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TheAlaniDragonRising View Drop Down
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Posts: 6084 		  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Slavorum.com
    Posted: 02-Aug-2012 at 22:42
It would unfortunately seem that there are those who either by accident are mixing up the terms Bulgar and Bulgarian, or are following the all too familiar approach of those seeking to bridge a gap between classical antiquity and a modern population in a similar fashion as the Ahnenerbe of 1930's Germany. I will leave it to others to theorise as to the possibilities, for proof here is not in my hands. However this thread has nothing to do with such things, or shouldn't do, and should now hopefully be brought back on track. Enough said.Smile
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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Posts: 4734 		  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2012 at 11:04
As for wiki, thre are -lenty of examples of good info there, as the following example:
"...Genetically, modern Bulgarians are more closely related to other Balkan populations (Macedonians, Serbs, Greeks, Romanians, Albanians, Croatians and Hungarians) than to the rest of the Europeans.[77][78][79] The Bulgarians also have minor similarities with other Mediterranean populations such as Armenians, Italians, Anatolians, Cretans and Sardinians.[80][81] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians#Genetic_origin

According to Eupedia, the Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup results about Bulgarians are the following: R1b � 18%, R1a � 14%, I � 37%, J2 � 17%, E1b1b � 12%.[82] In this way, a majority (>2/3) of the Bulgarians belong to one of the three major European Y-DNA haplogroups � I, R1a and R1b. All three groups migrated to Europe during the Upper Paleolithic, around 30,000 BC. Around 10,000 ago, some neolithic lineages, originating in the Middle East, as J2 and E1b1b, have brought the agriculture to Europe, including today Bulgaria...."
http://illyria.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=geneticsbasedstudies&action=print&thread=28607
 Which doesn't mean that everything written there is supported, or anymore valid. I was raised on the Turkic origin theory, that now is refuted and in shambles.

Btw, I posted here enough info on the topic, and besied this is not a thread about the origin of the Bulgarians per se, so if someone wants to follow up, I'd recommend to make a thread about that.
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Posts: 4734 		  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2012 at 10:47
http://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Alterling/Bulgar.html is someone's poor understanding and stating an old and refuted theory, most probably with a politicical idea in mind. This is not historical cite by any means; and the genetic research refutes that the Bulgars were Turks.

"...A peculiar Slavic-Mediterranean gene admixture is in the core of the Bulgarian nation, a new Bulgarian-Italian genetic study has revealed.

Gene probes of 855 Bulgarians, including individuals from the country's Islam population, have been gathered and compared with other European nations, Professor Draga Toncheva from the Sofia-based Medical University has explained in an interview for the Bulgarian National Radio.

The results have failed to show any Turkic connection in the Bulgarians nation's genesis, contrary to popular beliefs.

Croatians, Poles, Ukrainians and other Slavic nations are closest to Bulgarians, according to the study. However, Bulgarians are a peculiar type of Slavs, since they also have Mediterranean genes,  head of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences' Microbiology Institute Angel Galabov has pointed out.

The Bulgarians' "peculiarity" has probably been the result of their contacts with ancient Thracians, scientists reckon.

The place of origin of the Ancient Bulgarians is most likely Eastern Iran, a group of anthropologists and scientists claimed in 2010 after an exploratory trip to the Persian lands...."http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=131894

"...The genotyping of 60 biallelic markers was performed in hierarchical order by RFLP and DHPLC analyses. The position of Bulgarians among other populations was visualized by Principal Component (PC) analysis.
About 80% of the total genetic variation in Bulgarians falls within haplogroups E-M35, I-M170, J-M172, R-M17 and R-M269. This finding shows that the Bulgarian haplogroup profile is congruent with those described for most European populations.
Among the prehistoric events marked by the observed haplogroups, the greatest contribution comes from the range expansion of local Mesolithic foragers triggered by adoption of agriculture introduced by a cadre of Near Eastern farmers. The Bulgarian Y chromosome gene pool also bears signals of the recolonization from different glacial refugia, the spread of agriculture from the Near East and the expansion of early farmers along the Central and East European river basins...." http://www.abstractsonline.com/Plan/ViewAbstract.aspx?sKey=006d5e3a-ea14-49ff-9b39-f0a042d39185&cKey=bfc88c56-5e93-4ee2-89e6-c3ab1bd25f5c&mKey={DFC2C4B1-FBCD-433D-86DD-B15521A77070}
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TheAlaniDragonRising View Drop Down
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Posts: 6084 		  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2012 at 18:55
Not withstanding the elitists myth of general poor quality information on Wikipedia from time to time( a great deal of professional bodies both use and update Wiki pages, and those caught trying to falsify information are banned), there has tended to be said origins for the Bulgars that suggest either Turkic, Alani, or Turkic/Alani. Although the Alani themselves have had suggestions of having a language which might have been mixed with Turkic too. Saying this however I have found a link with a far more scientific sounding approach which I must bow to, putting a much more compelling case as to the linguistic origins of the Bulgars. http://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Alterling/Bulgar.html
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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Posts: 17084 		  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2012 at 10:21
Is that Little Match Girl citation as a source?!Regards Cyberfedain and welcome to forum!Have a nice time here.Big smileCheshire smile bows to You!
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Posts: 6 		  Quote Cyberfedain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2012 at 10:10
Bulgarians in bulgaria actually have nothing common with protobulgars. Protobulgars were nomads and established great scythe kingdom in afganistan, it’s name was Baktria (kingdom of happiness), capital was “Bulgar” then turned simply to “Bulh” or “Balh” for example the greatest poet Mevlana Rumi was half turk-bulgarian from Balh, before mongolian invasion his family migrated to Turkey. The truly bulgarians live in Russia and Caucasia, republic of kabardey-balgar,moreover those protobulgars made mongolians convert into muslim faith, they were most civilyzed nomads and established worlds biggest empires like Kushans,India,China (yes it’s unbelievable but actually all those countries were established by nomads), it can be easily traced by simply identifications of etnonym – ARIAN, all nomads tribes-nations names had ending as –ARIAN, starting from Atilla Hunns- kutigarians, utigarians, majarians, tatarians, bulgarians, bashkirians, balkarians, hazarians, azarians, avarians,agacarians, kangarians,subarians (siberia turks) – and so on (about 20-30 nations) and all of them turkic.


P.S.   AT the times of Byzans empire, turkic nomads were hired by byzans kings to ward off the goths attacks, so that means the weak nomads were enslaved and became half slavic/half bulgar, the strong alfa nomads went further conquering arabs, jews, africa, russia, europe with Parthia, Samanid,Ottomans, Seldjuk, Jenguizhan, Timurleng warlike armies.

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Posts: 4734 		  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2012 at 08:59
There are plenty of studies that prove that proto-Bulgarian, or Bulgar language is Indo-European, but they are all in Bulgarian. like this one  http://www.protobulgarians.com/Statii%20za%20prabaalgarite/Nadpisi/Nadpis%20ot%20selo%20Garvan%20-%20Margarita%20Vaklinova/Nadpis%20ot%20selo%20Garvan%20-%20M%20Vaklinova.htm  . In any case, the case deserves a more serious study than a wiki page.



Edited by Don Quixote - 04-Jul-2012 at 09:00
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Posts: 4734 		  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2012 at 08:52
The Bulgars, also known as the Old Bulgarians, weren't Turkic, and wiki is wrong in that case. The Bulgar language was branded "Turkic" on a paltry evidence, with like 5 words, which may have not been Turkic at all to start with, /like "boliar". which came out to be old Russian word/. In any case, the theory of the Bulgars being Turkic is refuted; and the modern Bulgarians don't have Turkic gene markers at all.
"...Sena Karachanak, Viola Grugni, Desislava Nesheva, Vincenza Battaglia, S. Fornarino, N. Al-Zahery, Valeria Carossa, Yordan Yordanov, Angel S. Galabov, B. Atanasov, Antonio Torroni, Draga Toncheva, and Ornella Semino. "Y-Chromosome genetic variation of modern Bulgarians." A presentation at the European Human Genetics Conference 2011, Amsterdam, the Netherlands, May 28-31, 2011. Excerpts from the presentation abstract:
"[...] in order to comprehensively characterize Bulgarian Y-chromosome variation, we have performed high-resolution phylogenetic analysis of 812 healthy, unrelated Bulgarian males and compared the results with Y-chromosome data from other Eurasian populations. [...] About 80% of the total genetic variation in Bulgarians falls within haplogroups E-M35, I-M170, J-M172, R-M17 and R-M269. This finding shows that the Bulgarian haplogroup profile is congruent with those described for most European populations. Among the prehistoric events marked by the observed haplogroups, the greatest contribution comes from the range expansion of local Mesolithic foragers triggered by adoption of agriculture introduced by a cadre of Near Eastern farmers. The Bulgarian Y chromosome gene pool also bears signals of the recolonization from different glacial refugia, the spread of agriculture from the Near East and the expansion of early farmers along the Central and East European river basins. As for the interpopulation analysis, similarly to mtDNA, Bulgarians belong to the cluster of European populations, still being slightly distant from them. Bulgarians are distant from Turks (despite geographical proximity), Arabic and Caucasus populations and Indians. These trends in the PCA graph likely reflect not only prehistoric, but also more recent demographic events that have shaped the Y chromosome structure of modern Bulgarians."..." http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/bulgarians.html

The Bulgars were  Indo-Europeans. If they were Turkic, the modern Bulgarians would have Turkic gene markers, which they didn't have.
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Posts: 17084 		  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2012 at 07:53
Brothers Grimm new reedited stories!Have a nice time reading it.Smile
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Posts: 6084 		  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2012 at 05:48
Originally posted by Cryptic

As a side note though, though Bulgarians are linguistically and culturally slavic, I think they are of turkic ethnic origins.  Who knows, maybe they are listed on both turkic and slavic forums.  I have seen Croats listed on an Iranian history forum as an Iranian people. 
I think you mean Bulgars and not Bulgarians, right Cryptic?
Bulgar (also spelled Bolğar, Bulghar) is an extinct language which was spoken by the Bulgars. It was a language belonging to Oghur subgroup of Turkic languages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolgar_language
As for pinning them down further, that's more stiff a task, as they probably slept around a bit. Not such an unusual thing I gather in groups frequenting the Eurasian Steppe in that period in history.
The Croats connection to the Iranian people, in some measure, is through an Alani/Sarmatian connection, but I kind of doubt it being anywhere near to being in the majority.  
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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Posts: 4734 		  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2012 at 02:18
No, the Bulgarians are not from Turkic ethnic origins, this is an old and refured theory. The Old Bulgarians are Indo-European, now whether Iranian or Pamirian is not exactlly clear; but the said old Bulgarians were more or less lost among the Thracians and Slavs, /as numbers, that is, the coming as a tribe people are always less than teh natives/ and not much is left from them per se in the modern Bulgarian culture, nor in the Bulgarian genetics. Bulgarian language is Slavic, for one.The Bulgarian genetic fond shows between 50-70% Medieterranean gene markers, and lack of Turkic such, I'll post sources when I have time.


Edited by Don Quixote - 04-Jul-2012 at 02:25
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2012 at 12:18
Originally posted by hongphan

I am not registered. You help me ....

Help yourself and be damned, spambot
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2012 at 23:25
 
I am of Polish descent as well. 
 
Originally posted by Nick1986

Naturally.Smile Don is Bulgarian and i'm half Polish
 
As a side note though, though Bulgarians are linguistically and culturally slavic, I think they are of turkic ethnic origins.  Who knows, maybe they are listed on both turkic and slavic forums.  I have seen Croats listed on an Iranian history forum as an Iranian people. 


Edited by Cryptic - 10-Jun-2012 at 23:35
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Posts: 3 		  Quote Svemir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2012 at 09:38
So are you guys still having trouble registering?
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2012 at 09:31
Naturally.Smile Don is Bulgarian and i'm half Polish
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Posts: 3 		  Quote Svemir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2012 at 08:40
Btw, are you guys Slavic?
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Posts: 3 		  Quote Svemir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2012 at 08:39
If you're having problems registering I can help.
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Posts: 4734 		  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2012 at 22:22
Yes, the random word, then the coldest season is winter, /but I don't remember with capital letters or not/ for the second question is "one plus five is six" with words. I got all 3 of them in a row. Sometimes the random word code is hard to get, like E looks like F, and stuff like that. I had to repeat several times before it got me in.
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2012 at 20:29
I assumed the coldest season was "winter" and i typed in the random word code as requested but i'm still having problems
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Posts: 4734 		  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2012 at 20:24
Why doesn't let you register? I had a hard time passing through the questions for registering, because it was like "One plus five is what" so I wrote 6, while it had to be "six" - it took me while to figure this out.

Yes, I have that in mindSmile
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