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SuryaVajra
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Topic: Greatest Buddhist and Hindu Dynasties of India? Posted: 24-Jul-2012 at 23:20 |
The Particular column is an Ashoka Pillar built by Ashoka in around 300 BC. The ruins of other structures like the Pushkarani and the Ananda stupa (which perhaps contain Buddhas relics) are much older and built by the Videhans. They took control of the Buddhas relics after his death in 483 BC. Ofcourse this does nor mean there were not columns before that.As I said, Republics maintained autonomy under their conquerors until they vanished in 400 AD. There was a hundred pillared hall built before this particular pillar at Kumrahar, where the second Buddhist council was held. The oldest columns in India are found in the bronze age city of Dholavira,(3000-1900 BC). Corresponding to this, the Vedas do talk of Columns(4000--2000 BC being their era of composition) Please tell me of the oldest columns in the middle east...
Edited by SuryaVajra - 25-Jul-2012 at 01:51
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oxydracae
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Posted: 25-Jul-2012 at 10:02 |
Originally posted by SuryaVajra
Oxydracae, Tribes dont built cities and maintain organized Armies and States.. |
yupp, but I used the term "Tribal Republics" cause the basis of these Republics was laid down by Indo-Aryan tribes. And the word " Jana" in " Janapada" means 'tribal unit' and Earliest Buddhist Texts refer that these Janas or 'Tribal Unit' built cities and maintained armies.
Originally posted by Nick1986
Those columns look Grecian, yet the civilisation existed over 300 years before Alexander. What were its origins? | This column was built by Mauryan Emperor Ashoka, around 250 to 240 BC, 80 or 90 years after the death of Alexander, and no doubt Mauryan Columns were influenced from Persian and Greek Coulmns.
Originally posted by SuryaVajra
Please tell me of the oldest columns in the middle east... |
I believe Göbekli Tepe built around 9500 BC ?
Edited by oxydracae - 25-Jul-2012 at 10:06
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Nick1986
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Posted: 25-Jul-2012 at 19:47 |
What would Buddha have thought of the veneration of his relics? He himself rejected the worship of deities as a distraction from the path to enlightenment
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SuryaVajra
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Posted: 26-Jul-2012 at 05:19 |
Originally posted by oxydracae
yupp, but I used the term "Tribal Republics" cause the basis of these Republics was laid down by Indo-Aryan tribes. And the word "Jana" in "Janapada" means 'tribal unit' and Earliest Buddhist Texts refer that these Janas or 'Tribal Unit' built cities and maintained armies.
and no doubt Mauryan Columns were influenced from Persian and Greek Coulmns.
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The word Jana, by the time of the Janapadas atleast , meant simply "The people"
In all Indian languages today, the word means the Citizens or the people.
Yes, some scholars suggest the idea of an capital of an animal was adapted from the Persians. But you will not note that the Persian Columns had semi Mythical or Mythical Capitals . Mauryans had only Lions.
But I cant find any predating Greek column that identifies with the polished circular Mauryan pillars.
Originally posted by oxydracae
I believe Göbekli Tepe built around 9500 BC ? |
That Turkish site was impressive but they are neolithic Megaliths, not pillars. Megaliths cannot be simply referred to as Columns. They are found all over the planet in all shapes and sizes.
The most famous megaliths are at the Stonehenge in UK.
India has a pretty large collection however
Dont quote me on the dates....I am still working on it. As far as my search went, it seems Turkey has the oldest--as you would say.
If you ask me, the first Proper Columns were built in Bronze age cities of Egypt and India . Egyptians were unrivaled in their expertise . Indian Columns took time to blossom but it did blossom .
This one is in Pakistan.
An Example in India
Plenty more from where that came from
http://www.megalithindia.in/
Edited by SuryaVajra - 26-Jul-2012 at 13:27
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Nick1986
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Posted: 26-Jul-2012 at 19:26 |
Perhaps Gobekli Tepe's megaliths were actually the columns of wooden palaces and temples that have long-since rotted away?
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SuryaVajra
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Posted: 27-Jul-2012 at 02:35 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
Perhaps Gobekli Tepe's megaliths were actually the columns of wooden palaces and temples that have long-since rotted away?
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That is a very painful thing to accept , considering the primitive nature of the Neolithic man. It is as disturbing as the possibility that there is a submerged civilization off the coast of Dwarka and modern geologists insist that the western coast of India got submerged around 17,000 BC. The Turkish site and the underwater Dwarka are two sites that can destroy our modern chronology of Civilization. But some scholars agree with you , that the Turkish site is precocious . I took 10 minutes to swallow the dating of 9500 BC. I know what some Cowards might say......
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oxydracae
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Posted: 27-Jul-2012 at 14:42 |
we can't compare Göbekli Tepe with underwater Dwarka, because the archaeology of Göbekli Tepe is well established whereas regarding underwater Dwarka there are many archaeological controversies, and some archaeologist even call it pseudo-archaeology.
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medenaywe
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Posted: 27-Jul-2012 at 15:56 |
Explain us more about Dwarka?
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 27-Jul-2012 at 16:27 |
Originally posted by oxy drake
we can't compare Göbeklitepe with underwater Dwarka, because the archaeology of Göbeklitepe is well established whereas regarding underwater Dwarka there are many archaeological controversies, and some archaeologist even call it pseudo-archaeology. |
Quite correct and thanks for pointing that out versus the norm which is feigned intellectual obfuscation learned movement by moment to merely substantiate a pet cause. And as far as I am concerned any future reference belongs in the thread dealing with the same that is already here. There is science and pseudo...you couple that with nationalistic or unwarranted scientific reductionism or theological hyperbole counter revisionist fervor and covert bigotry; that would attempt revisionism viz raw speculative not objective analysis. Your skating on no ice not thin. Iow. Any theorem is welcome but until you bring forward mainstream opposition in an objective analysis....as much as that which would support...your losing. You don't spam on my watch with an attempt at unsubstantiated references or sources that are challenegable that belong elsewhere. Period. Don't like it.... leave. Dispute my authority to control it and I will ban the offender for a Coc violation. Period.
Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 27-Jul-2012 at 16:30
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Nick1986
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Posted: 27-Jul-2012 at 20:13 |
Originally posted by SuryaVajra
Originally posted by Nick1986
Perhaps Gobekli Tepe's megaliths were actually the columns of wooden palaces and temples that have long-since rotted away?
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That is a very painful thing to accept , considering the primitive nature of the Neolithic man.
It is as disturbing as the possibility that there is a submerged civilization off the coast of Dwarka and modern geologists insist that the western coast of India got submerged around 17,000 BC.
The Turkish site and the underwater Dwarka are two sites that can destroy our modern chronology of Civilization.
But some scholars agree with you , that the Turkish site is precocious . I took 10 minutes to swallow the dating of 9500 BC.
I know what some Cowards might say......
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Who says neolithic man was primitive? The Egyptians and Aztecs built their cities using only stone tools and only adopted iron and bronze when they came into contact with foreigners
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SuryaVajra
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Posted: 29-Jul-2012 at 08:16 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
Who says neolithic man was primitive? The Egyptians and Aztecs built their cities using only stone tools and only adopted iron and bronze when they came into contact with foreigners
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I didn't disagree with you. I said I took time to accept it.
Originally posted by medenaywe
Explain us more about Dwarka?
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Sir, Please watch this video . Its a five video series on Dwarka. The city has been submerged 5 times in history, the first being right after the ice age. Pre-harappan ancient city found part 1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVhgsLPUVu0 I would insist that you guys patiently watch the five videos for a full picture. If you guys feel too lazy to watch them all, atleast watch Part 5. Its absolutely essential http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPLjnBetTZ0 Close to the coast, just a few feet below is the ruins of a medieval date. Below is the runs of a walled city dating back to 1500 BC---just after the Indus valley cities collapsed -------------------------------------------------------------xxxx---------------------------------------------------------- But miles off the shore is the real deal, 120 feet below .Here below is a recreation of the underwater structures dated back to the end of the last ice age. An object recovered has been carbon dated to 7500 BC. So the mature phase of the city is estimated at 12,000 BC.
Notable features
1. Twin walled cities too big to be called villages
2. A remarkable series of stairs, leading to what appears to a pushkarani or pool seen in the Indus Saraswathy cities and most Indian temples
3. A citadel
4. Advanced geometrical patterns .
You see, the area of this site 25 miles off shore, 120 feet below, has not seen the sun for the past 12,000--10,000 - years--Unlike the later sites including a Harappan city wall which was destroyed in 1500 BC. This might overturn everything mordern textbooks tech about the origins of Civilization Some of the manmade artefacts recovered The mordern Dwarka
Originally posted by oxydracae
we can't compare Göbekli Tepe with underwater Dwarka, because the archaeology of Göbekli Tepe is well established whereas regarding underwater Dwarka there are many archaeological controversies, and some archaeologist even call it pseudo-archaeology. |
Its painful to accept it. But in the end, if verification approves, all the established dogmas should be shattered. It is also painful to see more of that wonted "nationalist card" being pulled on me . The Dwarka phenomenon has its greatest proponents in the West.It is an eminent western university that has conducted Geological studies and presented the water level rise charts that proved a huge loss of Land in the west coast of India at the end of the last ice age(21,000 BP) Oxydraceae, You are correct in that Dwarka is lagging behind in archaeology. It has not been funded properly . Quite contrary to your claims , Dwarka is well attested in Vedic literature, in Geological studies and resonance imagery. Underwater archaeology has lagged behind as there are technical difficulties in studying a site 120 feet below the sea. But the sea bed imagery and the artifacts collected have validated the presence of man made structures .
Edited by SuryaVajra - 29-Jul-2012 at 10:42
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Posted: 29-Jul-2012 at 08:34 |
This post ignores procedure for the moment and looks at mythology. The Veda site is biased but it has offered its own bibliography. Dwarka is one of the most important cities in Vedic Literature. Much like the city of Troy, Dwarka only confirms thousands of years of literature. It was the Capital of the Yadavas, ruled by Krishna. On the comparability of archaeology and lore I found the following article. Historicity of Dwarka
In the early eighties an important archaeological site was found in Bharat, at Dwaraka, the site of the legendary city of Shri Krishna.
Dwaraka was submerged by the sea right after the death of Shri Krishna.
This inscription refers to Dwaraka as the capital of the western coast
of Saurashtra and still more important, states that Shri Krishna lived
here. The discovery of the legendary city of Dwaraka which is said to
have been founded by Shri Krishna, is an important landmark in the
history of Bharat. It has set to rest the doubts expressed by historians
about the historicity of Mahabharata and the very existence of Dwaraka
city. It has greatly narrowed the gap in Indian history by establishing
the continuity of the Indian civilization from the Vedic Age to the
present day.
Now fresh archeological evidence has surfaced proving beyond
reasonable doubt the existence of the historic city of Dwaraka, and
throwing light on the lives of people who inhabited the "City of Gold".
Excavations at Dwaraka that began in 1981 helped add credence to the
legend of Krishna and the Mahabharat war as well as provide ample
evidence of the advanced societies that lived in these areas-the
Harappan settlements that represent some of the world’s greatest
civilization. One of the first outposts to be excavated, soon after
independence was in the Ahmedabad district. Evidence suggests that these
settlers brought with them a highly developed culture that was rich not
just in the arts but in the sciences as well. The emphasis was on a
well-organised society based on trade that was conducted through their
ports.
Dwaraka, for example was a well-planned township, its harbour
consisted of a rocky ridge modified into an anchorage for berthing
vessels, a unique feature in harbour technology that was in use even
before the Phoenicians attempted this in the Mediterranean sea much
later. The man-made holes in the ridge and the large stone anchors lying
there suggest that large ships used to be anchored there while smaller
boats carried men and cargo up the river.
The foundation of boulders on which the city's walls were erected
proves that the land was reclaimed from the sea about 3,600 years ago.
The Mahabharata has references to such reclamation activity at Dwaraka.
Seven islands mentioned in it have also been discovered submerged in the
Arabian Sea. Pottery, which has been established by thermoluminiscence
tests to be 3,528 years old and carrying inscriptions in late Indus
Valley civilization script; iron stakes and triangular three-holed
anchors discovered here find mention in the Mahabharata. Among the many
objects unearthed that further prove Dwaraka's connection with the epic
is a seal engraved with the image of a three-headed animal. The epic
mentions that such a seal was given to the citizens of Dwaraka as a
proof of identity when the city was threatened by King Jarasandha of the
powerful Magadh kingdom. Dr Rao, of the National Institute of
Oceanography that was instrumental in conducting much of the underwater
excavations
These evidences prove beyond doubt that Kusasthali, a pre-Dwaraka
settlement did exist in Bet, Dwaraka. Archeologists have concluded that
this early settlement of Kusasthali was first occupied and fortified
during the Mahabharata period and was named Dwaraka. After realizing
that the narrow terraces were not sufficient for the increasing
population, a new town was built a few years later at the mouth of the
river Gomati. This planned port city was also called Dwaraka, further
adding credence to the fact that the Mahabharata was not a myth but an
important source of history. Interesting descriptions about its construction are found in Puranas:
Fearing attack from Jarasangh and Kaalayvan on Mathura, Shri Krishna
and Yadavas left Mathura and arrived at the coast of Saurashtra. They
decided to build their capital in the coastal region and invoke the
Vishwakarma the deity of construction. However, Vishwakarma says that
the task can be completed only if Samudradev, the Lord of the sea
provided some land. Shri Krishna worshipped Samudradev, who was pleased
and gave them land measuring 12 yojans and the Lord vishwakarma build
Dwaraka, a "city in gold".
Arjuna went to Dwarka to bring Krishna's grandsons and the Yadava wives to Hastinapur. After Arjun left Dwaraka, it was submerged in the sea. This is the account given by Arjuna, in Mahabharat:
"The sea, which had been beating against the shores, suddenly broke
the boundary that was imposed on it by nature. The sea rushed into the
city. It coursed through the streets of the beautiful city. The sea
covered up everything in the city. I saw the beautiful buildings
becoming submerged one by one. In a matter of a few moments it was all
over. The sea had now become as placid as a lake. There was no trace of
the city. Dwaraka was just a name; just a memory."
----Mahabharata.
"If we suppose that Dwarka submerged due to a tsunami, the gradual movement of the sea can't be explained".
Director of the state archaeology department YS Rawat, too, believes
that a tsunami could well have done to ancient Dwarka what it did to
Aceh. "It is just that in the ancient times such sea activity was not
known as tsunami.
It is possible that large waves like that of a tsunami struck Dwarka
and drowned it," he says. "In fact, near the sea of today's Dwarka, one
can find remnants of Harappan culture during low tide."
But here are three texts including the Harivamsa, the Matsya Purana
and the Bhagavat-gita, which state that it took seven days to vacate
Dwaraka before it was submerged by the sea. If we suppose that Dwaraka
submerged due to a tsunami, the gradual movement of the sea can't be
explained.
Swami Sadanand Saraswati, the secretary of the Shardapith Dwarka
says, "Yes, Dwarka was devastated by the sea. According to the Bhagvat
Gita, the Ekadash Skand mentions Krishna sending a message to the people
of Dwarka. He told them that once he leaves , there would be
no one on this earth to save Dwarka. The sea would finish Dwarka and
hence he asks the 56 crore Yaduvanshis to leave Dwarka". http://veda.wikidot.com/dwaraka
Edited by SuryaVajra - 29-Jul-2012 at 10:40
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Nick1986
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Posted: 29-Jul-2012 at 19:18 |
Interesting. It seems Atlantis wasn't the only ancient city lost to the sea.
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SuryaVajra
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Posted: 29-Jul-2012 at 23:47 |
Like Oxydraceae said, some cowardly individuals call it as "Pseudo Archaeology' . They have not gotten over the shock of the prospect . They find it easier to ignore Dwarka than to confront it and hope that it will vanish off their nightmares . Dwarka does not get the attention it deserves. It is slowly , once again, falling into Oblivion. I would make a bold assertion here. My Induction is thus....... Greeks ==Bharathas ===Common Y chromosomal lineage (Halogroup R1a1 ) not earlier than 18,000 BC. Greek ==Sanskrit ==Indo European Greek Pantheon==Vedic Pantheon Zeus Pater === Rig Vedic Dyaus Pitar Iliad ===Mahabharatha (In many ways you never had a clue of) Odyssey ==Ramayana ( Parallels not as impressive as between Iliad and Bharatha , but the Archery contest for the suitor is an exact version like many others) Greek Philosophy & Vedanta have unbelievable parallels with a monist tending. Greek Heracles == Vedic Krishna Then we have two sunken cities ---Dwarka & Atlantis. Atlantis had not been found, but Dwaraka has .Added to this, Greeks are mentioned in the Mahabharata as a participant in the Kurukshetra war( November 22 3067 BCE) . I know my conclusion.
Edited by SuryaVajra - 29-Jul-2012 at 23:53
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red clay
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Posted: 30-Jul-2012 at 10:12 |
Considering there is 20 million sq. miles of land that was once above the sea, I believe Dwaraka is only the first to be found. And only the first to be found in that area. The area that was inundated is vast.
If you go to Google Earth, there are many instances of roadways and other features that exist underwater. Some are certainly natural formations, but there are many that are not.
In the UK there is the Lost Land of Lyonesse. In sat. photos one can see roads that seemingly end at the waters edge, continue out for some miles.
On the Pacific coast, there is the lost land of Mu. There are legends in other places that haven't been examined yet.
The best known of the sunken citys is Atlantis. The location of the city itself is unknown. But the City of Atlantis is only a tiny fraction of what was. Plato's account has the "10 Kingdoms of Atlantis" and had a "Plain" that was several hundred miles across. He also states that the "Capitol" city had buildings made of red and black stone.
All of these things are to be found on the East coast of S. America. The "city" of Atlantis was very likely a trading outpost for the main population centers of that time, much like the Island of Thera was to the Minoan Civ. But don't confuse the 2 sites as some folks have.
There are many people who feel very comfortable with the idea that we are the first Civ. to have evolved on this planet. Any ideas contrary to this threatens their "comfort level". And any suggestion that these folks had advanced technologies, is met with skeptisim. These folks then feel that it's perfectly logical that ET's brought this technology. ????
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SuryaVajra
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Posted: 30-Jul-2012 at 11:16 |
I think a new topic on this would be nice. What do you think Clay?. I appreciate the effort to locate Atlantis based on the mention of building materials . But how valid is a very very young description by Plato, thousands of years after the alleged event? In the case of Dwarka, we dont have such a huge time gap and literary record directly overlaps with an archaeological location. We have no real evidence to close in on Atlantis.You cant build history on myths. But if you consider the circumstantial evidence that Bharatas and Greeks had a common past, civilization, culture and ancestors, Dwarka is the best candidate for Atlantis. Atlantis | Dwarka | Atlantis was relatively advanced, well-organized and prosperous civilization. “…island
of Atlantis there existed a confederation of kings, of great and
marvelous power, which held sway over all the island, and over many
other islands also and parts of the continent.” | Dwarka
was built by Vishwakarma on request of Lord Krishna. It had six
well-organized sectors, residential and commercial zones, wide roads,
plazas, palaces and many public utilities. A hall called “Sudharma
Sabha” was built to hold public meetings. The city also boasted having
the possession of a good sea harbor. The city had palaces made
of gold, silver and other precious stones. – Wikipedia | Atlantis flourished and submerged to sea approximately 11000 BP, as claimed by Plato
| Old Dwarka was lost to sea in 7500 BP, 36 years after the war of Mahabharata. | Its
destruction was the result of global cataclysm – The island of Atlantis
was swallowed up by the sea in a single dreadful day and a night… “But
at a later time there occurred portentous earthquakes and floods, and
one grievous day and night befell them, when the whole body of your
warriors was swallowed up by the earth, and the island of Atlantis in
like manner was swallowed up by the sea and vanished; wherefore also the
ocean at that spot has now become impassable and unsearchable, being
blocked up by the shoal mud which the island created as it settled
down.” | Following is the account given by Arjuna, found in the Mahabharata: …imposed
on it by nature. The sea rushed into the city. It coursed through the
streets of the beautiful city. The sea covered up everything in the
city. I saw the beautiful buildings becoming submerged one by one. In a
matter of a few moments it was all over. The sea had now become as
placid as a lake. There was no trace of the city. Dwarka was just a
name; just a memory. | Location not found, different people have given different location of Atlantis over the years with the possibility that Atlantis can exist anywhere on earth… | Found in Gulf Of Cambay. The old Dwarka is located near the site of the current city of Dwarka in Gujarat, India, few kilometers from shore in the sea. | Atlantis
has always been a myth and a topic of debate for scholars and
researchers for its existence. The only known account of Atlantis
mention is in Plato’s conversation with Hermocrates, Socrates, Timaeus of Locri & Critias in 360 BC. | Dwarka on the other hand is mentioned in the Mahabharata, the Bhagavata Purana, the Vishnu Purana, and many other Hindu literature. | http://thealienworld.com/2010/07/31/atlantis-vs-dwarka/ Nah........This is way off the topic ........The topic is on Hindu Buddhist Kingdoms. I quit
Edited by SuryaVajra - 30-Jul-2012 at 12:00
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red clay
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Posted: 30-Jul-2012 at 13:46 |
And the subject fell to submerged citys. I was simply trying to support your claims for Dwaraka. What?, you can't handle the idea that there are other Civs. not connected to India or Hinduism. I bring up the possibility and likelyhood that Atlantis, as an ancient Civ. did exist and roughly where, and you try to claim it as part of some lost hindu empire. I would suggest that you do a lot of reading before you lock that idea in.
I actually hate the "A" word, as it brings in decades of bad Archeaology and strange agendas. I prefer to refer to "The Lost Civilization" instead.
Atlantis is reffd. to in many other ancient sources besides Plato. You can say what you wish about Plato's description, but everything that he wrote about can be found in S. America.
What your going to run into is that there were many other Civilizations, existing at the same time as Dawarka.
You quit, why? Because I don't happen to agree that the Hindu culture was the only one existing at the time? If you were a little more open minded, you'd see that I wasn't trying to hijack your thread but providing support for the existence of unknown submerged Civs. But your Hinducentrism gets in the way.
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red clay
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Posted: 30-Jul-2012 at 14:07 |
The seismic event that destroyed Atlantis was an earthquake of incredible destructive power. It occurred at roughly the same time as the destruction of Atlantis. The quake actually caused an uplifting of the lower half of S. America of several thousand feet. Tiauanaco had a waterfront on Lake Titticaca. Studies on the soil have showed this. The lake's shoreline is now 60 miles north. This event would have produced a tsunami of incredible size and destructive power.
The timeline you give for the inundation of Dwaraka is about the same as the inundation of the Mediteranean, and the Black Sea. Gobekli Tepe would have already been abandoned and the "Osirian" Civilization would have been wiped out by the same event.
Edited by red clay - 30-Jul-2012 at 14:14
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Posted: 30-Jul-2012 at 14:27 |
I was just reading the older posts. The columns at Gobekli are not Megaliths. They have been carved and cut specifically for their use, to hold up the roof of the structure. And the latest dating on the earliest levels at Gobekli places it at about 12,000 to 15,000 ybp.
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Nick1986
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Posted: 30-Jul-2012 at 19:46 |
Originally posted by red clay
The seismic event that destroyed Atlantis was an earthquake of incredible destructive power. It occurred at roughly the same time as the destruction of Atlantis. The quake actually caused an uplifting of the lower half of S. America of several thousand feet. Tiauanaco had a waterfront on Lake Titticaca. Studies on the soil have showed this. The lake's shoreline is now 60 miles north. This event would have produced a tsunami of incredible size and destructive power.
The timeline you give for the inundation of Dwaraka is about the same as the inundation of the Mediteranean, and the Black Sea. Gobekli Tepe would have already been abandoned and the "Osirian" Civilization would have been wiped out by the same event.
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What caused an earthquake of this scale? A volcanic eruption or meteor? Perhaps the destruction of Sodom and Noah's flood were also the result of this disaster
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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