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Western Iranians vs. Eastern Iranians

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Western Iranians vs. Eastern Iranians
    Posted: 28-Jan-2012 at 09:50
I bleieve in the west and the east of the Caspian sea two different Iranian cultures were formed, the western one can be called Irano-Germanic and the eastern one as Indo-Iranian.
 
It is very possible that these two fought against each other in the Iranian plateau and the winner was the western one and afterwards the western culture could dominate the other.
 
The main god of Indo-Iranians was Deva: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deva_(Hinduism)
 
The Sanskrit deva- derives from Indo-Iranian *dev- which in turn descends from the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) word, *deiwos, originally an adjective meaning "celestial" or "shining", which is a PIE (not synchronic Sanskrit) vrddhi derivative from the root *diw meaning "to shine", especially as the day-lit sky. The feminine form of PIE *deiwos is PIE *deiwih2, which descends into Indic languages as devi, in that context meaning "female deity".

Also deriving from PIE *deiwos, and thus cognates of deva, are Lithuanian Dievas (Latvian Dievs, Prussian Deiwas), Germanic Tiwaz (seen in English "Tuesday") and the related Old Norse Tivar (gods), and Latin deus "god" and divus "divine", from which the English words "divine", "deity", French "dieu", Portuguese "deus", Spanish "dios" and Italian "dio", also "Zeys/Ζεύς" - "Dias/Δίας", the Greek father of the gods, are derived.

It is interesting that however ancient Persian kings usually respected the followers of other religions but they couldn't tolerate those who worshipped the Devas, for example Xerxes in one his inscription in Persepolis says: There was a country where Devas were still worshipped. Afterwards, by the favor of Ahuramazda, I destroyed that sanctuary of the Devas, and I made proclamation, "The Devas shall not be worshipped!"
 
Dev or Div in modern Persian means "demon", the important point is that this word never means "shining" in Persian, in fact it is not possible that a word with this meaning is used for demon, similar to Germanic, the Middle Persian word for "shining" was "Tewa", in Modern Persian that is "Tavan/Taban": http://www.wikiled.com/persian-english-t_00e2b_00e2n-Default.aspx
 
As you read in this book: A history of Zoroastrianism: The Early Period By Mary Boyce, Frantz Grenet (page 77), the chief god of western Iranians was Tir/Tyr, as you read here: http://rbedrosian.com/ananik2b.htm it was certainly related to Armenian god Tiur, the founder of Parthian empire and some other Parthian and then Armenian kings were Tiridates which means "Given by God (Tir)".
 
 
Týr ( /ˈtɪər/;[1] Old Norse: Týr [tyːr]) is the god of single combat, victory and heroic glory in Norse mythology, portrayed as a one-handed man. Corresponding names in other Germanic languages are Gothic Teiws, Old English Tīw and Old High German Ziu, all from Proto-Germanic *Tîwaz (*Tē₂waz).


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 28-Jan-2012 at 11:47
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2012 at 10:39
If winner was Western Iranian culture how could be found Western Iranians traces all around Europe?There was Big people's migration from Hindu plateau somewhere between 350B.C. and 30B.C.Those people had created Empires further known as Roman,West and East,with residuals of structures they had populated:Ruling Elites!This part in history always have made me troubles and I believe this is one very possible story about this Exodus!New comers had created New Histories for natives also enslaved them,in which all natives have to be out comers and they natives!Next DNA  comparative research have to prove it.If forgery will not continue further!Best lie is Good lie!1000 times had spoken lie became a truth.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2012 at 12:18
The earliest civilizations were formed in a region in the west of Iran which is called Mesopotamia, this civilized region attracted people from all around the world, especially from Europe, one of these people where Iranians who came from the Eastern Europe and the Central Asia.
 
Before Iranians we know several non-Iranian peoples such as Elamites, Kassites, Mannaeans, Lullubis, Gutians, Urartians, ... lived in the Iranian plateau, of course some of them could be Indo-European, the earliest known Iranian people were Medes who probably migrated to the western Iran through the Caucaus in the first millennium BC.
 
After Medes, Scythians and Cimmerians also came from the same region and then Persians who first lived in the northwest of Media and finally in the south of Media in a region which is called Persia.
 
Anyway the path of migration was from the north to the south, not vice versa.
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2012 at 12:48
Those are just names Cyrus.I agree about all you have read cause i know i read it also.Where is Hindu from Indo-European in our languages?Few words in mine.But there are Hindu people all around me that have denied always our right to be natives.They had absorbed our language&past during existed two last great Roman Empires and rest that followed them.If there were big migration in last 2000 years they had come from this direction.I am sorry about thinking different about it even i am so far from there!Take it as one of possibilities about human history screenplays!I have seen lot of churches icons and lot of ancient mosaics&pictures analyzing features of faces comparing them!In Roman Art not so much but in Byzantine,features of saints&people had had more "Hindu" elements than European.

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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2012 at 19:39
Like I mentioned in a previous thread the Automosal DNA of Iranians points to Central Asia before Iran.  Kurds and Iranians both show a gentic pull towards Central Asia that is not present in other populations in west asia.   Kurds and Iranians do not show any unusual genetic tie to Eastern Europe at all.  But Indo-Iranians in all show a high genetic pull towards the Northern Caucasus, which points to the southern pontic stepps as the home of Indo-iranians before Central Asia.   




Edited by Ince - 28-Jan-2012 at 19:42
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 02:37
For example about Haplogroup I (Y-DNA): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)

Bosnia and Herzegovina: 65%
Caucasus: 58%
Croatia: 54%
Sweden: 50%
Serbia: 48%
Norway 40%
Germany: 37.5
Sardinia 37%
Denmark: 39%
Montenegro: 38%
Iran: 34%
Iceland: 33%
West Finland: 41%

I think, except Iran, all other ones are either Germanic or from the eastern Europe. 
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 02:44
Than we are relatives.Question is:Did this map always look this way or someone move figures on chess table?
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 08:28
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

For example about Haplogroup I (Y-DNA): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)

Bosnia and Herzegovina: 65%
Caucasus: 58%
Croatia: 54%
Sweden: 50%
Serbia: 48%
Norway 40%
Germany: 37.5
Sardinia 37%
Denmark: 39%
Montenegro: 38%
Iran: 34%
Iceland: 33%
West Finland: 41%

I think, except Iran, all other ones are either Germanic or from the eastern Europe.


You are looking at outdated study that only looked at Tehran the realistic number is less then 10%.   Also most all the "I" Y-dna found in west asia is I2a and it's mostly found among Kurds of Anatolia.   Most likely those tested in Tehran had anceint mixture from Anatolia.



Here is the Y-dna of Iranians on FTDNA project, not a single "I" so far

Iranian Y-dna results on FTDNA

E1b1b1-M35	2	3.3%
E1b1b1c1-M34	1	1.6%
F*-M89		1	1.6%
F3-P96		1	1.6%
G-M201		5	8.2%
G1*-M342	1	1.6%
G1a-P20		1	1.6%
G2a-P15		1	1.6%
G2a4-L91	1	1.6%
G2a3b1-P303	1	1.6%
H-M69		1	1.6%
J1-M267		6	9.8%
J1c3d-L147	2	3.3%
J2-M172		12	19.7%
J2a4a-M322	1	1.6%
J2a4b-S51	2	3.3%
J2a4d-M319	1	1.6%
J2a4h2-M158	5	8.2%
Q*-M242		1	1.6%
R1a1a1-M417	5	8.2%
R1b1a2-M269	1	1.6%
R1b1a2a-L23	1	1.6%
R2*-M479	1	1.6%
R2a-M124	4	6.6%
T1-M320		3	4.9%


From Eupedia  http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

I        3
R1a
  16.5
R1b
   6.5
G
       10
J2
      12
J1
      10
E
        4.5
T
        3
L
        4
Q
       4
 N       2.5


I1 the mostly found in Europe
Distribution of haplogroup I1 in Europe


I2a mostly found in south eastern europe.

Distribution of haplogroup I2a1 (formerly I2a) in Europe



Even tho Kurds have some I2a but based on Automosal DNA they have do not show any genetic tie to Eastern Europe and I2a is mostly very ancient and probaly was present before the age of the indo-europeans and other speakers.  



Edited by Ince - 29-Jan-2012 at 08:32
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 11:08
Ince, please mention valid sources on real analysis, not probabilities and guesses, this is the source about Haplogroup I in Iran: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1529-8817.2004.00092.x/pdf
 
As I found about FTDNA project, it seems not even a single person in Iran has been analysed and it is just based on some people from UAE and other countries who claim to have direct ancestors from Iran.
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 16:03
I gave eupedia links. You can check their sources.    Please go reasearch haplogroup I and you will see that most of I in west asia is I2a and is mostly found in anatolia.   

Do a google search for "FTDNA project iranians forumbiodiversty" you can see the posts.

I am on my phone so cannot get to much in to providing links at the momet.

Pleasee search Google for the dodecad project to see Automosal DNA reasearch.

Edited by Ince - 30-Jan-2012 at 09:38
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 19:33
Dodecad project results, based on Automosal DNA there is a clear genetic tie towards central asia.

Check out
Iranians_D (Dodecad paricipants, from all around iran)
Iranians_Behar (Iranians from south iran, mostly maybe from around khuzestan)

Kurds_D (Dodecad paricipants indludes,Sorani,Kurmanji,Feyli Kurds)
Kurds_Y (Kurmanji Kurds, originaly from Urmia)


Dodecad V3

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=COCa89AJ&key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyNnc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

K12a

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedGdRbkxKMDdlZkJWc21tdkpldWxwVmc#gid=0

World9

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadGlpc3JQaVdQbS1QTWF3SzNjTVdfZEE#gid=0








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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 20:13

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note* That the south asian among Kurds and Iranians is mostly ancient Central  Asian  component which is mislabeled as south asian, this because Dodecad and Mcdonald combine 2 compenents known as ASI(Ancestral South Asians) and ANI(Ancestral North Indians).  ANI is mostly found in central asia and North India where as ASI is mostly found in south indians and found in some amounts in Afghanistan and Pakistan, but much lesser among Iranians and Kurds as Kurds and Iranians carry mostly ANI.  

ASI clusters

Posted Image

ANI

Posted Image
Posted Image

ANI is most similar to the West Asian component where as ASI is similar to South East Asia.



Edited by Ince - 31-Jan-2012 at 08:21
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 01:38
This is Y-Chromosome Haplogroup maps of West Asia: http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/
 
As you see Iran is a very diverse country and it is not really possible to say something about the whole people of Iran, there were some migrations from different directions to Iran, for example "Map of Haplogroup E" shows a migration from the southwest Asia (probably Arabia), Haplogroup G seems to be very Iranian, "Map of Haplogroup I" certainly shows a migration from the Europe and Haplogroup R seems to be related to Indo-Iranians.
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 05:33
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

This is Y-Chromosome Haplogroup maps of West Asia: http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/
 
As you see Iran is a very diverse country and it is not really possible to say something about the whole people of Iran, there were some migrations from different directions to Iran, for example "Map of Haplogroup E" shows a migration from the southwest Asia (probably Arabia), Haplogroup G seems to be very Iranian, "Map of Haplogroup I" certainly shows a migration from the Europe and Haplogroup R seems to be related to Indo-Iranians.


Based on Automosal DNA of Iranians and Kurds there is a genetic pull towards Central Asia.  I believe the homeland of Iranians before Iran was around Turkmenistan(Andronovo/BMAC).    Y-dna does not say much as they are very old and do not reveale the sublcade.  For example most the Y-dna "I" in west asia is I2a and is a native marker.   Kurds/Iranians have a large chunk of native DNA from the ancient pre-iranian people, I would say 30-40% of the ancestry is probably from the original iranains settlements with the rest been native.

There seems to be close genetic bond between Kurds and Iranians, they always cluster near eachother on plots and have similar numbers.

If you look at the Dodecad results for the whole of the Indo-Iranian people, like for example the Kalash they show a clear genetic pull towards the Caucasus.  The Kalash are mostly West Asian with some South Asian/Gedrosia (Mostly ANI) with a little ASI due to geographical location.

East Iranians like the Pathan have high amounts of South Asian ASI that is low among west iranians, this can be explained with them moving south from central asia and mixing with locals.

I would say that the Ancient Iranians from Central Asia were largely a mix of  West Asia and ANI/Gedrosia with some North European.   It is likely the Proto Indo-Iranians were different and language replacement could of happened but it could be that they were similar to Northern Caucasians in genetics which expalians why they get pulled towards caucasians. 

Tajiks and Turkmens(Turkmenistan) seem to be similar to Iranians only main difference is they have high amounts of Asian DNA(Siberian,East Asian) due to the Turko-Mongol invasion.




Edited by Ince - 30-Jan-2012 at 05:53
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 07:22

If you look at those Haplogroup maps that I posted in my previous post then you will see that there is nothing which can show a relation between Iranians and Central Asians, the fact is that Iranians generally look like other people of the Middle East, like Arabs, but with some more European features.

For example in another thread, I talked about light eyes:  http://pages.globetrotter.net/peter_frost61z/Eye-color.jpg
 
 
As you see about 20-49 percent of people who live in the the Iranian plateau have light eyes, it can be just related to people who live in the eastern and northern Europe, not Central Asians.
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 07:39
Yes Cyrus but were they Egyptians or Persians once?Have you ever asked yourself about it?This question has nothing with your personal beliefs but has with truth!SmileWe share same syllables Cyrus.Arabs and Jews also.I suppose many other "nations" today also.Question is:What did really happen in ancient times with Europe &Africa 2000-2500 years ago?Without aliens of course.


Edited by medenaywe - 30-Jan-2012 at 09:36
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 07:46
Most of the Haplogroups found among Iranians is found in Central Asia R1a1a,R1b,J2,G.  Automosal DNA is far more accurate then Haplogroups and it clearly shows a genetic pull towards Central Asia.  

Light eyes are also very common among other indo-iranian speakers like North Indians,the Kalash and is also common among North Caucasians as well.   I would  not take a map like that as indication of connection to Europe.

Majority of Iranians look like Anatolians and Caucasians with some leaning towards Arabs and some in the south and east looking indic.    Iranains are largely similar to Caucasians and Anatolians this is becasue the iranians who settled in Iran were already a Caucasian like population. 

For example on 23andme's population placement map.  People like Assyrians and Arabs are in the Near East cluster.  Armenians,Georgians and Turks are in south west european cluster and cluster in the south european group.   Where as Kurds and Iranians appear in the same spot as I did, in between the 3 groups and a genetic pull towards Central Asia that is not present in other west asian people.  The only other people who get pulled towards Central Asia are a few Turkish people this because of there high Asian score of above 5%-10% that pulls them East.
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 07:56
Also the current best theory regarding the origins of Indo-Europeans is the Pontic Stepps.  Like I had mentioned I believe the southern pontic stepps as the home of Iranians before Central Asia>Iran. 

Also many do not want accept that the pro-to Indo-Europeans could of had a large chunk of west asian DNA and were not entirely European like and explains why there is West Asian component among Europeans.  Even on the  K12a run their is even Gedrosia component found around Europe.

K12a , Gedrosia and Caucasian can be found in Europeans

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedGdRbkxKMDdlZkJWc21tdkpldWxwVmc#gid=0

World9, Caucasian_Gedrosia is found around 10%-13% in western Europe.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadGlpc3JQaVdQbS1QTWF3SzNjTVdfZEE#gid=0


Edited by Ince - 30-Jan-2012 at 08:03
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 08:31
Originally posted by medenaywe

Yes Cyrus but were they Egyptians or Persians once?Have you ever asked yourself about it?This question has no intention with your personal beliefs but truth!SmileWe share same syllables Cyrus.Arabs and Jews also.
I suppose many other "nations" today also.Question is:What did really happen in ancient times with Europe
&Africa 2000-2500 years ago?Without aliens of course.
 
About 2500 years ago Persians conquered Egypt, we know a group of them resided there and there are some ancient Persian monuments in Egypt, so there could be some relations between these two people.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 09:10
Originally posted by Ince

Most of the Haplogroups found among Iranians is found in Central Asia R1a1a,R1b,J2,G.  Automosal DNA is far more accurate then Haplogroups and it clearly shows a genetic pull towards Central Asia.  

Light eyes are also very common among other indo-iranian speakers like North Indians,the Kalash and is also common among North Caucasians as well.   I would  not take a map like that as indication of connection to Europe.

Majority of Iranians look like Anatolians and Caucasians with some leaning towards Arabs and some in the south and east looking indic.    Iranains are largely similar to Caucasians and Anatolians this is becasue the iranians who settled in Iran were already a Caucasian like population. 

For example on 23andme's population placement map.  People like Assyrians and Arabs are in the Near East cluster.  Armenians,Georgians and Turks are in south west european cluster and cluster in the south european group.   Where as Kurds and Iranians appear in the same spot as I did, in between the 3 groups and a genetic pull towards Central Asia that is not present in other west asian people.  The only other people who get pulled towards Central Asia are a few Turkish people this because of there high Asian score of above 5%-10% that pulls them East.
 
The number of migrations from Iran to the Central Asia was certasinly more than the reverse path, one of the main reasons is that Afghans and Tajiks already speak a modern Persian language.
 
Anyway Haplogroup R (R1a1a-M17, R1b-M343 & R2-M124) that you mentioned shows Eastern Iranians or Indo-Iranians that I talked about them in my first post in this thread, this is the map:
 
 
As you see they can be seen just in some parts of eastern Iran, according to R1b their original land could be somewhere around Central Asia, especially modern Turkmenistan, and then north India an Pakistan but Haplogroup G that you mentioned seems to be very Persian and can be found just in the land of Tats (Caucasian Persians), Persia, Khorasan, northern Afghanistan and Tajikistan. In fact in the regions where Persian-speaking people live.
 
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