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Topic ClosedAny Mongolian speakers in the house?
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Knight
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Posts: 72 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Any Mongolian speakers in the house?
    Posted: 30-Apr-2005 at 11:27
I'd like some translation help. The Secret History mentions a place called Botokan Bo'orji near the head of the Onon river. I can usually figure out most place names, but this one is a mystery to me. What does Botokan bo'orji translate into?  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2005 at 21:58
Not that I know the translation, but are you wondering about that because of Genghis' burial site?
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Posts: 72 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2005 at 04:42

Originally posted by Seng-Kuo-Lin-Ch'in

Not that I know the translation, but are you wondering about that because of Genghis' burial site?

 

Not at all. I'm just curious. Why, is the place associated with genghis' burial site?

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Posts: 132 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2005 at 22:20
Rene Grousset ("Empire of the Steppes", "Genghis Khan") and Claproth noted that all the geographical names in the Secret History have been changed from Turkic to Khalkha-Mongolian ones today. For example: the lake Qyzyl-Bash (Red Head in Turkic) now is lake Ulyung-nor, the Sutkul lake (Milk lake in Kazakh, or any Turkic other language) is  Chagan Sairim nor (White Lake of Serenity) or just Sairam now (north of Kuldja), etc.   

Edited by Akskl
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Posts: 352 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2005 at 14:29
Originally posted by Akskl

Rene Grousset ("Empire of the Steppes", "Genghis Khan") and Claproth noted that all the geographical names in the Secret History have been changed from Turkic to Khalkha-Mongolian ones today. For example: the lake Qyzyl-Bash (Red Head in Turkic) now is lake Ulyung-nor, the Sutkul lake (Milk lake in Kazakh, or any Turkic other language) is  Chagan Sairim nor (White Lake of Serenity) or just Sairam now (north of Kuldja), etc.   
LOL. I guess those bastards also changed "Sekiz" to "Naiman" at some point.

Edited by yan.
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Posts: 132 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2005 at 23:58
I can present many more similar geographical examples. Anybody who will read Rene Grousset's "Empire of the Steppes"" and ""Genghis Khan""  can find them himself (or herself).
It is very interesting -  why almost all  geographical  (toponymical) names  has been changed from the Turkic ones  in the ""Secret History"" to the modern times Khalkha-Mongolian ones?


Edited by Akskl
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Posts: 1831 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2005 at 03:16

Yan, there's no explanation, for the time being, about why we've got both 'naiman' and 'sekiz' in Altaic languages. But, anyhow, I have to say, again, I agree with Aksakal when he talks about geographical changes.  Aksaqal, men sen ke arqatash, qartash.

By the way Yan, '4' is 'tort/dort' in Turkic; and 'dorben' in Mongolian.  Take care buddy... 
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Posts: 352 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2005 at 12:56
Originally posted by gok_toruk

By the way Yan, '4' is 'tort/dort' in Turkic; and 'dorben' in Mongolian.  Take care buddy... 

Actually, in Halha Mongolian it's more like Duraw. Kalmyk may be a bit different, dunno.

Actually, my impression was that quite a lot of place names haven't changed  at all, esp. the big rivers and lakes mentioned. Maybe I had a 'corrected' version or didn't read far enough? Anyway, it would be nice to know where I can find Mr. Grousset's quote about the changed location names.

 

edit: "four" is drv - seems like I need some more practice on numbers and the difference between and u (and , for that matter). "drvn" is an inflected form, a bit like number+measure word.



Edited by yan.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 12:03
yes you looks now smart.you really need to read before saying something
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 12:08
4 is dorov,and dorvon oirad is mongolian people that fought ageanst manchu .in the dorvon oirad has oirad ,dorvod,uzemchin,bayad ect ,they still living in the mongolia
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Posts: 352 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2006 at 05:49
Originally posted by real mongol

yes you looks now smart.you really need to read before saying something
That post of mine is seven months old, and the correction came one or two days after the post IIRC. In the meantime, I have actually learnt to count to 10 LOL . I guess you never had problems with foreign numbers and letters that are pronounced in a rather unfamiliar way at all Tongue? 
 
 
 
I think there are groups called Dorvod with the Kalmyks as well, that's why I mentioned them.


Edited by yan. - 12-Jul-2006 at 05:59
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Sirdar Bahadur

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Posts: 5221 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2006 at 15:58
isn't Kalmyk the same as Oirat anyways in the first place or do i miss here something?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2006 at 20:07
Originally posted by Snafu

I'd like some translation help. The Secret History mentions a place called Botokan Bo'orji near the head of the Onon river. I can usually figure out most place names, but this one is a mystery to me. What does Botokan bo'orji translate into?  
 
Many of the place names are not in modern Mongolian language . Also many of them are not Mongolian, maybe Turkic or Tungus.
 
You should point out the what kind of EVENT took place in that area.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2006 at 20:08
Originally posted by Temujin

isn't Kalmyk the same as Oirat anyways in the first place or do i miss here something?
 
Kalmyks are westerm mongols of Oirat .
There can be many different clans or they could create their own clans.
 
The name Kalmyk is quite recent name for the people.
 
Mongolian word Kalmyk - (Khalimag) means actually-  OVERFLOWN- run out.
 
 


Edited by Zorigo - 12-Jul-2006 at 20:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2006 at 21:28
Originally posted by real mongol

4 is dorov,and dorvon oirad is mongolian people that fought ageanst manchu .in the dorvon oirad has oirad ,dorvod,uzemchin,bayad ect ,they still living in the mongolia
 
Oirads=Jungars started some war against other Nomads. They have been defeated by Kazak ppl & came to Ar-Mongolia. Ar-Mongolia was under Manchu rule. Manchu is union of Zurchin(=Hamnigan) & Tsahar Mongols(Mongol tribes like Harchin,Horchin,Ulan ude...etc). Halha Mongols joined this union. Oirads who lost their land to Kazaks started useless compaign against Manchu -at real point they wasn`t fighting againt Manchu, their mission was to catch & kill Halha Mongol noble to claim the land. They also burn many Buddist Temples.
In the very begining Jungars helped Tibetians to defeat Mongols, because of this Halha Mongols became weak againt Manchu union. 
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Posts: 352 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 12:20
Originally posted by Zorigo

Temujin:
sn't Kalmyk the same as Oirat anyways in the first place or do i miss here something?
 
 
 
 
Kalmyks are westerm mongols of Oirat .
There can be many different clans or they could create their own clans.
 
The name Kalmyk is quite recent name for the people.
 
Mongolian word Kalmyk - (Khalimag) means actually-  OVERFLOWN- run out.
 
 
I think Kalmyk was long used as name for all western mongol tribes (at least in German literature). But in the narrower sense used today, it refers only to those Mongolians living by the mouth of the Volga.


Edited by yan. - 25-Jul-2006 at 12:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 17:27
Originally posted by yan.

I think Kalmyk was long used as name for all western mongol tribes (at least in German literature). But in the narrower sense used today, it refers only to those Mongolians living by the mouth of the Volga.
 
I meant that name Kalmyk is as RECENT as name Khalkh Mongol or Buriad Mongol.
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kalmyks were actually Torguud Mongols.
 
Torguuds were originated from guards (torguud- torgon tsereg) of Mongol Great Khaans. P. Pelliot translated the name "Torghut" as garde de jour. He wrote that the Torghuts owed their name either to the memory of the guard of Chingis Khan or, as descendants of the Keraits, to the old garde de jour which existed among the Keraits, as we know from the Secret History of the Mongols, before it was taken over by Chingis Khan (Pelloit, 1930:30). 
 
While Eastern Mongols have direct lineage to Chinggis Khaan, Durvun Oirats have connection to Chinggis Khan by virtue of the fact that Chingis Khan's brother, Khasar, was in command of the Khoshuut tribe.
 
Later in XV -XVI century, Torguut were one of main clans of Durvun Oirat -Alliance of Four which included Khoshuut, Choros, Torguut and Durvud.
During the climax of Zuungar Empire of Durvun Oirats, Torguuds had to struggle against Choros. Eventually,  in 1630 Head of Torguud clan Hoo Urlug led some of Torguud people  to west Volga river, left Il Tarbagatai.
 
Untill XVIII century, Torguut were independant kingdom in friendly term with Russia.  
 
Remaining Torguuts in Il Tarbagatai become minor clan in Zuungar Empire.
After the Zuungar Empires struggle against Manchus ended in 1757 with the extermination of the Oirats in Zuungar,  Torguuts under Shiiren Taij, about 10000 family left for West- Volga river an stayed there almost 20 years. 
The Kalmyk Khanate reached its peak of military and political power under Ayuka Khan (1669 -1724). During his era, the Kalmyk Khanate fulfilled its responsibility to protect the southern borders of Russia and conducted many military expeditions against its Turkic-speaking neighbors. Successful military expeditions were also conducted in the Caucasus. The Khanate experienced economic prosperity from free trade with Russian border towns, China, Tibet and with their Muslim neighbors. During this era, the Kalmyks also kept close contacts with their Oirat kinsmen in Dzungaria as well as the Dalai Lama in Tibet.
 
Ubashi Khan, the great-grandson Ayuka Khan and the last Kalmyk Khan, decided to return his people to their ancestral homeland, Dzungaria. Under his leadership, approximately 200,000 Kalmyks migrated directly across the Central Asian desert. Along the way, many Kalmyks were killed in ambushes or captured and enslaved by their Kazakh and Kyrgyz enemies. Many also died of starvation or thirst. After several grueling months of travel, only 96,000 Kalmyks reached the Manchu Empire's western outposts Xinjiang near the Balkhash Lake..
 
Mongols believe that the name Kalmyk was given to those groups that did not return to their ancient homeland in 1771. If the name Kalmyk existed before this time present Torguuds in Mongolia and China would have name Kalmyk too.
 
In the Homeland Zuungar and Western Mongolia
Since 1771, returned Torguud settled in Zuungar and Western Mongolia. In 1783 they become border guard in area of Hocots uul, Khar uul and started cultivating land and living on agriculture.
In 1912, some Torguud joined newly independant Bogd Khaant Mongol Ulus.
In 1925 , under government of People's republic of Mongolia, Torguut Mongols were organized as administrative unit under Chandmani Uul Aimag. In 1929, it become Bulgan Mandal Uul khoshuu (administrative unit).
 
Since 1931, it become Bulgan Soum of Khovd aimag.  Torguuds are divided into Sharanhud, Bargas, Burgud, Sharnuud, Khengirad, Khereid, Sharas, Zamaad, Merged, Khoid, Khotguud (kazakh), Burduud, Khoshuud (Avjiin, Bagshin, Baatad, Egus, Guchin urkh) clans.
 
There are also many torguud clans in Xinjiang PRC. Most of them settled in Hovog sair (Hovog river, Sair mountain). Also there are 54 soum in Kharshaar, Ereen khavirga, 14 soum in Il.
 
 
For Kalmyk Republic in Russia.


Edited by Zorigo - 26-Jul-2006 at 17:38
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yan. View Drop Down
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Posts: 352 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 10:27
I meant 19th/ early 20th century.
 
Do you know which name Catharine the Great used for those Torguud ?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 14:31
Originally posted by yan.

I meant 19th/ early 20th century.
 
Do you know which name Catharine the Great used for those Torguud ?
So that means name Kalmyk is very recent
Do you have any historical source for your post?
 
As far as i know A. S. Pushkin had symphaty for Kalmyks.
 
Interesting he wrote poem. I don't know quality of translation into english

A. S. Pushkin
"To a Kalmyk Woman"

(Line-by-line tr. By Gitta Hammarberg; no attempt has been made to reproduce the poetical qualities of the text)

Farewell, lovely Kalmyk woman
Despite my plans
Your commendable customs
Just about carried me along into the midst of the steppe
After your kibitka covered wagon
For sure, your eyes are narrow,
Your nose flat, and your forehead wide,
You don't chatter in French,
You don't squeeze your legs into silk,
In front of the samovar you don't
crumble up bread into shapes in the english manner
You don't get high on Saint-Mar
You don't particularly esteem Shakespeare
You don't slip[ into dreaminess
When ther4e's not a thought in your head,
You don't pipe up with Ma dov'e`, [It. song: "But where..."]
You don't gallop forth at a party. . .
Who needs it all? --Exactly for half an hour,
While my horses were being harnessed
My mind and heart were preoccupied
With your glance and savage beauty.
My friends! Isn't it all the same:
To let one's idle thoughts wander
In a brilliant hall, in a fashionable lodge
Or in a nomad's kibitka
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Posts: 352 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 07:55
Rene Grousset, Empire of the Steppes, New Brunswick 1970, p.506 says that the Oirat were called Kalmyk by their turcic neighbours in Kashgaria. I didn't look if he does give any source for that.
 
Re. Kalmyk as a generic name for all Western Mongols, one would have to take a look into older literature dealing with Mongols. Get a 19th/early 20th century book about Mongols and chances are it calls all Oirats Kalmyks.
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