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AK-47 or M-16? NATO or Warsaw?

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Poll Question: Which one do you think was better?The good old Kelesh or the mighty?
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  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: AK-47 or M-16? NATO or Warsaw?
    Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 13:54

Accuracy?! Wahta that that has to do with it? Are we talking about some snipers here?

Take the Dragunov. It was a modified AK47. I hit at point blank at 500 meters with that gun. I tried it at 1000 meters and it was about the same.

Stopping power? What if a round hits a bone? You wouldn't like that to be a 7,62!

What if you get a clear wound by a AK47 instead of a nasty one by a M16? "Oh, great, it was a 7,62 that blow this hole on me! It has less stopping power than a 5,56! I can go on! I'm Rambo!!!"

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2006 at 18:57
For starters, the Draganov SVD sniper rifle is not a modified AK. The Draganov was designed orginally as a long range support weapon. Kalashnikov have nothing to do with the Dranganov.

Well...one thing I can say is that the AK is a fine short-medium range assault weapon, but for the medium-long range, the M16 is a must for both the range and accuracy to come together. The 7.62 x 39 M1943 does not have the power charge for such a range but for close range, it's lower velocity and wider caliber definately shows in terms of knock-down power. They in my opinion are the best pair of assault rifles ever created in the 20th century, but lets get realistic. The AK has already been surpassed and so has the M16. The battlefields of the 21st century will definately have AK's, but M16's will flood the market once the M-8 becomes the standard assault weapon for the U.S. Armed forces. 

Edited by AFV Master
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2006 at 18:59
There is no more point for us to debate a cold war topic. This is the modern era and these two relics are going to be replaced by the AN-94 and M-8.
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  Quote Jay. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2006 at 21:21
AK is much cheaper, but the M-16 is more effective. If I had a choice I would choose the AK..you can change the mag' much faster.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 17:39

AK-47

Come on, the M16 is all fine and dandy... until you're in the field.

Or at least that seems to be what the American soldiers in the field are saying these days. There's some page about this somewhere...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1526448/posts

 

1) The M-16 rifle : Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the talcum powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere. [The Marine] says you feel filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower. The M-4 carbine version is more popular because it's lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems also. They like the ability to mount the various optical gunsights and weapons lights on the picattiny rails, but the weapon itself is not great in a desert environment. They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor penetration on the cinderblock structure common over there and even torso hits cant be reliably counted on to put the enemy down. Fun fact: Random autopsies on dead insurgents shows a high level of opiate use.

2) The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon): .223 cal. Drum fed light machine gun. Big thumbs down. Universally considered a piece of sh*t. Chronic jamming problems, most of which require partial disassembly. (that's fun in the middle of a firefight).

3) The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in desert environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys hit multiple times and still in the fight

4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun: Works well, used frequently for clearing houses to good effect.

5) The M240 Machine Gun: 7.62 Nato (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun, developed to replace the old M-60 (what a beautiful weapon that was!!). Thumbs up. Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62 round puts 'em down. Originally developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being dismounted and taken into the field by infantry. The 7.62 round chews up the structure over there.

6) The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way, way up. "Ma deuce" is still worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight stopper, puts their dicks in the dirt every time. The most coveted weapon in-theater.

7) The ..45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best pistol round out there. Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one. With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to put 'em down with a torso hit. The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK military model and supposedly love it. The old government model .45's are being re-issued en masse.

8) The M-14: Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a modified version to special ops guys. Modifications include lightweight Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round.

9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up. Spectacular range and accuracy and hits like a freight train. Used frequently to take out vehicle suicide bombers ( we actually stop a lot of them) and barricaded enemy. Definitely here to stay.

10) The M24 sniper rifle: Thumbs up. Mostly in 308 but some in 300 win mag. Heavily modified Remington 700's. Great performance. Snipers have been used heavily to great effect. Rumor has it that a marine sniper on his third tour in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hathcock's record for confirmed kills with OVER 100.

11) The new body armor: Thumbs up. Relatively light at approx. 6 lbs. and can reliably be expected to soak up small shrapnel and even will stop an AK-47 round. The bad Hot as sh*t to wear, almost unbearable in the summer heat (which averages over 120 degrees). Also, the enemy now goes for head shots when ever possible. All the bullsh*t about the "old" body armor making our guys vulnerable to the IED's was a non-starter. The IED explosions are enormous and body armor doesn't make any difference at all in most cases.

12) Night Vision and Infrared Equipment: Thumbs way up. Spectacular performance. Our guys see in the dark and own the night, period. Very little enemy action after evening prayers. More and more enemy being whacked at night during movement by our hunter-killer teams. We've all seen the videos.

13) Lights: Thumbs up. Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights are Surefire's, and the troops love 'em. Invaluable for night urban operations. [The Marine] carried a $34 Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and loved it.

I cant help but notice that most of the good fighting weapons and ordnance are 50 or more years old!!!!!!!!! With all our technology, it's the WWII and Vietnam era weapons that everybody wants!!!! The infantry fighting is frequent, up close and brutal. No quarter is given or shown.

Bad guy weapons:

1) Mostly AK47's The entire country is an arsenal. Works better in the desert than the M16 and the .308 Russian round kills reliably. PKM belt fed light machine guns are also common and effective. Luckily, the enemy mostly shoots like sh*t. Undisciplined "spray and pray" type fire. However, they are seeing more and more precision weapons, especially sniper rifles. (Iran, again)

Fun fact: Captured enemy have apparently marveled at the marksmanship of our guys and how hard they fight. They are apparently told in Jihad school that the Americans rely solely on technology, and can be easily beaten in close quarters combat for their lack of toughness. Let's just say they know better now.

2) The RPG: Probably the infantry weapon most feared by our guys. Simple, reliable and as common as dogsh*t. The enemy responded to our up-armored humvees by aiming at the windshields, often at point blank range. Still killing a lot of our guys.

3) The IED: The biggest killer of all. Can be anything from old Soviet anti-armor mines to jury rigged artillery shells. A lot found in [The Marine's] area were in abandoned cars. The enemy would take 2 or 3 155mm artillery shells and wire them together. Most were detonated by cell phone, and the explosions are enormous. You're not safe in any vehicle, even an M1 tank. Driving is by far the most dangerous thing our guys do over there. Lately, they are much more sophisticated "shape charges" (Iran ian) specifically designed to penetrate armor.

Fact: Most of the ready made IED's are supplied by Iran, who is also providing terrorists (Hezbollah types) to train the insurgents in their use and tactics. That's why the attacks have been so deadly lately. Their concealment methods are ingenious, the latest being shape charges in Styrofoam containers spray painted to look like the cinderblocks that litter all Iraqi roads. We find about 40% before they detonate, and the bomb disposal guys are unsung heroes of this war.

4) Mortars and rockets: Very prevalent. The soviet era 122mm rockets (with an 18km range) are becoming more prevalent. One of [The Marine's] NCO's lost a leg to one. These weapons cause a lot of damage "inside the wire". [The Marine's] base was hit almost daily his entire time there by mortar and rocket fire, often at night to disrupt sleep patterns and cause fatigue (It did). More of a psychological weapon than anything else. The enemy mortar teams would jump out of vehicles, fire a few rounds, and then haul ass in a matter of seconds.

5) Bad guy technology: Simple yet effective. Most communication is by cell and satellite phones, and also by email on laptops. They use handheld GPS units for navigation and "Google earth" for overhead views of our positions. Their weapons are good, if not fancy, and prevalent.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 17:41

That said... the M-16 is the rock in Battlefield 2. ESPECIALLY the grenade launcher option. Sooo easy to take out a squad or a soldier on foot trying to run evasively.

Pshhhh... replaced?

There are far, far, far too many million 47's out there to replace them in several decades. Even modern armies reuse inferior (but expensive) weapons...



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  Quote Manuver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 01:01

ok. You have to start with what the respective countries desired in a service rifle. The Soviets devised the AK to give to poorly trained troops. As such, its pluses are:

Lower manufacturing abilities required

Minimal training for maintenance and use

Loose tolerences for use in harsh condidtions

The detractions are

measurably less accurate than western weapons

7.62 X 39MM is only efective out to 300-350 yards (if there are any American hunters out there, it is ballisticaly comprable to the .30-.30 Win)

rudamentary sights

The M-16 pattern was designed to take advantage of emerging plastics technology in 1959 by Eugene Stoner. Its pluses are:

Accurate out to 880 meters

Garand type iron sights

light-weight

the down side of the M-16 pattern is

More expensive to manufacture and difficult to make

Requires more training than the AK patterns

Requires more maintanance than an AK.

So, if i am a General, i would base my purchase on the following criteria;

1. Am i equiping my own men, who i am going to train well to maintain the weapon or am i going to arm someone elses militia that i am going to spend minimal resources on training?

2. Am i going to train the troops to use aimed, disciplined fire, or am i going to teach them to "spray and Pray"?

If i answer yes to the first part of both questions, i am going to go with the M-16. If i answer yes to the second segment of each question, i am going with the AK.

One caviat to this is if i know that my troops will never engage the enemy at ranges beyond 300 yards, I will lend much more to the AK than before.

As far as the M-16 rattling when fired, that is because the recoil spring is located to the rear of the upper receiver and functions "in-line". When the weapon is cycling, the recoil spring or "buffer group" is two to three inches below the operators ear. The Kalishnakov pattern weapons, as do the  majority of service rifles in current use, have the recoil spring located forward of the receiver, either below (Garand, M-14) or above (AK, G-3-MP-5 series) the barrel.

Most service rifles in modern use come from the STG-44 of the closing days of WW II. The AK, the galil, the G-3......

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  Quote BlackRaven135 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 21:30
The M-16 has a tragic history of poor performance.  When the model was first introduced during the Vietnam War troops were found dead next to an M-16 that had been field-stripped due to a jam. Nice weapon!Angry
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  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 05:28
Kanyashna AK-47Wink
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  Quote Laelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 15:36
The M-16 has a tragic history of poor performance.  When the model was first introduced during the Vietnam War troops were found dead next to an M-16 that had been field-stripped due to a jam. Nice weapon!Angry
 
The poor reliability of the M-16 has been vastly overstated, when it was first introduced it was sent without cleaning kits.  Colt had maintained that because of the weapons space age design it would never need to be cleaned...
 
The tragic part of the M-16 is that wih a few simple modifications it would be a much better combat rifle that it already is.  Using the courser stick grained powder it was designed to use and creating new models using the simpler bolt mechanism of the civilian AR-18.  Though these changes would decrease the rate of fire they would make the gun far more reliable. 
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  Quote Renegade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 15:57
Originally posted by Abyssmal Fiend

AK-47 VS M-16 A1 is almost an exact match. The AK-47 bullets are a bit wider at the head, that's about it.

AK-47 VS M-16 A2 (Current Issue) isn't even a challenge. With the A2's lack of weight, it's so much better than the AK-47.

AKM VS M-16 A2 I'd say the AKM is a step up from the AK-47, but still doesn't match the A2. Still too heavy to be effective.

AK-74 VS M-16 A2, AK-74 hands down. A bit lighter, smaller, doesn't fire as far, less recoil... It's basically a Russian MP5.



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"I kill a few so that many may live."

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