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Freedom for Palestine

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Freedom for Palestine
    Posted: 22-Sep-2011 at 19:09

After 60 years of oppression Palestine is on the cusp of regaining its independence. Despite Israel's bullying and America's futile demands, it seems most of the world (including Russia, China and the EU) supports the Palestinian people
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2011 at 01:29
Freedom for Palestine = Long Live Terrorism!
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2011 at 12:56
There's been terrorism in the Middle East since Israel (a state founded through bombing and killing) stole the Palestinians' land. Once the Muslim descendents of the biblical Jews have a country of their own, Islamist terrorism will lose much of its remaining legitimacy as the majority of its supporters will no longer have a reason to hate America and her allies
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2011 at 14:49
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Freedom for Palestine = Long Live Terrorism!


Hi Cyrus I agree and I would like to see peace and some type of settlement between Istrael and Palestine but I don't see it happening real soon.



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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2011 at 16:09
As long as Hamas exsists and perps their perp...no peace...no state. Good for defense contractors.Wink
 
 
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2011 at 19:02
Hamas aren't much of a threat to us. They exist mostly as a militia protecting ordinary Palestinians as the Fatah-controlled organisations are unable to do so. Their attacks on Israel are largely a reaction to the illegal settlements, done out of frustration at the international community's refusal to help them. It's the foreign groups like Al-Qaeda we need to worry about. They use the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as an excuse for their own twisted ideology: creating a theocratic empire to challenge western progress
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2011 at 19:58

no comment
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2011 at 04:04
Originally posted by Nick1986

Hamas aren't much of a threat to us. They exist mostly as a militia protecting ordinary Palestinians as the Fatah-controlled organisations are unable to do so. Their attacks on Israel are largely a reaction to the illegal settlements, done out of frustration at the international community's refusal to help them. It's the foreign groups like Al-Qaeda we need to worry about. They use the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as an excuse for their own twisted ideology: creating a theocratic empire to challenge western progress
 
Any primary or proxie of terror is a threat. Any proxie and advocate of nation state destruction and antisemitism is a threat.
 
No ducking it.Wink
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2011 at 06:22
I hope that UN can give a decision as a neutral 


because they didn't do anything about these

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel 


 
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2011 at 15:31
There has never been any independent country named Palestine, if Muslims really think about freedom for peoples in the region and it not a matter of religious hatred toward Jews, then they can give this freedom to Kurds, Balochs and some other people who fight for freedom for hundreds of years, instead of killing them!!
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2011 at 20:24
At one time there was no Ireland, no Poland and no Bangladesh. However, the people considered themselves a nation and, after years of struggle, regained their independence. Everyone has the right to self-rule: should Iraq collapse into anarchy the Kurds would be wise to create their own independent state
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2011 at 14:16
Palestinians have chosen the worst way to gain independence, it will be a disaster for the whole world, if terrorists kill innocent people and gain their aims, I believe freedom for a people whose heroes are some suicide bombers who blast children's buses, is insecurity for other people in the region and even in the world.
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2011 at 16:32
for there is no evil and good side in palestine.

I don't know any nation who won't do Palestinian did



Edited by Ollios - 25-Sep-2011 at 16:40
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2011 at 19:25
Originally posted by Ollios

for there is no evil and good side in palestine.I don't know any nation who won't do <span id="result_" ="short_text" lang="en"><span ="hps">Palestinian</span></span> did<span id="result_" ="short_text" lang="en"><span ="hps"></span></span>


Including Israel. For years they have committed human rights abuses and attacked critics with allegations of antisemitism
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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2011 at 10:05
I strongly agree with Nick, the creation of a Palestinian state is legitimate and it is more so given that it is being backed by many of the members of the UN. If we went back just 60 years ago, we would have clearly seen that Palestinians were the only sovereign millet in the region before 1917 when general Allenby conquered palestine. Jews were living amongst the Palestinians and before the Zionist movement, there was no Anti-Semitism. It is the bold and cheeky proclamation that Jews should return from all over the world, displace the Palestinians and rule with sovereignty which is the cause of the strife we know of today. Where was all this anti-semitism before?

Some like Cyrus mentioned that Hamas and fath are still a threat to Israel and the West and for this reason, Palestinians don't deserve a state. But then, as Nick pointed out, you are being an elitist. You have not been put in the situation that Palestinians were put in and as such the aggression and acts of 'terrorism' perpetrated by Hamas seem like a deal breaker. But considering their situation and that palestinians, having no state thus no army, could not defend themselves against the ever increasing Israeli radius of influence and settlements. Hamas uses guerrila tactics which is what citizen militias often resort to because in a frontal assault against a well-armed military such Israel's, they stand no chance. I am not for the massacre of innocent Israeli citizens, yet I in their case I would definitely not stand for the endless onslaught on palestinian children and women (compare the death toll on both sides and keep in mind that one has a state, the other does not).

And no Cyrus, there is no religious hatred towards Jews, it is all intertwined with hatred towards Zionism and Israel which Al Qaeda members love to twist around to gain supporters throughout the Muslim world.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2011 at 13:59
In September 2008 a group of wounded Palestinians were transferred to Iran, some days later a famous sentence which was said by one of them, could be found in numerous Persian websites: "I prefer to die than to be polluted by dirty shia blood!"
 
Unfortunately religious bigotry is a very serious problem in the Middle East, You can see the situation of Shia Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Bahrain, Yemen, Iraq and etc, of course we also know about the situation of Sunni Muslims in Iran, they are all Muslims but they could never live peacefully together.
 
The situation of non-Muslims has been always so much worse than it, no one can forget Armenian and Assyrian Christian genocides in the previous century, these people now want to wipe out Israeli Jews.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2011 at 15:13
Indeed. The very idea that anti-semitism and a desire to destroy a nation state by those such as Hamas is to be refuted as a grandiose reflection of democratic principals, on their part, is ridiculous.  In point of fact they have no such democratic motivation. Theirs is exactly what they purport it to be and desire...and is facilitated by like nation states with the same intent and agenda.
 
It is further naive to assume that an aforementioned hatred of Zionism, as a means to serve an end, is also, ntl, still a closeted if not overt hatred of Jews and Israel in toto. For like it or not, Zionism is Israel in a part and Israeli's are Jews.
 
So an/the assumption that one can hate only one and not the other is, imo, patent pro-Palestinian... pro-Hamas support.... propo nonsense.
 
Support Hamas.... equals support terror.


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 26-Sep-2011 at 16:33
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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2011 at 18:13
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

In September 2008 a group of wounded Palestinians were transferred to Iran, some days later a famous sentence which was said by one of them, could be found in numerous Persian websites: "I prefer to die than to be polluted by dirty shia blood!"
 
Unfortunately religious bigotry is a very serious problem in the Middle East, You can see the situation of Shia Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Bahrain, Yemen, Iraq and etc, of course we also know about the situation of Sunni Muslims in Iran, they are all Muslims but they could never live peacefully together.
 
The situation of non-Muslims has been always so much worse than it, no one can forget Armenian and Assyrian Christian genocides in the previous century, these people now want to wipe out Israeli Jews.


You are mixing up the hatred of a few with that of many. What a group of wounded Plaestinians in 2008 can't possibly be the idea shared with all Palestinians. These peoblems in my opinion are almost never social and have no origin in the people themselves; they are merely projections of politics, a ruling few oppressing the many such as in Bahrain. this causes further strife when the politics are a cause for religious hatred. I myself being an Arab can refute all of this hatred which you Cyrus believe is common ground between Shi'a, Sunnis and Sufis. Why is it that in Middle-Eastern nations ,that are actually politically stable, there is very little of this aggression and hatred?

I have lived many years in the United Arab Emirates and I can already tell you that you can find Arabs from every country living there. Never did I ever hear or witness any animosity between Christians, Sunnis or Shi'a and all these people do in fact reside there. I have seldom heard Iraqis speak about the state in which their country was before the American invasion. Christians and Muslims had always lived together and shared the same streets and neighbourhoods?

I am sorry but just because things have recently spiraled out of control, you do not have the right to assume and claim that Shi'a and Sunnis can't live together in peace... Not under the current political 'structures' I agree, yet to make this some kind of universal truth is something i won't agree with...

 
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2011 at 18:29
Allen West Schools on Palestinian Statehood

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zoFzsjA3eM&feature=player_embedded#!

I hope he runs for President of the USA in 2016 unless 2012 is the end of the world-
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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2011 at 18:37
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Indeed. The very idea that anti-semitism and a desire to destroy a nation state by those such as Hamas is to be refuted as a grandiose reflection of democratic principals, on their part, is ridiculous.  In point of fact they have no such democratic motivation. Theirs is exactly what they purport it to be and desire...and is facilitated by like nation states with the same intent and agenda.
 
It is further naive to assume that an aforementioned hatred of Zionism, as a means to serve an end, is also, ntl, still a closeted if not overt hatred of Jews and Israel in toto. For like it or not, Zionism is Israel in a part and Israeli's are Jews.
 
So an/the assumption that one can hate only one and not the other is, imo, patent pro-Palestinian... pro-Hamas support.... propo nonsense.
 
Support Hamas.... equals support terror.


Considering this post, I find very little that we can discuss because of the very bias reeking between these lines. So as far as i can understand, if Jews are at a potential risk or threat from the Palestinians this must be fought against as it is unjust and would make one a pro-terrorist... Yet, if one supports Israel as a legitimate state that is simply defending itself against terrorist groups ,such as hamas which kill innocent Israeli citizens, and in such an act kills many Palestinians and blockades the rest, that in your opinion is somewhat more acceptable and not as condemnable as a potential Palestinian rise in power?

What I am trying to say is that Israel as a state has constantly undermined the Palestinian identity, culture and sovereignty. The killing and bombing that Israel has committed against Palestinians is in no way excusable and neither is any of the settling. To expect Palestinians to calmly accept the back then looming reality of Zionist expansion is in fact what is ridiculous! Stop linking Hamas with this false connotation of terrorism because i think they at least did something to face Israel's illegitimate expansion, albeit perpetrating some questionable acts (still in no way even comparable to those commited by Israel of course).

I already spoke about anti-semitism, it did not exist before Israel's inception, that is proof enough of the sources of such a fabrication... Let us first condemn Israel who IS a state and is thus responsible of her acts, then once the unilateralism is over and oppression is no longer, then will we see if there is any Anti-Semitism. The word itself is a joke, both Arabs and Jews are semites, why use it exclusively for hatred towards Jews, bias much?
 
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