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Cochise: American hero
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Nick1986 
Emperor 
Mighty Slayer of Trolls Joined: 22-Mar-2011 Location: England Online Status: Offline Posts: 7940 |
 Topic: Cochise: American heroPosted: 31-Aug-2011 at 19:05 |
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Indian chieftain Cochise was respected by white man and native alike. A fierce but honorable fighter, Cochise took on the mighty US army to protect his home and family from white invasion after being unfairly accused of abducting a boy. His guerrilla war in Arizona was so successful the Americans were forced to sign a peace treaty due to their inability to capture Cochise who hid in the Dragoon Mountains and fought both Northern and Southern troops during the Civil War. The other hero of the Apache War was Oliver Howard, the Christian General. A deeply religious man who lost an arm in the Civil War, Howard could see the pointlessness of the killings and, with help from Cochise's blood-brother the army scout Tom Jeffords, finally persuaded Cochise to end the war. Cochise's ancestral hunting-grounds became the official reservation of the Apaches where his descendents continue to tend their cattle to this day |
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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Centrix Vigilis
Emperor
Joined: 18-Aug-2006 Location: The Llano Online Status: Offline Posts: 7392 |
Posted: 31-Aug-2011 at 21:55 |
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He was K'uu-ch'ish.
Natan Chokonen Chiricahua.
More then just a chief or sub-chief he was, as much as Mangas, the symbol most beloved by Apacheria.
He still is.
And like his Oglala contemporary to the northeast...Tȟašúŋke Witkó ..no one knows where he rests.
To say more would susuperfluous other then Cochise's relatives still live and thrive on the Mescalero near Ruidoso NM.
(42 miles from my current location)
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
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Cryptic
Arch Duke 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 05-Jul-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1962 |
Posted: 01-Sep-2011 at 11:42 |
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That is in contrast to Geronimo. I saw an in depth documentary on PBS, several Apache elders said that in contrast to the popular myth, many Apaches have mixed views about Geronimo and he is not the tribe's most admired hsitorical figure.
They went on to relate that Geronimo had a "troubled spirit" and a reputation for mood swings and aggression, even before the wars with the settlers. Once the conflicts with the settlers started, some, or many Apaches, felt that Geronimo was crossing the fine and blurry line dividing guerilla warfare from banditry and was provoking avoidable conflicts.
After one particular nasty incident (Geronimo's group killed and entire family of settlers, despite the fact that they were not living on Apapche land and had been promised that they would not be harmed if they provided food and shelter), the only Apaches still following Geronimo were his immediate relatives. Edited by Cryptic - 01-Sep-2011 at 11:56 |
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Centrix Vigilis
Emperor
Joined: 18-Aug-2006 Location: The Llano Online Status: Offline Posts: 7392 |
Posted: 01-Sep-2011 at 16:33 |
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Ah yup...but he remains a different case and to some a different reason as and or for being admired.
But you are correct in the general 'public' voiced reaction that is aired. otoh it was also quite common for 'agency' or as declared by white authorities for 'peaceful injuns' to voice that which white authority and this includes academia, wanted to here.
In certain aspects they still do this today.
The only real way to know..
(and I have the research-life experience background to demonstrate this)
assuming... they are willing to speak in the first place or even give a damn about the subject is to...
through long association and visits with them on and off the res...
get to know their actual beliefs and opinions and not that which might make a good three minute tele doc spot.
Natives still love to.. not lie exactly... but misrepresent to a degree... their actual viewpoint when it comes to dealing with 'whites'. For a lot of reasons. But mainly it is because they don't like nor trust them to any initial specific degree and view their questions as intrusive and none of their business.
This is overcome thru action and interaction that demonstrates an actual interest that is tempered with respect and observance of their cultural beliefs and social mores and norms.
But alas that don't come overnight.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
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Nick1986
Emperor
Mighty Slayer of Trolls Joined: 22-Mar-2011 Location: England Online Status: Offline Posts: 7940 |
Posted: 01-Sep-2011 at 19:46 |
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General Howard |
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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eaglecap
Tsar 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 15-Feb-2005 Location: ArizonaUSA Online Status: Offline Posts: 3959 |
Posted: 01-Sep-2011 at 20:27 |
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I live in Cochise County and I have hiked many times to Cochise Stronghold in the Dragoon Mtns. It is so true what you say and I love the native American history of the desert Southwest. I have also hiked in the Chiricahua Mtns which are named after the Chiricahua Apache Indians, very beautiful pine covered mountains and rugged. The Apache Indians migrated into this region in the 1400s so the Zuni, Pueblo and Hopi are much older tribes. I agree, to his people, he was a hero who defended his lands just like the Pueblo or Hopi defended their lands from Apache or Navajo raids. The Amerind Musuem near the Dragoon Mtns is a good resource for this type of information. |
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Cryptic
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 05-Jul-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1962 |
Posted: 02-Sep-2011 at 10:30 |
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Much like Quantrell verse General Lee
Ironically, it has gone full circle today. The PBS documentary (PBS is pretty PC) was expecting the Apache elders to affirm that Geronimo was a George Washington type persona and a paragon of Apache virtue. What they were told was the Geronimo seems to have had far more in common with Quantrell and his Jayhawker opposites than he did George Washington.
Maybe you could ask some of the ones you know who the real Geronimo was.
It would be very interesting to see what their response would be. It would also be interesting to learn if Geonimo participated in any aggressive raids against the Navoho, Hopi etc and what kind of reputation he and his group had on these raids. Edited by Cryptic - 02-Sep-2011 at 10:52 |
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eaglecap
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 15-Feb-2005 Location: ArizonaUSA Online Status: Offline Posts: 3959 |
Posted: 02-Sep-2011 at 14:32 |
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I should check into writing about the local tribes and western lore for one of the many publications here. The Amerind Museum makes a great resource for this
Apache country near the Dragoon Mtns- one of my cars 
Cochise Head in the beautiful Chiricahua (Cher-a-cow-wah) mtns -Turkey creek. If you look long enough you can see the face. This area did not burn in the fire. 
both photos are mine |
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Cryptic
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 05-Jul-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1962 |
Posted: 02-Sep-2011 at 16:49 |
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That would be alot of fun. Maybe you could volunteer at the museum to get some research ideas. For example, who were the early historical or the paleo indians residing in those areas. Did the Apache assimilate them in the 1400s, or were they forced out and merged with pueblo tribes? Edited by Cryptic - 02-Sep-2011 at 16:52 |
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Centrix Vigilis
Emperor
Joined: 18-Aug-2006 Location: The Llano Online Status: Offline Posts: 7392 |
Posted: 02-Sep-2011 at 17:59 |
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Business there is limited but I will call a friend on the Mescalero and arrange a sit down..just about time to go fishing again over in their country anyway. I will be up north, in a couple of weeks, near the Jicarrilla on business...will do the same with several I know there. Give me some time and I will report back.
But I can tell ya this much never have I ever heard of a Apache raiding into a Navajo neighboring region..they were and remain kinsmen..as members of the Apachean group. The confusion lies in the use of the terms ascribed to the varying sub tribes after approx 1850 and the term used by the Din'e (Navajo) to describe themselves....to those used by others in the varying sub-groups.
They both did raid the Hopi-Zuni (More so the Din'e-Navajo) frequently, for land and water useage in the region which they both claimed. (As their cultures are very similar especially in stock raising and dry subsistence farming) Losts of bad blood over that to this day (Hopi vs. Navajo), to a degree, tho it got better as they all got screwed by the expansionists.
They both (Apache-Navajo..again more so the Navajo because of immediate proximity) raided the hell out of the Utes and vice versa; and their hatred of the 17th-18th ce Spanish-Mexicans is legendary. Occassionally, the Comanches (as did the Apache) raided into the region as far west as the region of the Jornada and or even into the deserts of the Yavapai... but those were extremely isolated.
But I'll get back to you on the queries reference Geronimo.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
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Cryptic
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 05-Jul-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1962 |
Posted: 03-Sep-2011 at 08:53 |
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I believe that you are mistaken about Navaho - apache relations. Nothing demonstrates this more than the circumstances that led to the "Death Cave".
Navaho verse Apache emnity goes back centuries. Apaches arrived in the area relatively recently from the area that today is west Texas and eastern New Mexico and are not related (either by ethnicity or by treaty to Navahos. Rather, the Navaho are an isolate group whose nearest cousins linguistically are in Canada.
Navahos, however, could be relatively good terms (usually) with New Mexican Hispanos (New Mexicans of direct Spanish descent who viewed themselves as being a distinct "tribe" and seperate from both Mexicans and anglos.) Hispano culture has remained strongest in the high mountains of the Espanola area.
Thanks, that spound great. Edited by Cryptic - 03-Sep-2011 at 09:10 |
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Centrix Vigilis
Emperor
Joined: 18-Aug-2006 Location: The Llano Online Status: Offline Posts: 7392 |
Posted: 03-Sep-2011 at 09:18 |
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We will have to disagree on your former but I will double check with my guys @ Un of NM.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
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Cryptic
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 05-Jul-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1962 |
Posted: 05-Sep-2011 at 09:19 |
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I now understand that the Navaho and Apache languages are related. At the same time, both the Death Cave incident and other indirect material that I have seen suggests that the Apache and the Navaho were long standing rivals and not informal allies.
Could you ask about possible Apache Navaho rivalry the next time you speak to a knowledgable person? Edited by Cryptic - 05-Sep-2011 at 09:21 |
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Centrix Vigilis
Emperor
Joined: 18-Aug-2006 Location: The Llano Online Status: Offline Posts: 7392 |
Posted: 05-Sep-2011 at 14:01 |
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A lesser man would have considered that a mild yet in direct rebuke.......WE are both knowledgable already. But knowledege must be reknewed eh Crytpic and refreshed.
Have already done what you requested and am awaiting a reply from a distinguished Professor-scholar in residence at The Un. of New Mexico.
Will keep you informed.
CV
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
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eaglecap
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 15-Feb-2005 Location: ArizonaUSA Online Status: Offline Posts: 3959 |
Posted: 08-Sep-2011 at 20:26 |
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I was up by the trail head and campground for the Cochise Strong hold last weekend. We took a trail to some cave formed by boulders with Apache Petroglyphs in them, beautiful. I will post my pics when I can of them.
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Centrix Vigilis
Emperor
Joined: 18-Aug-2006 Location: The Llano Online Status: Offline Posts: 7392 |
Posted: 09-Sep-2011 at 07:37 |
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Tough country...stouthearts required.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
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eaglecap
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 15-Feb-2005 Location: ArizonaUSA Online Status: Offline Posts: 3959 |
Posted: 09-Sep-2011 at 13:56 |
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You would really have to know how to live off the land in order to take a stand there, very rugged and rocky. I want to fill my camera with more pictures before I put it on a disk. 
image by stellern.com |
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Centrix Vigilis
Emperor
Joined: 18-Aug-2006 Location: The Llano Online Status: Offline Posts: 7392 |
Posted: 09-Sep-2011 at 20:09 |
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And it's because of the terrain that, other then those who know it, it would make it a lousy final battle position. Food and water perse are not the major concerns as ya can find these if you know 'how and where' to look. Tougher during hot weather periods but it's done.
It's greatest single challenge during Cochise's heyday (and today) was to movement. And that can be a two edged sword if one has the temerity to know where and when and how to conduct blocking operations against a force that used it (or would currently use it) as a base camp.
Traffic-ability of it, in virtually any direction, except along noted paths of egress and exits (read wadi-canyon floors) with many well hidden [naturally camofluged and often extremely narrow] entrances is stunningly limited. Even today. We both know this.
 And even the vaunted Apache didn't live on the rock cliff tops, out in the open (no water there) nor did they graze their stock (mostly stolen as a results of raids) along some 8-20 inch wide path along a canyon wall.
Otoh, given the era and the tech, of the Apacheria, it made it a stunningly brilliant position from which to 'conduct raids' out of ... and to conduct 'defensive delaying operations' from...(until countered by different tactics and logistics) while the women and 'the kids got the hell out of one canyon into another.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
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Nick1986
Emperor
Mighty Slayer of Trolls Joined: 22-Mar-2011 Location: England Online Status: Offline Posts: 7940 |
Posted: 25-Sep-2011 at 19:15 |
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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Centrix Vigilis
Emperor
Joined: 18-Aug-2006 Location: The Llano Online Status: Offline Posts: 7392 |
Posted: 25-Sep-2011 at 19:37 |
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Yep good stuff.
The Sweeney referred to here is the author/Apache historian Edwin R. Sweeney. He is the recognized premier go to guy on Cochise.
But the most prominent researcher, historian and author on all things apacheria, imo, is Dan L. Trapp.
If your looking for an anthology of varying submissions then the work edited by
Peter Cozzens is the best out there.
See: Eyewitnesses to the Indian Wars 1865-1890 Volume One Struggle for Apacheria Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 25-Sep-2011 at 19:37 |
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
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