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Islamists dominate Egypt

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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Islamists dominate Egypt
    Posted: 21-Feb-2012 at 19:24
Your claim Eurokiller is so vain and full of fallacies. You claim that the Ottomans and Muslims in general never forcefully converted anyone and your proof is that there are Christian minorities that survive. Now I don't disagree that Islam did bring a protectiive Dhimmi status to the conquered natives but the mere act of conquering can be labelled as forceful conversion. Why? Because history has proven over and over that culture and religion spread faster through conquest than using other methods. Don't also forget that the introduction of a minority with a different religion would easily cause tension to the dominated and not the dominator. It's about culture in the end...

Either way, I don't really see the point of arguing with someone who shows the colours of deep bias and fanaticism for one's held opinion. Whether you like it or not, imperialism has existed with all religions because the faith is just a flavour that gets added to the greed of men which is found wherever one goes!
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  Quote eurokiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2012 at 22:40
Land is conquered genius

Why don't the Mongols get accused of forced conversion then? They had the largest land empire in history.

I was pissed when I wrote that, but that post you wrote there is complete nonsense. Conquest can lead to forced conversions but there has to actually be, you know, coercion involved. This is an oft repeated vain argument, especially when euro christians make it.

Here is a real account of forced conversion


In 1560, the Spanish rulers of Peru sentenced Lope de la Pena, described as a "Moor from Guadalajara", to life imprisonment for the crime of "having practiced and spread Islam" in Cuzco and was also required to wear the Sanbenito around his neck for his entire imprisonment.[5][6][7] Other sources give his name as Alvaro Gonzalez.[8]
His colleague, the mulatto "son of a Spaniard [Juan Solano] and a black woman",[9][10][11] Luis Solano was similarly convicted of spreading Islam, but was executed for the offence.[12][13]
As persecution increased in the Spanish dependencies, Muslims ceased identifying themselves by their religion and became nominal Christians; eventually Islam disappeared from the country entirely.[14]


"freedom of religion" eh
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  Quote eurokiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2012 at 22:45
Originally posted by Don Quixote

Originally posted by eurokiller

its amazing how euro genocidal maniacs have gone around the world just to kill, rob, and even forcibly  intoxicate other people but can still shamelessly point fingers

also the Ottomans rob, murder and starve people to death like the euro terrorists of the 18th century to present ... Bengal, the richest most affluent place on earth was robbed until people started dying on the streets by the british ... perhaps the Ottomans were too kind and didn't give them what they deserved?

Whom are you calling "euro genocidal maniacs", again? This is a forum with rules for civility, keep that in mind, please. This is a second informal warning; next step will be a formal warning.

The Ottomans did absolutely the same like whoever you call "18 century terrorists". They raped the Balkans, forcibly converted thousands of Christians, /giving then the choice between the Quran and the sword/, introduced the practice of the "dervishme" to the Balkan Christians to punish them for their religious choice, massacred the Thracian Bulgarians, /that's why there isn't a Bulgarian minority in Turkey, but there is Turkish minority in Bulgaria/ and genocided the Armenians. So, whoever you are glorifying is the same as whoever you are villifying.

What Turkish minority? Genocide is what the Serbs did to the Bosnian Muslims ... 

How stupid can you be to claim that there isn't a Bulgarian minority in Turkey? They never lived in Turkey in the first place, so of course there isn't! Yeah they massacred them, thats why they still exist unlike the Natives of North America and Australia. Typical shameless euro lies and BS ... Armenians had a history of continuous war against the Turks and are crawling every where in their country ... You seem to ignore the massacres of Turks in these countries ... it was either the cross or death in europe, every single Muslim in Spain was either forced to convert by Papal decree or tortured and murdered

But of course I'm not claiming that forced conversions didn't happen amongst Muslims ... that idea of Islam spreading by force is false is all I'm saying ... and that european christians have been the most brutal 


Edited by eurokiller - 21-Feb-2012 at 23:01
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2012 at 23:23
Mister eurokiller, what is Turkish Thracia now used to be Bulgaria, and full with Bulgarians, who were genocided in 1913, as documented by independent American observers
"...As has already been said, at a short distance from Havsa is Osmanly, a Bulgarian village, and there the Turks took their revenge, when they returned after the retreat of the Bulgarians. There were 114 Christian Bulgarian houses in the village. Not a single one was spared. The churches in the villages were burned and razed to the ground. The member of the Commission could see nothing but the outline of the precincts and the remains of the walls. Research in the interior recovered nothing but the debris of two chandeliers. The member of the Commission, investigating among the cinders, discovered some bits of half burned paper; they were fragments of the Gospel and the Sunday office, in Greek characters (see p. 125). The population had fled to Adrianople and from the Bulgarian frontier, i. e., towards Our Pasha. The whole of the cattle had been lost. Some dozen villagers were, however, working at the harvest in the village. ..."

http://www.ilinden.info/en/carnegie/chapter3_2.html

Bulgaria used to be all the way to the the Aegean Sea, before the Turks arrived

File:Campaigns of Ivan Assen II.png
Now none is left. So don't tell me that Bulgarians didn't live in what is now Turkey.


Edited by Don Quixote - 21-Feb-2012 at 23:26
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2012 at 23:29
Originally posted by eurokiller

How stupid can you be to claim that there isn't a Bulgarian minority in Turkey? They never lived in Turkey in the first place, so of course there isn't! Yeah they massacred them, thats why they still exist unlike the Natives of North America and Australia. Typical shameless euro lies and BS ... Armenians had a history of continuous war against the Turks and are crawling every where in their country ... You seem to ignore the massacres of Turks in these countries

You just exceeded your 3 warnings.
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  Quote eurokiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2012 at 23:49
I see the words "Turks took their REVENGE" in there, probably meaning that this was a response to a Bulgarian massacre against the Turks, mister Don
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2012 at 01:08
It cannot be said that the natives of Nothern America and Australia don't exist, because they do. If you wnat data on this just google it. The Native American were genocided in many ways, but they managed to survive. I live between 2 Native American communities, the Spokanes and the Kalispels  , and substutute-teach in a school where they learn they hardest langauge I had ever seen - Salish Native American; I should know. You show me in Turkey schools where Bulgarian minority study Bulgarian language, and is financed to do that by the Turkish state.

The Australian Aborigines didn't face an organized genocide, AFAIK. None of those ethnic groups are extant per se. It is useless anyway to compare human suffering and to say who suffered more - all suffered.

The Bulgarians in Turkish Thrace don't exist, I tried to find any, they simply don't. It's very well seen who genocided who in Thrace - Bulgarians are extant there, pure and simple. If you want to object on that, please supply data on the population of any Bulgarian minority in Turkey.
This is an ethnic map of the Balkans in 19th century:
File:Balkans-ethnique.JPG
It's plainly seen that there were plenty of Bulgarians in Thrace, now there aren't any Bulgarians, and I got this info from Turks who live in Thrace. Whoever wasn't killed or expelled was forcibly Turkified and Islamised.

Armenians - yes, they rebelled against the Turks, as they should, they were enslaved and mistreated population. They were genocided, women and kids, driven in the Syrian deserts, women raped and stuck on poles through their genitals, and those who accepted Islam to save their lives were sold as sex slaves in Turkish harems; as were the Assyrians, and a fair amount of Greeks.

Any attempts to show the Ottoman Empire as some paradise of peace and understanding is simply not panning, there is too much data against that. Which brings my bottom line - every culture and nation under the sun was at some point colonized, mistreated, genocides, etc, and most did that to someone else too; so to single out one culture, one continent or one nation as some devil, and another as some angelic creature fails. Humans do one thing best - destroying their fellow humans, and they do that under the flag of a religion, or political system, or whatever - this is besides the point.  No religion or Empire ever conquered another nation with hugs, and won over it with kisses, and Islam is not an exemption by any standards.

Islam had been spread by force in the Balkans, in North Africa, and in India/Pakistan. If it didn't spread by force, it would stay on the Arabian Peninsula, around Mecca and Medina, from where it started. It got where it is now because of conquest, not because of kisses. There were Muslim missionaries, I hear, in India, but there were Christian missionaries everywhere too. There is no difference between the Spanish forcing Christianity on the Native Americans in S.America, and the Arabs and Turks forcing Islam on Syrians, Egyptians /who were predominantly Christians when the Arabs got there/, Indians, Balkan peoples, etc.



Edited by Don Quixote - 22-Feb-2012 at 01:39
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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2012 at 13:55
Awesome, Eurokiller was suspended for 3 days! Let's celebrate, tea anyone? LOL
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2012 at 03:17
Originally posted by Don Quixote

what is Turkish Thracia now used to be Bulgaria, and full with Bulgarians, who were genocided in 1913
 
Bulgarian majority in East Thrace is a Bulgarian national fair tale, if it exists in Bulgaria. Are you telling Edirne is a Bulgarian city in early 20th century? Listen once again,what you are saying?
 
Originally posted by Don Quixote

Bulgaria used to be all the way to the the Aegean Sea, before the Turks arrived
File:Campaigns of Ivan Assen II.png
 
Posting your empire biggest map asking why we don't have these land now? I have no words to say agaist it. You are seeing big bulgaria in the map. However I am seeing aegean coast and even north thrace are not homeland of bulgarian nation. They have expended and colonized these land.

Originally posted by Don Quixote

Now none is left. So don't tell me that Bulgarians didn't live in what is now Turkey.
 
You can'tsay none. There is bulgarian community in Turkey. Yes they are a few,less than a 1000. However my first answer of this situation is not geniocide, as you did with high level of nationalism
My first answer is immigration as turk did in 1989 or before or after
 
Originally posted by Don Quixote

 
You show me in Turkey schools where Bulgarian minority study Bulgarian language, and is financed to do that by the Turkish state.
 
There is no and aslo there is no community child that much. There are just 3 minorities schools Greeks, Armenians and Jews in Turkey as Turkey accept it with Treaty of Lausanne
 
Originally posted by Don Quixote

 
File:Balkans-ethnique.JPG
 
 
There is no West Thrace Turks or Crete Turks or Rodose Turks in your map. I don't think that your map is quite trustable for turkish population
 
Here is my map from year 1912
 


Edited by Ollios - 23-Feb-2012 at 03:19
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2012 at 10:43
This is not what I'm saying, Ollios. My point was that Islam is not an exception when it comes to imperialism, as this opinion was stated. I was giving an example with the Turks invading the Balkans. This has nothing to do with having any land now, I was just provlng that Bulgarians used to live all the way to the Aegean Sea, as it was stated here that they never lived where Turkey is now. There were Bulgarian living in East Thrace, this is not a fairy tale. I have no desire to turn this in any nationalistic dispute. I'm not saying that there weren't Turks in Thrace, and my point wasn't to list all Turkish population around - my point was - there were Bulgarians in Thrace, they don't exist now, pure and simple. In the end, it doesn't matter who is what and who lives where, we all will die anyway, but to say that a population didn't exist where it did is historically not true.

Now, to claim genocide is not nationalism, and not a high level of it. Genocide is exterminating a part f population, planned as apolitical action like the Armenian genocide, like the genocide of Native Americans, this is a historic fact. As I said, almost any population in history was genocided at some point of time and space, there is nothing so strange in it. Don't try to turn what I'm saying as historic fact into a nationalistic dispute, I'm not doing that. Besides, a claimed Armenian genocide, not a Bulgarian one - the Bulgarians were massacred, and expelled, and whoever stayed was assimilated, but AFAIK there wasn't a governmetally approved plan to do so as it was in the Armenian case. This cannot be refuted. Please, let's respect each other's opinions and don't imply something in my words that I didn't put there.

People conquered each other since the beginning of time, this is normal - what I object to is presenting one side's conquests as murder and imperialism, and the other side's same behavior as something somehow different. If one is using a standard, any standard, the same standard has t o be applied to everyone. not only to one side. Any empire was build with imperialism, the Ottoman Empire is not an exception, nor is Islam per se.

I'm not going to talk anymore about local problems on this thread. I stated a general fact - Islam is not exception when it comes to imperialism, this is it; I was giving an example, and if I delved more in it it was because I was accused in stupidity, so I posted sources to prove my point. If you want to discuss Turkey per se, this has to be done on an appropriate thread, and not with me, I'm talking about generalities, and have no desire to go on local ground, and discuss which strip or land is whose, that is useless discussion to start with, because everyone conquered some land at some point that was not originally his - he Bulgars and Slavs came to the Balkans and extreminated/assimilated the Thracians, the Turks came after the Bulgarians etc, so goes history. This thread is not about Bulgaria and Turkey, it's about Egypt.


Edited by Don Quixote - 23-Feb-2012 at 10:54
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2012 at 19:52
Originally posted by Don Quixote


My point was that Islam is not an exception when it comes to imperialism, as this opinion was stated.

Any empire was build with imperialism, the Ottoman Empire is not an exception, nor is Islam per se.


Yes, I can agree both of them have imperial face. However, how does it revelant with Egypt. even  the Christinanity when started to be formal religion in Roman Empire, it also became imperial.

No mosque protests or bands of minaret in democratic Europe, show the point where they stand, not to much different. 

Originally posted by Don Quixote


I was giving an example with the Turks invading the Balkans. This has nothing to do with having any land now, I was just provlng that Bulgarians used to live all the way to the Aegean Sea, as it was stated here that they never lived where Turkey is now.


my first protests are these words "plenty of Bulgarian" , Aegean Sea and your opinion agaist Bulgarian community in Turkey

Originally posted by Don Quixote


There were Bulgarian living in East Thrace, this is not a fairy tale.


now you are changing my words, I was talking about bulgarian majority in East Thrace

Originally posted by Don Quixote


there were Bulgarians in Thrace, they don't exist now, pure and simple.


I told you, there are still bulgarians in Turkey. It is also pure and simple fact. If you can't find it, it don't make that they don't exist.
http://www.svetistephan.com/tr/index.html
http://tr-tr.facebook.com/pages/Bulgar-Eksarhl%C4%B1%C4%9F%C4%B1-Ortodoks-Kilisesi-Vakf%C4%B1/230837000263816

Originally posted by Don Quixote


In the end, it doesn't matter who is what and who lives where, we all will die anyway, but to say that a population didn't exist where it did is historically not true.


First of all, you do not even know them. How do you know their problems?  one of the biggest problem of Bulgarian comminty in Turkey is Greek community in Turkey. a well known bulgarian in Turkey is Bojidar Çipof. He was also previous chief of Bulgarian comminty group and well-known with his cases against Greek patriarchate.

His book "Patrikhane ile Mücadelem" (my fight against patriarchate)
http://blog.milliyet.com.tr/patrikhane-ile-mucadelem---bulgar-eksarhligi-vakfi-nda-15-yil--yazan--bojidar-cipof/Blog/?BlogNo=255879

Originally posted by Don Quixote


Now, to claim genocide is not nationalism, and not a high level of it. Genocide is exterminating a part f population, planned as apolitical action like the Armenian genocide, like the genocide of Native Americans, this is a historic fact.


Yes it is. İf you put everything into term genocide. What about term civil war??? some snookered nations are just using this term to get some positive image. If a nation has already started to fight for being indepence or getting more land as bulgarian did in first balkan war, I call it war.

Originally posted by Don Quixote

Besides, a claimed Armenian genocide, not a Bulgarian one

These are your tools for creating similarity between egypt and ottoman. That's makes, I have rights to argue them.  

Originally posted by Don Quixote


don't imply something in my words that I didn't put there.


Did I put anything into your words? Can you see any adds in the white bloks? These are your words from your previous posts. If you see something like that, it means, that's my mistake. Sorry for that.




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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2012 at 20:59
The links you posted abut the Bulgarian minority in Turkey is in Istanbul, not in Thrace, I claimed that there is no Bulgarian minority left in Thrace.
I didn't say that there was "Bulgarian majority" in Thrace. I said "plenty of Bulgarians", this is not the same as "majority". As for the Armenian genocide - this is not a "tool", this is well accepted historically notion, if not a fact. Civil war and the driving of the Armenians, women and children, in the desert to die are different things. If one is to justify mass killing of innocents with a political situation, then the Jewish genocide should be justified too.
I am not creating any similarity between the Ottoman Empire and Egypt, I was talking about Islam not being an exception of the fact that empires are build with imperalism.

And I'm not going to fight strawmen; if you are accusing me in "nationalism" because I accept the Armenian genocide as a genocide, you have the right to report my post. I find such an accusation unappropriate, as to talk about the Jewish genocide, and Stalinist political cleansings/genocide  is not  nationalism, but history, I apply the same standard to any other country. Mass killing of people from one nationality conceived as a plan by the ruling then political party is a genocide by definition, and the Armenian one falls in this category. This is history, not  nationalism. Hence, you may disagree with me as much as you want, but you have no right to accuse me in negative notions such as "nationalism" only because I apply the same standard to everyone.

Next, who exactly is forbidding mosques in Europe? Only Switzwenland, in some places, AFAIK, and have the right to do so. Are you going to welcome a random Chrsitian denomination to build churches anywhere they want in Turkey? No, this is up to the country to decide if there will be mosques or churches or not. Besides, the Muslims who want those mosques are emigrants, and emigrant are supposed to obey the laws of the country that accepts them, not the other way around - I'm an emigrant, I know something about that. The Copts in Egypt are not emigrants, they have historic rights, they where in Egypt before Islam got there, this is a completely different situation.

There are how many Turks in Europe, 7 mln, or so, who makes them to become Christians? There is no, AFAIK, winning Christian nationalistic party in Europe that claims the right to impose the bible as a constitution of the country, if someone was saying this, /like the whoever guy I posted quote from as doing/ I would be most disturbed. So, it's not the same, to live in a country that is secular, and have the religion you want to follow, and to live in a country that is not secular. This is another topis I'm not going to discuss with you - if you see them as the same - a possible Egyptian fundamentalist government, and EU, this is your personal opinion, not a fact.





Edited by Don Quixote - 23-Feb-2012 at 22:16
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2012 at 05:53
Originally posted by Don Quixote

The links you posted abut the Bulgarian minority in Turkey is in Istanbul, not in Thrace, I claimed that there is no Bulgarian minority left in Thrace.

European part of Istanbul is also part of a Thrace. It is simple geography

During the Bulgarian occupsion in East Thrace(1th balkan war), many Turk left the Thrace. We can say that same things happened Bulgarians in 2th balkan war, when bulgaria lost the war.

After the 2nd Balkan War (I think that is one of the biggest tradegy for Bulgarians) but Bulgaria is also lost land against Romania and Greece and after that Bulgarian population of those lands fell dramatically. Does any bulgarian blame religion of Greece or Romania?

look at this website http://h-net.org/~habsweb/sourcetexts/greeks1.htm
does any bulgarian blame greece to make genocide? or try to make similarity between greek religion and those acts?
Last of Bulgarians in Turkey have supposed to left Turkey after 1925 Agreement which allows  the minorities to take their goods and left the country for both side. Many Turks came to Turkey after the agreement.
Originally posted by Don Quixote


As for the Armenian genocide - this is not a "tool", this is well accepted historically notion, if not a fact. Civil war and the driving of the Armenians, women and children, in the desert to die are different things. If one is to justify mass killing of innocents with a political situation, then the Jewish genocide should be justified too.

Yes, it is your tool to show situation muslim goverment and christian minorities and that is your accepted nation not mine or not these guys
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Armenian_Genocide_deniers
Originally posted by Don Quixote


I am not creating any similarity between the Ottoman Empire and Egypt, I was talking about Islam not being an exception of the fact that empires are build with imperalism.

If you don't talk about something Egypt or can be similar with it, you should open a new topic. Why did you choose Ottoman? because religion. You are just turning around the words
Originally posted by Don Quixote


And I'm not going to fight strawmen; if you are accusing me in "nationalism" because I accept the Armenian genocide as a genocide, you have the right to report my post.

Nationalism is not something you can accuse someone. My attitude against your closed theories
*this map shows "plenty of bulgarian", but they are not in there now. That means they were genocided by someone
*
I accept the Armenian genocide as a genocide
*your theory about Thrace and Istanbul
these are easy and closed mining also you don't left any open gate to someone can argue with you.
Originally posted by Don Quixote


Next, who exactly is forbidding mosques in Europe? Only Switzwenland, in some places, AFAIK, and have the right to do so. Are you going to welcome a random Chrsitian denomination to build churches anywhere they want in Turkey? No, this is up to the country to decide if there will be mosques or churches or not.

That shouldn't up to the country, Turkey or Switzwenland. Each religion have deserve respect.
Originally posted by Don Quixote


Besides, the Muslims who want those mosques are emigrants, and emigrant are supposed to obey the laws of the country that accepts them, not the other way around - I'm an emigrant, I know something about that.

First generation can be migrants, however people who were born in there, are local people not migrants. I have been in London too for more than one a half year, maybe I don't have much opinion as you have, but being a christian migrant in diffirent christian country different than being muslim migrant.
Originally posted by Don Quixote

The Copts in Egypt are not emigrants, they have historic rights, they where in Egypt before Islam got there, this is a completely different situation.

Of cource, they have. If I have change to visit Egypt, I wanna see a coptic church. But also egyptian pagan had too.
You are worried about coptics after Islamic goverment will be select by democrarcy in Egypt. However, according to your words, there is no problem whatever happened in Europe against muslims, these are just local things, it ups to goverments. even they have citizenship, they are just migrant
it does't matter, killed German Turks or fired mosques in Bulgaria or  proposed none started mosque in Athens.
Originally posted by Don Quixote


it's not the same, to live in a country that is secular, and have the religion you want to follow, and to live in a country that is not secular.

How can you talking about secularity and from up side "this is up to the country to decide...". This perpective have none contact with secularity. it is contrast. Country or other majority people of country shouldn't have rights to talk about minorities religion.
Originally posted by Don Quixote


This is another topis I'm not going to discuss with you - if you see them as the same - a possible Egyptian fundamentalist government, and EU, this is your personal opinion, not a fact.

again close mining. Your opinion is fact but my is just personel Dead Is that your way of respect others opinions? (as you seem it important)

------------------------------
my main point is that you can not make a general judment on Ottoman or Islam like that. If every islamic goverment is threat, every christian goverment is threat too.

main problem is people who believe religion X, have to face problems when they are living in people of religion Y's country. You can put whatever religion you want into X and Y. This shouldn't suppose to be.










Edited by Ollios - 24-Feb-2012 at 05:54
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2012 at 09:58
Istanbul is Istanbul, not rural Thrace. When you saw "New York" one thinks of the city, not some village in the corner of the same state/. I didn't mean Istanbul when I said "Thrace".

No, my opinion is not a fact, Olliso, I never said that, it's an opinion like yours.It's an opinion to say that "no country should have bans of churches or mosques", and that EU as doing the same as possible Egyptian Islamists can do - it's an opinion because it depends on the POV, not on what already happened. I'm not sure with you mean with "close mining" expression. As for not leaving a door - I'm not here to convince you, or anyone for that matter, I just state what I think about the matter - to try to convince you would be pushing my opinion on you, which I don;t like to do, nor do I like someone to push his opinion on me.

There are some facts, however, things that really happened, like between 1mln and 1.5 mln Armenians were killed, /if I kill you, this would be a fact, I think you would agree with that/ the death of so many people is fact. I'll not change my standards I apply to every country, and call it something else only because you want me so.

So, one is entitled to one's own opinions, but not to one's own facts. Our opinions differ, I don't mind, you keep your opinion, I keep mine. Certain things are facts, they cannot be changed - how dies is a fact, who was raped, and starved, those are facts.

Again, I was jut proving that Islam was/is as much imperialistic as Europe was told here to be, Turkey was just an example, I gave other examples too, like North Africa. This is not a thread about Turkey per se, I'm not going to talk about it.
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