Indeed, given the laws of the Indies, one could argue that the Spanish had the better world-view and record of human rights, though one must admit that those laws were more often observed in the breach than in the adherence. 





We cant know that for absolutely certain can we?

I suppose not. This sounds much like the wonted holocaust denial.


Its simple to explain.

A more competitive Civilization ( by military capability and by no means cultural refinement) squeezes a less able one into subjugation.

Much like the Roman conquest of Greece
Or the Islamic infestation of Persia
Or the Hunnic invasion of Rome
Or the Islamic Jihad on India (which failed)


But the question is,

Why does some infestations end in Genocide and others in an Empire consolidation?


Do you have a solution?

Perhaps it depends on the mindset of the leader and the people's willingness to conform? If the ruler offers concessions and rewards in addition to gruesome punishment, his subjects are more likely to consent to his rule
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  Quote SuryaVajra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2012 at 09:02




I was thinking of religious motivation.

If the invaders have the belief "My god is better than yours", Genocide is certain until the population converts.

I believe this persuaded the Spanish in Meso America, muslims in India and Portuguese at Goa.


Of course,as you said, the mentality of the invaders is as important .

The Mittani, the Hittites and the Kassites, after invading the middle east, did not try to destroy the Babylonian and Sumerian religions,

These Indo Aryans fused their Vedic Gods with those of their Subjects.

On the other hand , Hulegu Khan depopulated Baghdad , in his revenge upon Islam.



Edited by SuryaVajra - 18-Jul-2012 at 09:07
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2012 at 12:16
SuryaV, in re your:  "We can't know that for certain, can we?"

I'd say the record speaks for itself. 500 Spaniards leading Armies of Moctezuma's former subject peoples against Tenochtitlan. Armies that numbered in the tens of thousands. My impression is that you are really drawing a parallel between the Spanish conquest of Mexico and Muslim conquests of parts of India. I cannot really reply to the second, and I don't believe you've really studied the first. The Inquisition in Spain was used primarily as an instrument of state, to weld Spain into a single nation. As such, its methods and goals would have differed from the Inquisition in Portugal. The exception to this would have been the period in which Spain essentially annexed Portugal, a la the 1938 German takeover of Austrian via the "Anschluss". When Portugal was not under Spanish domination, it was not a part of the Holy Roman Empire as it was under Carlos V and Filipe II. I'll take your word as to how it was applied in India during those times, but to place the Inquisition in context, it is necessary to also look at the state of religious tolerance outside the Catholic areas. Remember that the Salem Witch trials took place among a sect of Protestant reformists, and even the recent Chiapas rebellion in Mexico had a certain religious tinge to it that reminded this reader at least of Europe in the 1500s.

In summary, there was no 'genocide' in Mexico unless we are willing to dilute that term to the point it loses all meaning. One civilization replaced another. The peoples of Mexico received some new blood from the Peninsula, and even Asia (Filipino sailors manned the Spanish treasure fleets that put into Acapulco, and some Filipinos remained. The Mexican national dress is modeled on one worn by the "China Poblana", the Filipina bride of the local Spanish governor in Puebla during the Colonial period. But the great majority of Mexicans remained genetically Mexican (from "Mexica", the name of the peoples who inhabited valley of Mexico prior to the arrival of the Aztecs.)


Edited by lirelou - 18-Jul-2012 at 12:24
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2012 at 19:10
Originally posted by SuryaVajra





I was thinking of religious motivation.

If the invaders have the belief "My god is better than yours", Genocide is certain until the population converts.

I believe this persuaded the Spanish in Meso America, muslims in India and Portuguese at Goa.


Of course,as you said, the mentality of the invaders is as important .

The Mittani, the Hittites and the Kassites, after invading the middle east, did not try to destroy the Babylonian and Sumerian religions,

These Indo Aryans fused their Vedic Gods with those of their Subjects.

On the other hand , Hulegu Khan depopulated Baghdad , in his revenge upon Islam.


Atrocities prove religious fanaticism is a dangerous, destructive ideology. It doesn't matter if the perpetrators are Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Pagans, Hindus, or Buddhists
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