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Is France trying to cover up its dark past in the classrooms?

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  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is France trying to cover up its dark past in the classrooms?
    Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 08:06
 French angry at law to teach glory of colonialism

Jon Henley in Paris
Friday April 15, 2005

Guardian

More than 1,000 historians, writers and intellectuals have signed a petition demanding the repeal of a new law requiring school history teachers to stress the "positive aspects" of French colonialism.

"In retaining only the positive aspects of colonialism this law imposes an official lie on massacres that at times went as far as genocide on the slave trade, and on the racism that France has inherited," says the petition, which has also been signed by one of France's best-loved humourists, Guy Bedos, and a leading film director, Patrice Chreau.

The law of February 23 2005, as it is known, was intended to recognise the contribution of the "harkis", the 200,000 or so Algerians who fought alongside France's colonial troops in their country's war of independence, from 1954-62, before being abandoned to a dreadful fate when the French withdrew - about 130,000 were executed as traitors.

But an unnoticed amendment, apparently tabled by MPs with close ties to France's community of former Algerian settlers, added a new clause to the bill. It reads: "School courses should recognise in particular the positive role of the French presence overseas, notably in north Africa." Opponents are angry in part because, in the words of one eminent historian, Pierre Vidal-Naquet: "It is not up to the state to say how history should be taught."

Mr Vidal-Naquet told Liberation: "In Japan, a law defines the contents of history lessons, and textbooks minimise Japan's responsibility in the Sino-Japanese war. If France wants to be like that, it's going the right way about it."

Other leading historians said the need for such a law might be understandable in Germany but not in France. "It is imposing an official version of history, in defiance of educational neutrality," said one professor, Gerard Noiriel. "I cannot accept the authorities dictating to teachers the contents of their lessons."

But the principal objection to the law is simply that, like most forms of colonialism, the French empire caused great suffering. The anti-racist group MRAP said the law was "an insult to intelligence, a denial of democracy, a rejection of historical reality and a brake on academic freedom". Above all, it showed "contempt for the victims".

Laws governing how certain periods of history should be taught in French schools have been passed before: a 1990 law outlaws denial of the Holocaust, and a 2001 law dictates that the slave trade be described as a crime against humanity. But those episodes are unambiguous.

"The reality of the Holocaust and slave trade is self evident," said Thierry Le Bars, a law professor at Caen University, who has also signed the petition.

"It is by no means self evident that France's colonialism was positive. Think of the ignoble legal status of the Muslims in Algeria, of the massacre of up to 5,000 Algerians in Setif in 1945, of all the unfortunates who endured the hell of slavery to assure the prosperity of Caribbean islands."

The first of France's two empires began in the early 1600s in what are now Nova Scotia and Quebec. Louisiana had been added by the end of the century, as had Caribbean territories including French Guiana, Guadeloupe, Martinique and Saint-Domingue (now Haiti).

At the same time France got a foothold in west Africa (Senegal), and in India. Most of that empire was lost by 1815, but a second began in 1830 with the invasion of Algeria. Southern Vietnam and Cambodia followed, then, after the Franco-Prussian war of 1870-71, the rest of French Indochina, Tunisia and Morocco, and almost all of western and central Africa.

Mr Noiriel said the law was "all the more dangerous" because of attempts by certain interest groups to "confiscate history for their own ends".

He added: "It can only contribute to a feeling of humiliation. It is directly opposed to the policy of integration the government claims to be implementing.

Guardian Unlimited Guardian Newspapers Limited 2005
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 08:45

well here is the honesty of the west

NOONE mentions  the 4 MILLION Algerians, murdered by the State Of France

NOONE mentions tells about another 4MILLION South-Eastern Asians, murdered by the U.S.

Anglo-American Massacre (The Bombardment Of Vengeance) of Dresden

Millions Of Africans dragged on roads of Colonialism by all the WEST.

Millions of Native-Americans genocided by the U.S.

%80 of natives murdered after the Spanish Invasions in Latin America

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  Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 08:51
Hey, you forgot us! The portuguese reintroduced slave trading in Europe, absent since the fall of Rome!

Edited by Frederick Roger
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  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 08:56

The Rwandans want to charge the French with complicity in the genocide there.  The French armed and encouraged tthe Hutus who were massacring the Tutsis

http://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=63&nu m=16352

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2005/02/six-rwandans-s ue-french-soldiers-for.php

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 09:32
Originally posted by YAFES

well here is the honesty of the west

NOONE mentions  the 4 MILLION Algerians, murdered by the State Of France

NOONE mentions tells about another 4MILLION South-Eastern Asians, murdered by the U.S.

Anglo-American Massacre (The Bombardment Of Vengeance) of Dresden

Millions Of Africans dragged on roads of Colonialism by all the WEST.

Millions of Native-Americans genocided by the U.S.

%80 of natives murdered after the Spanish Invasions in Latin America


What do you mean "no-one"? Most of these 'incidents' are taught on schools (exept from the Algerians, which seems to be highly exaggerated).
Please think twice before you make such an evidenceless claim.

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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 09:32
Originally posted by YAFES

wellhere is the honesty of the west



NOONE mentions tells about another 4MILLION South-Eastern Asians, murdered by the U.S.




Yes, they do (that number seems exaggerated though - you can't count combatants as murder if you want to keep your objectivity).


Anglo-American Massacre (The Bombardment Of Vengeance) of Dresden



Yes, they do.


Millions Of Africans dragged on roads of Colonialism by allthe WEST.



Yes, they do.

Millions of Native-Americans genocided by the U.S.



Yes, they do.


%80 of natives murdered after the Spanish Invasionsin Latin America


Yes they do (most weren't murdered though, the diseases were the major criminal).

Anything else you want to rant about?

Edited by Styrbiorn
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 09:46
Originally posted by YAFES

well here is the honesty of the west

NOONE mentions  the 4 MILLION Algerians, murdered by the State Of France

NOONE mentions tells about another 4MILLION South-Eastern Asians, murdered by the U.S.

Anglo-American Massacre (The Bombardment Of Vengeance) of Dresden

Millions Of Africans dragged on roads of Colonialism by all the WEST.

Millions of Native-Americans genocided by the U.S.

%80 of natives murdered after the Spanish Invasions in Latin America



Don't know much about this strange 'west' you speak of do you?
And last i checked, a big chunk of this west wasn't involved in Africa.
Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 10:06

Its quite interesting how some westerners claim the alleged genocide in North Africa is exaggerated in order to undermine French atrocities in the region but when the issue of the civil war in Anatolia comes up they either are silent or even claim a figure of 1,500,000 plus for the Armenian victims.  A number that is obviously exaggerated since there werent even that many Armenians.  And in a final act of chauvinism they have the audacity to talk about objectivity. LOL

The west does seem strange.

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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 10:13
Originally posted by AyKurt

Its quite interesting how some westerners claim the alleged genocide in North Africa is exaggerated in order to undermine French atrocities in the region but when the issue of the civil war in Anatolia comes up they either are silent or even claim a figure of 1,500,000 plus for the Armenian victims. A number that is obviously exaggerated since there werent even that many Armenians. And in a final act of chauvinism they have the audacity to talk about objectivity. LOL


The west does seem strange.



I mentioned objectivity, but said nothing about the other. We aren't some bloody Collective.

Edited by Styrbiorn
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 10:22
I was under the impression that most westerners couldn't give a damn about Armenia.
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  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 11:01

OK maybe i was unfair in generalising, i was just letting out some anger after reading all the Armenian threads where the conduct of some of the contributors is obviously unobjective. 

maybe i got pissed when reading about how one should be "objective" when we discuss Europeans but when it comes to the Turks everyone is quick to accuse with little or no understanding of what happened.

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 11:13
Armenian threads, like the Cyprus threads, are something of an embarrising AE tradition, unfortunatly.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 22:29

most but not all westerners on this site would not deny the crimes of their nations past, it seems on AE its usually the non western nations that are more likely to deny their past.

ALong that same vein France is not doing anything that Japan doesnt do, orIndonesia.  Burundi probably doesnt also teach its children its dirty little paty in Rwandan racial war (the opposite but still just as evil side of the Tutsis) , Madagascar probably doesnt teach about the persecution of Christians in th e1850s-

People dont like their past, in the US we both acknowledge and deny our evils depending ont he issue.  We certainly spend alot of time acknowledging slavery and racism, yet most schools dont tell the full story of westward expansion, and certainly most if not all schools in the US would not mention what we did int he Phillippines against innocent people and of course our Vietnam history is at least somewhat whitewashed.  For example the unpopulararity of the war and the casualties are nto downplayed but the actions both sides took against citizens that was cruel is hardly given a mention.

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  Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2005 at 03:43
There are no reliable stats on the Algerian war. I don't think anyone can affirm there was 4 milions of casualties Algerian side.

I also don't think giving the positive side means hiding its dark side. The thread title is obviously not the most relevant one, yet it's obvious than the discussion here is biased.

What I regret about French teaching, is we don't devellop the history of the colonised countries (apart the Vietnam war of the USA)  after the end of the empire. People should know what the Algerian or Vietnamese government were (still are).


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  Quote The Golden Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2005 at 17:28
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Originally posted by YAFES

well here is the honesty of the west



NOONE mentions tells about another 4MILLION South-Eastern Asians, murdered by the U.S.




Yes, they do (that number seems exaggerated though - you can't count combatants as murder if you want to keep your objectivity).


Anglo-American Massacre (The Bombardment Of Vengeance) of Dresden



Yes, they do.


Millions Of Africans dragged on roads of Colonialism by all the WEST.



Yes, they do.

Millions of Native-Americans genocided by the U.S.



Yes, they do.


%80 of natives murdered after the Spanish Invasions in Latin America


Yes they do (most weren't murdered though, the diseases were the major criminal).

Anything else you want to rant about?

I'm sorry but not enough enphasize is put upon these points in western education. We still learn in school that all germans were evil in w.w.2 and the question if allies commited any war atrocities is not even conceived. The true effects of colonialism and it's long run effects are not taught in school and the fact that millions (that's right my swedish friend, MILLIONS) of africans and asians died throughout these years of repression is not even mentionned. Matter of fact most ppl here believe that colonialism was just starting a new country and then peacefully leaving it be once it could manage itself. The African colonies weren't "colonies" in the actual sense of the word; they were territorial and demographic pocessions to be manipulated at will by the master western nation. 

If the western nations truly wanted to recognize these terrible moments in history they would give more advanced teaching of these issues in school which they do not do and accept that it was a crime instead of just half heartedly acknowledging it happenned and not thinking another moment about it.



Edited by The Golden Phallanx
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2005 at 22:10
Are you an expert on Swedish schools then? All 'western' schools? Or just Canadian ones in particular?

Most UK schools now have a month a year in secondary school dedicated to specificly to the Empire from the African/Asian standpoint (for several years now), and WWII coverage is pretty in depth too.
IB history (which tends to focus alot on WWII and the cold war) looks at things from both sides, as it is particulary conerned not so much with teaching history, as it is teaching how to learn about history from historical sources. And in Dutch class we covered Max Havelaar (which looks at Dutch colonial misrule), though technicly not compulsory at B level, as the language is fairly old and wierd.
Of course, that was my 'western' education, maybe yours was different.
Though i'd stress that treating all of the 'west' as a singluar entity as far as education is concerned, to ot misled. Different countries have different educational systems, standards, and different histories to cover.


Edited by Cywr
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2005 at 11:54
Originally posted by The Golden Phallanx


I'm sorry but not enough enphasize is put upon these points in western education. We still learn in school that all germans were evil in w.w.2 and the question if allies commited any war atrocities is not even conceived. The true effects of colonialism and it's long run effects are not taught in school and the fact that millions (that's right my swedish friend, MILLIONS) of africans and asians died throughout these years of repression is not even mentionned. Matter of fact most ppl here believe that colonialism was just starting a new country and then peacefully leaving it be once it could manage itself.The African coloniesweren't "colonies" in the actual sense of the word; they were territorial and demographic pocessions to be manipulated at willby the master western nation.


If the western nations truly wanted to recognize these terrible moments in history they would give more advanced teaching of these issues in school which they do not do and accept that it was a crime instead of just half heartedly acknowledging it happenned and not thinking another moment about it.



Wherever you have studied you simply cannot extrapolate that to "Western education". Here for example, the Imperialism has a relatively large part of the history study and is recognized as unrighteous, and the terror bombing of Dresden is also mentioned in the text books.

That being said, history is not the study of Bad Things We Did In The Past, but the study on the development of human society, the flow of history, Why <insert your nation here> And The World Looks Like It Does. Sure, the bad things are a part of it, but it is far from the most important thing. What happened in Algeria is quite irrelevant from that point of why, except for France and Algeria itself.

There is no need for us to spend our time studying that, or generally fret about the atrocities of the past - recognize it, don't do it again and be done with it. For example, in Scandinavia there are no real grudges between the countries. Our great-great-great-parents used to hack each other to splinters, but why should we bother with that? So the Danes fell rampaging and raping through Smland four hundred years ago in the Kalmar War, and the Swedes looted their way through Poland and Germany, that is taught, but why dwell on it further? Why should we feel bad about that, or be angry at the living Danes? We didn't do it, and they didn't either. Many claim history is studied to learn and avoid the mistakes of the past, but all to many seem obsessed with finding some imaginary hatred for other people. *, I digress.
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  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2005 at 03:25

The crimes against humanity that have been perpetrated by French at Rwanda sould be invastigated as soon as possible. 

Do you know if France has been sentenced by international court or in United Nations because of sunk of Green Peace ship by two French secret agents?  They have killed one green peace member since they were protesting France's nuclear tests in Pacific.

Between 1966 and 1996, France exploded 178 nuclear bombs at Moruroa Atoll and nearby Fangataufa. 137 ground and 41 in the atmosphere bombs have been detonated, causing irreparable damage to the atoll and leaking radioactive contaminants into the seawater and atmosphere.

There are people who were living in those areas. Isn't it a genocide? France's nuclear tests also effected the world's athmosphere. This is a clear example of France's colonial mind. Will they teach their child this egoism and continous crimes against humanity?

France killed nature and also killed people who were trying to protect the nature and people.

Do you want to know who are Major Alain Mafart and Captain Dominique Prieur, members of the French armed forces? You can make a google search.  

I did it for you.   http://www.google.com.tr/search?hl=tr&q=Major+Alain+Mafa rt+and+Captain+Dominique+Prieur&btnG=Ara&meta =

To remember Fernando Pereira, photographer.................

 



Edited by Alparslan
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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2005 at 03:36
Originally posted by Styrbiorn



There is no need for us to spend our time studying that, or generally fret about the atrocities of the past - recognize it, don't do it again and be done with it. For example, in Scandinavia there are no real grudges between the countries. Our great-great-great-parents used to hack each other to splinters, but why should we bother with that? So the Danes fell rampaging and raping through Smland four hundred years ago in the Kalmar War, and the Swedes looted their way through Poland and Germany, that is taught, but why dwell on it further? Why should we feel bad about that, or be angry at the living Danes? We didn't do it, and they didn't either. Many claim history is studied to learn and avoid the mistakes of the past, but all to many seem obsessed with finding some imaginary hatred for other people.


Well said.
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  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2005 at 03:02

But France is responsable of cultural imperialism and they want to show it as "good colonial time". They are using their colonies as nuclear test areas, almost all native people in their colonies have lost their languages and doctrinated by Franchophonic ideas. They are active in Ivory Coast and they destroyed poor Ivory Coast air forces composed of 2 air plamnes and a few helicopter. They are active in Rwanda and millions have been killed by French supported troops.

Who will ask the bill for all those crimes commited by France? It seems clear that the regime in France should be rehabilitated as soon as possible or they will create more problems on world peace. 

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