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Western Iranians vs. Eastern Iranians

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  Quote Venkytalks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Western Iranians vs. Eastern Iranians
    Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 15:44
Interesting discussion here.

I myself find the initial post quite interesting because it resonates with a theory I used to like (a couple of decades ago actually). This is my personal belief only.

I used to believe that the original European people evolved from migrations as old as 30,000 plus years ago. And that Indo european languages spread out from Turkey 8000 years ago and was spoken by the European people, some of whom settled in the Khazakhstan and Russian steppes before 3000 BC. They had light hair and eyes (blond and blue eyed ). 

By 1800 BC the Sintashta and Arakaim cultures of Western Steppes were advanced in copper metallurgy, had adopted horse rearing from the Mongols and invented both horse chariots and bow fighting techniques. 

With these advantages they invaded and settled in Mesopotamia and formed the Mitanni and Kassites rulers (and I used to believe even Hykso rule of Egypt and into the Indus valley Civilization of Pakistan) and ruled for 500 years before they declined and were replaced. That they were a minority in these areas and were a ruling class only.

After decline they migrated east to Iran and Punjab where their bretheren lived. And made small settlements. From where they were again disposessed by the Medes from Central Asia - an invasion by another group of different Indo European people (continously pushed out of the steppes by the Mongols). So they went and joined the last of the early proto Indo European people who were in Pakistan.

So the original Mitanni/early Indo Iranians spoke in proto indo European, worshipped Indra and Devas and migrated east. They were light skinned but unlikely to be blond or blue eyed because of local mixing (in mesopotamia and IVC) and came from a well developed ruler class of 500 years standing  (and not pastoral agriculturists from the Steppes). Their priest class were advanced in their hymns and methods of worship. But they had preserved many of their early steppe ways which became more pronounced as they joined their bretheren and regressed to a more pastoral life. As they migrated east, they reached Punjab where they settled with the earlier Rig Vedic people. Further Indo Iranian migrations from more pastoral communities from Central Asia also probably ocurred between 1200 BC to 800 BC into Punjab, some of whom had similar beliefs but others had different beliefs.

And that the Rig Veda Samhita was collected from the compilation of not one but multiple Indo Iranian migrants and derived mostly from the more ancient hymns from periods much before compilation, accounting for the more archaic language.

These I used to believe was (the romantic !) history of the Rig Vedic people. 

In other words, the Aryan migration theory into India with the added bit that the ruling classes of well developed Mitanni Kassite rulers were also among those migrating - explaining the more advanced features seen in the Rig Vedic people than what you would expect from mere steppe tribals. It would also explain their desire to preserve their heritage - like the Parsis who came later.

Although most scholarship of Kassites and Hyksos are against them being even Indo Iranian nowadays (when I was reading earlier, they were considered Indo Iranian), I would still like to imagine that the Rig Veda is mostly the Mitanni hymns mixed with the hymns of those who migrated to Pakistan in the 1800 BC period.


Regardless of whether the above is true or not, I have no doubt about some things.

1. Rig Vedic people are derived from migration of people from the Sintashta/Petrovka/Arkaim cultures - either directly to Punjab in 1800 BC or via Mesopotamia and Iran as described above.

2. History has shown repeatedly that the steppe people of earlier Indo European origin or later mongol origin have dominated the development of Asia from 1800 BC to the modern age. Why exclude the Rig Vedic people from this long list?

3. That they innovated and assimilated but were always energetic - a prerequisite for the people described in the Rig Veda. 

Regarding the Zorashtrian Persians - they themselves later were displaced from Iran and migrated to India and formed the Parsis - who despite their small numbers and minority religion, dominate the cultural and business life of India to this day - preserved their religion and way of life and preserved the Avesta for the British to decipher.

Why not the same with the Rig Veda and Mittanni?




Edited by Venkytalks - 15-Jan-2013 at 15:58
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  Quote EN-SZE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 17:59
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

For example about Haplogroup I (Y-DNA): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)

Bosnia and Herzegovina: 65%
Caucasus: 58%
Croatia: 54%
Sweden: 50%
Serbia: 48%
Norway 40%
Germany: 37.5
Sardinia 37%
Denmark: 39%
Montenegro: 38%
Iran: 34%
Iceland: 33%
West Finland: 41%

I think, except Iran, all other ones are either Germanic or from the eastern Europe. 
I understand that it is most prestigious to call now Germen of h/g carriers - I. But before to become Germen, these Scandinavians needed to come under influence of  AS-gardian TURKIR-MENs with h/g-R1a1 and R1b! I once again want to focus attention of fans of history to that fact that barbarians paleoeuropean, as well as barbarians Afro-Semites, were carriers RELATED haplogroup I and J.Ancient Europeans and ancient hamito-Semite have also the related glossary. I pray to consider and that circumstance what exactly carriers h/g I in Europe suffer lack of enzymes for digestion of cow, sheep and goat milk MORE OFTEN! And h/g carriers I were noticed in a cannibalism in the second century until BC and in the second century before BC! Any woman European would prefer to give birth to the child from gallant Turkic nomads not to have problems in case of lack of chest milk! Such is the primordial reason of shatteringly fast penetration of Turkic man's h/g-s in the territory of Europe.


Edited by EN-SZE - 15-Jan-2013 at 19:27
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  Quote EN-SZE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 18:05
There was no paleoeuropean h/g I on the Arkaim.
There was ONLY Turkic R1a1 and R1b with subclades!
Moreover, sumer to Arkaim came ANNUALLY(!) without arranging long-term dwellings. Sumerian submitted huge spaces from the Mesopotamic cities to Ural in searches and copper production. Exactly so is and in culture of Vinka=vincha in Europe. And there Sumerian found copper and founded the settlements.


Edited by EN-SZE - 15-Jan-2013 at 18:17
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2013 at 11:01
Originally posted by Venkytalks

With these advantages they invaded and settled in Mesopotamia and formed the Mitanni and Kassites rulers (and I used to believe even Hykso rule of Egypt and into the Indus valley Civilization of Pakistan) and ruled for 500 years before they declined and were replaced. That they were a minority in these areas and were a ruling class only.
 
Mitanni culture was a good mention, of course they were a Hurrian people but they were certainly under influence of a strong Indo-Iranian culture, it can compared to the spread of Mithraism throughout the Roman Empire.
 
As I said in my second post in this thread, peoples who lived in the Iranian plateau before the first millennium BC were NOT Iranian, but some of them could be Indo-European, the interesting thing about the Mitanni culture is that it was more influenced by Indian culture than Iranian culture.
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  Quote EN-SZE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2013 at 16:12
E1b1b1-M35	2	3.3%
E1b1b1c1-M34	1	1.6%
F*-M89		1	1.6%
F3-P96		1	1.6%
G-M201		5	8.2%
G1*-M342	1	1.6%
G1a-P20		1	1.6%
G2a-P15		1	1.6%
G2a4-L91	1	1.6%
G2a3b1-P303	1	1.6%
H-M69		1	1.6%
J1-M267		6	9.8%
J1c3d-L147	2	3.3%
J2-M172		12	19.7%
J2a4a-M322	1	1.6%
J2a4b-S51	2	3.3%
J2a4d-M319	1	1.6%
J2a4h2-M158	5	8.2%
Q*-M242		1	1.6%
R1a1a1-M417	5	8.2%
R1b1a2-M269	1	1.6%
R1b1a2a-L23	1	1.6%
R2*-M479	1	1.6%
R2a-M124	4	6.6%
T1-M320		3	4.9%



I combined percent of all haplogroup according to your table and at me it turned out - 99,5 %. It turns out that on h/g I there are only 0,5 %. But above you specified at Iranians of 34 % of h/g I. Explain, please, why such different interpretation?

Edited by EN-SZE - 16-Jan-2013 at 16:17
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  Quote EN-SZE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2013 at 17:14
I, apparently, start to understand: The western Iranians are presented at you on the table as far as I understood your subject.
 Perfectly!
 Answer me, please, only with deep arguments whom you understand as "east Iranians"?
 Whether 2,5 million Turkmen enter into number of "east Iranians"?
 Whether Hazeragu's 1,5 million which were crushed by Kazakhs in the 18th century and in the 18th century migrating on the territory of Iran enter into number of "east Iranians"?
 Whether enter into number "east Iranians" pushtuns,   Uzbeks, living in east Iran?
 Whether inhabitants of the province the Farce enter into number of "east Iranians"?
 Whether inhabitants of southeast Iran enter into number of "east Iranians"?
 
If all these ethnoses aren't included by you in number of "east Iranians", in what lonely small village you carried out the DNA project where received 34 % of h/g I???


Edited by EN-SZE - 16-Jan-2013 at 17:16
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  Quote Venkytalks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2013 at 02:16
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Venkytalks

With these advantages they invaded and settled in Mesopotamia and formed the Mitanni and Kassites rulers (and I used to believe even Hykso rule of Egypt and into the Indus valley Civilization of Pakistan) and ruled for 500 years before they declined and were replaced. That they were a minority in these areas and were a ruling class only.
 
Mitanni culture was a good mention, of course they were a Hurrian people but they were certainly under influence of a strong Indo-Iranian culture, it can compared to the spread of Mithraism throughout the Roman Empire.
 
As I said in my second post in this thread, peoples who lived in the Iranian plateau before the first millennium BC were NOT Iranian, but some of them could be Indo-European, the interesting thing about the Mitanni culture is that it was more influenced by Indian culture than Iranian culture.

Although Hurrian, the ruling elite were Indo Aryan. 

The Roman Mithraism is supposed to be derived from the Indo Aryan Mitra as well as the Persian Mithra but happened much later in history around 2nd century BC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitra
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2013 at 04:11
Originally posted by EN-SZE

I, apparently, start to understand: The western Iranians are presented at you on the table as far as I understood your subject.
 Perfectly!
 Answer me, please, only with deep arguments whom you understand as "east Iranians"?
 Whether 2,5 million Turkmen enter into number of "east Iranians"?
 Whether Hazeragu's 1,5 million which were crushed by Kazakhs in the 18th century and in the 18th century migrating on the territory of Iran enter into number of "east Iranians"?
 Whether enter into number "east Iranians" pushtuns,   Uzbeks, living in east Iran?
 Whether inhabitants of the province the Farce enter into number of "east Iranians"?
 Whether inhabitants of southeast Iran enter into number of "east Iranians"?
 
If all these ethnoses aren't included by you in number of "east Iranians", in what lonely small village you carried out the DNA project where received 34 % of h/g I???
 
As I said in the first post, by "east Iranians" I mean ancient Indo-Iranian people who lived in the east of the Caspian sea, namely Central Asia, of course in the last 3,000 years many things have been changed in this region and the eastern Iran.
 
About Haplogroup I, according to this wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA), 34% is just about Tehran, capital of Iran, but in Isfahan in the Central Iran, it is just 10%.
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  Quote EN-SZE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2013 at 05:30
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by EN-SZE

I, apparently, start to understand: The western Iranians are presented at you on the table as far as I understood your subject.
 Perfectly!
 Answer me, please, only with deep arguments whom you understand as "east Iranians"?
 Whether 2,5 million Turkmen enter into number of "east Iranians"?
 Whether Hazeragu's 1,5 million which were crushed by Kazakhs in the 18th century and in the 18th century migrating on the territory of Iran enter into number of "east Iranians"?
 Whether enter into number "east Iranians" pushtuns,   Uzbeks, living in east Iran?
 Whether inhabitants of the province the Farce enter into number of "east Iranians"?
 Whether inhabitants of southeast Iran enter into number of "east Iranians"?
 
If all these ethnoses aren't included by you in number of "east Iranians", in what lonely small village you carried out the DNA project where received 34 % of h/g I???
 
As I said in the first post, by "east Iranians" I mean ancient Indo-Iranian people who lived in the east of the Caspian sea, namely Central Asia, of course in the last 3,000 years many things have been changed in this region and the eastern Iran.
 
About Haplogroup I, according to this wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA), 34% is just about Tehran, capital of Iran, but in Isfahan in the Central Iran, it is just 10%.
But, madam, I know beyond doubt that more than a half of inhabitants of Tehran are ethnic Turkic peoples. However, and all governors in the ancient time, except Sasanids, too were Turkic peoples. I consider that article in Wikipedia is a usual POLITICAL LIE. In Tehran there can not be 34 % of inhabitants with h/g I in any way. According to historical chronicles absolutely precisely it is known that the Swedish tribe RUSь sold slaves  and finno-ugrishs to Mesopotamia and in Transcaucasia. It was continuous within 4 centuries process of delivery of slaves carriers to h/g I. These slaves couldn't disappear in a flash))))
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2013 at 07:27
Originally posted by EN-SZE

But, madam, I know beyond doubt that more than a half of inhabitants of Tehran are ethnic Turkic peoples. However, and all governors in the ancient time, except Sasanids, too were Turkic peoples. I consider that article in Wikipedia is a usual POLITICAL LIE. In Tehran there can not be 34 % of inhabitants with h/g I in any way. According to historical chronicles absolutely precisely it is known that the Swedish tribe RUSь sold slaves  and finno-ugrishs to Mesopotamia and in Transcaucasia. It was continuous within 4 centuries process of delivery of slaves carriers to h/g I. These slaves couldn't disappear in a flash))))
 
(madam?!!) Please keep away from exaggeration, I myself live in Tehran, of course there are a large number of Azeri people here but everyone knows that, like the people of Turkey, they are not ethnically Turkic people, anyway it can't be denied that some groups of Turkic peoples have migrated to Iran especially in the last thousand years, and before them Arabs, for this reason we should say the modern people of Iran are a mixture of Turkic, Semitic, Indo-European and aboriginal people.
 
I had talked about Vikings and the Rus in the south of Caspian sea in the 10th and 11th century, but it was just for trade or plunder, they didn't occupy any land, and I really doubt that some slaves who were sold during this period could have a large impact on the racial diversity of Iran!!
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  Quote EN-SZE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2013 at 08:00
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

 
(madam?!!) Please keep away from exaggeration, I myself live in Tehran, of course there are a large number of Azeri people here but everyone knows that, like the people of Turkey, they are not ethnically Turkic people, anyway it can't be denied that some groups of Turkic peoples have migrated to Iran especially in the last thousand years, and before them Arabs, for this reason we should say the modern people of Iran are a mixture of Turkic, Semitic, Indo-European and aboriginal people.
 
I had talked about Vikings and the Rus in the south of Caspian sea in the 10th and 11th century, but it was just for trade or plunder, they didn't occupy any land, and I really doubt that some slaves who were sold during this period could have a large impact on the racial diversity of Iran!!
I apologize you: I thought that you are the woman. According to your answer: The considerable part of everything SETLEMENT the population of Mesopotamia is descendants SUMERIAN WOMEN, with sumerian = Turkic language! After migration of a considerable part Sumerian in the territory of Europe, Black Sea Coast, North Kaspy, the Volga region, the Carpathians, on the territory of Siberia and the Far East, in Mesopotamia there was  part of sumer, women, children, old men, priests of temples, priests castes etc. Modern Turks are  akkadization Sumerian which women kept sumerian language. Certainly, akkadian language influenced Turkish language, but insignificant. Just the same AZERBAIJANI language! It is Sumerian language of Mothers of sumer, in ancient time won by Semite akkadians. Therefore at Azerbaijanians a significant amount of h/g J at men is combined with Turk=sumerian language of their mothers.) )) When I wrote about Turkic peoples of Tehran I meant not only Azerbaijanians! I meant Torkomans and Kashkais! It still thus that I didn't consider the Iranian Turkic peoples, living much thousands years on coast of the Tiger! 
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  Quote EN-SZE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2013 at 08:33
All Turkic peoples to the Flood named themselves AS. 7000-6000 years ago Sumerian in Mesopotamia received the First Scriptus and the guide to action, about which Allah Supreme remembered us in Sacred Koran! Those Sumerian which executed the Message of the Allah began to be called ТURG=ТURК = "Establishing". What established Turk=Turg? Established the Right and the Power vertical. Precisely according to representations Sumerian about a space order in Solar system and in the Universe! Priests - SHANGU and their APOSTOLs (=12) executed the Order Supreme on Establishment of ITS Order! This part of ancient Turkic peoples began to name itself TURK!One part of them went to East and founded Chenees Impair.Second part went to Scandinavia.Other part went to Europe and Great Britane,  one part went to Egipt and Afrika, at last  one part went to the territory of modern Afganistan near Kandagar city.Unlike other Turkic peoples, continuing to call the AS. Get accustomed more attentively: ASIA=AZIA =AS+iA= "Possession of AS"!!! in the Tatar language.

Edited by EN-SZE - 17-Jan-2013 at 09:08
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  Quote EN-SZE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2013 at 10:19
 Vikings of a tribe of RUS had no state on the Caspian Sea or on the Black Sea. Robbers of RUS undertook 2 campaigns to the Caspian Sea but before getting to the Caspian Sea these Vikings ASKED to allow to float them across Volga from Noiegard-Ladoga. From someone they asked? Vikings asked permission the tsar of the Volga Bulgarians. During the first campaign to the Caspian Sea Vikings had 5000-7000 soldiers on 150-200 river crafts. After plunder of the coastal people these Vikings were possible manage through protecting armies Volga Blgar, and their most part left on the northwest, on  their territory. In the second extortionate campaign Vikings of RUS brought together about 50 000 robbers by uncountable boats. Bulgarians Volga again passed this time Vikings down across Volga, however this time collected significant forces to DESTROY, at last, these barbarians. After a robbery of the near-Caspian peoples these 50 000 robbers during return were attacked by Blgarian and were destroyed by Blgarian.

Edited by EN-SZE - 17-Jan-2013 at 11:00
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  Quote EN-SZE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2013 at 10:58
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

 
(madam?!!) Please keep away from exaggeration, I myself live in Tehran, of course there are a large number of Azeri people here but everyone knows that, like the people of Turkey, they are not ethnically Turkic people, anyway it can't be denied that some groups of Turkic peoples have migrated to Iran especially in the last thousand years, and before them Arabs, for this reason we should say the modern people of Iran are a mixture of Turkic, Semitic, Indo-European and aboriginal people.
 
I had talked about Vikings and the Rus in the south of Caspian sea in the 10th and 11th century, but it was just for trade or plunder, they didn't occupy any land, and I really doubt that some slaves who were sold during this period could have a large impact on the racial diversity of Iran!!
Imagine a situation when 50 000 barbarians Vikings,  carriers h/g I, force in EACH city and the village of all women of genital age: All virgins, married women and absolutely little girls! Presented? Hypothetically it is 50 000 children in EACH large city of Mesopotamia, by the way! Here from where inhabitants of Iran have this paleoeuropean h/g I!!!


Edited by EN-SZE - 17-Jan-2013 at 11:14
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2013 at 11:47
Originally posted by EN-SZE

 Vikings of a tribe of RUS had no state on the Caspian Sea or on the Black Sea. Robbers of RUS undertook 2 campaigns to the Caspian Sea but before getting to the Caspian Sea these Vikings ASKED to allow to float them across Volga from Noiegard-Ladoga. From someone they asked? Vikings asked permission the tsar of the Volga Bulgarians. During the first campaign to the Caspian Sea Vikings had 5000-7000 soldiers on 150-200 river crafts. After plunder of the coastal people these Vikings were possible manage through protecting armies Volga Blgar, and their most part left on the northwest, on  their territory. In the second extortionate campaign Vikings of RUS brought together about 50 000 robbers by uncountable boats. Bulgarians Volga again passed this time Vikings down across Volga, however this time collected significant forces to DESTROY, at last, these barbarians. After a robbery of the near-Caspian peoples these 50 000 robbers during return were attacked by Blgarian and were destroyed by Blgarian.
I think you forget Sviatoslav I, EN- SZE. Hardly a force which simply smashed and grab, and made a quick departure.
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  Quote EN-SZE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2013 at 11:58
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

I think you forget Sviatoslav I, EN- SZE. Hardly a force which simply smashed and grab, and made a quick departure.
I forgot nothing and perfectly I remember about an unexpected extortionate campaign of Vikings under Svyatoslav's leadership. But you forgot that active armed forces pursued an army of Vikings and crushed them absolutely, and Svyatoslav was compelled to hide for Danube Blgariya's territories. By the way, this shameful flight  didn't rescue of him. It found and Turkic solders decapitated him.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2013 at 12:25
Originally posted by EN-SZE

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

I think you forget Sviatoslav I, EN- SZE. Hardly a force which simply smashed and grab, and made a quick departure.
I forgot nothing and perfectly I remember about an unexpected extortionate campaign of Vikings under Svyatoslav's leadership. But you forgot that active armed forces pursued an army of Vikings and crushed them absolutely, and Svyatoslav was compelled to hide for Danube Blgariya's territories. By the way, this shameful flight  didn't rescue of him. It found and Turkic solders decapitated him.
I forgot nothing here, EN-SZE, this was a time of war, so of course there would be active armed forces after him. Your point of contention was that there was no lands held, but as the map shows below, these were the lands held by Sviatoslav I. further more, after Sviatoslav I's death, Vladimir, one of his sons, raised a force of Varangians, along with Yaropolk, and returned to regain the territory. As for the decapitation, EN-SZE, as you might know, in nomadic/ semi-nomadic circle decapitation was the norm, and a way of infusing the power of a great foe.

The Kievan Rus during the reign of Sviatoslav I of Kiev. Red outline shows Rus territory at Sviatoslav's coronation in c. 962; orange denotes his conquests 962-972. Byzantine territory in purple; probable sites of Khazar successor states in blue.


Edited by TheAlaniDragonRising - 17-Jan-2013 at 12:27
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  Quote EN-SZE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2013 at 13:42
You or badly know sources, or you move political goals. Don't mislead readers the drawn card, by the way, which absolutely SENSELESS and is an ordinary forgery. Svyatoslav appointed the ruling prince from among the confidants in a small town in the south of the peninsula of Taman, but this governor was right there killed by citizens, at approach of active armed forces of Turkic peoples. If you understood the Tatar language, for certain, you would understand that the name TMUTARCAN it not the Scandinavian word and not a Slavic word. This word means "the Leader 10 000".This principality of Turkian existed LONG BEFORE extortionate attack of the Swedish army, and existed long after that.)))
Notice: TAM+an=TAMAN peninsula and T(a)MUTARCAN=T(a)Mu Tarcan.And now read on Turkic  dictionerys what mean this two words)))  


Edited by EN-SZE - 17-Jan-2013 at 13:43
In search of Truth we are limited to knowledge tools and consequently our idea of Truth includes also a certain mistake.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2013 at 14:56
Originally posted by EN-SZE

You or badly know sources, or you move political goals. Don't mislead readers the drawn card, by the way, which absolutely SENSELESS and is an ordinary forgery. Svyatoslav appointed the ruling prince from among the confidants in a small town in the south of the peninsula of Taman, but this governor was right there killed by citizens, at approach of active armed forces of Turkic peoples. If you understood the Tatar language, for certain, you would understand that the name TMUTARCAN it not the Scandinavian word and not a Slavic word. This word means "the Leader 10 000".This principality of Turkian existed LONG BEFORE extortionate attack of the Swedish army, and existed long after that.)))
Notice: TAM+an=TAMAN peninsula and T(a)MUTARCAN=T(a)Mu Tarcan.And now read on Turkic  dictionerys what mean this two words)))  
Me moving the goal posts/misleading, EN-SZE? I was under the impression that someone had suggested that the Rus had not held any land for any time. I didn't want anyone to get the wrong impression of the situation. I'm sure you would prefer there should be more clarity.
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  Quote EN-SZE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2013 at 16:33
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Me moving the goal posts/misleading, EN-SZE? I was under the impression that someone had suggested that the Rus had not held any land for any time. I didn't want anyone to get the wrong impression of the situation. I'm sure you would prefer there should be more clarity.
You use the forged sources and consequently fall into a trap lie which was prepared for you by political falsifiers. The chronicle "A word about a regiment (prince) of Igor", dated the 11th century AD is written in language which consists for 60 % of the Tatar glossary. Prince Igor - the Kiev's prince. Events which are considered by you in the previous messages belong to the 10th century. In 100-120 years after "Svyatoslav's" (???)campaign inhabitants of Kiev still spoke in the native language, on Turkic. Don't exaggerate a role of the Swedish prince and a role of their EPHEMERAL state - Rus,  which NEVER HAS BEEN. Read serious sources, for example, Volga Blgariya's chronicle which is called "Dzhagfar Tarikhe".There is writen REAL=TATAR names of "Russian" princes and and their Tatar title КАGAN are written.
All faike "history" of EPHEMERAL Rus was written by monks in the  Catherine II's secret printing house in the 18th century.


Edited by EN-SZE - 17-Jan-2013 at 16:52
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