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Can't find medieval depictions of the Colosseum

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Can't find medieval depictions of the Colosseum
    Posted: 04-Jan-2014 at 22:47
Maps in the referenced thread date from the 1300s and the early 1400s, long before your 1457 identification. Here is the map of Rome from 1334, which shows the Colosseum;

Damn, I just do not know how to transfer things!

Please help me?

Ron
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2014 at 05:12
Originally posted by opuslola

Dear Sidney, you have responded so well to many of my questions that I wonder why you suddenly have problems?

Earlier you posted this;

"Maps in the referenced thread date from the 1300s and the early 1400s, long before your 1457 identification. Here is the map of Rome from 1334, which shows the Colosseum; "

And after I asked for some connection to it, you responded that you had already given me the needed information. But, for some reason or another I seem to have missed the necessary connections to the book that you could not deem relative to this discussion to purchase. Thus, I proposed that I might well purchase said book, and again asked for the source, and again I have yet to see the provenance of the over view of Rome that you above presented.

Regards, Ron

Sorry, opuslola. I entirely missed the post where you asked for the book. There is no problem. I have already done what you asked, but you failed to notice!!

If you follow the link that I provided on the other thread, guess what you will find? Answer - An online version of the very book you are claiming I'm failing to provide you with. If you have not followed the link, here it is again - http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft4f59n96q;chunk.id=0;doc.view=print. Look down the page and you'll find illustrations, including the map I posted. Just to clarify for you, the book is "Rome before Avignon" by Robert Brentano.



Edited by Sidney - 05-Jan-2014 at 05:15
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2014 at 05:30
Originally posted by opuslola

And, Sidney you again refer to the Pashal dates and the Easter Dates! I see almost no difference! This date, or these datings, are at the cornerstone of our modern dating of past events! That is my opinion and that of the Fomenko Group, for sure.

So, why do you continue to argue about one or the other? Either way, they are the dates that connect most everything from the ancient past to the modern times! That is my most humble opinion.

Regards, Ron

I think we are at cross purposes over what I am asking you to clarify. I will try to reword it.

When you talk about the date of Easter/Paschal, are you referring to the calendar date (the day of the year that it falls on), or are you referring to the chronological date (the year in history)?

Both have been controversial issues. Which one is pivotal to your theory that history is wrong?

Easter Sunday falls on April 20th this year.

Edited by Sidney - 05-Jan-2014 at 05:34
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2014 at 15:45
Sorry I have not responded earlier, I have been very busy.

The date is question is the day, month and year of the death and resurrection Of Jesus the Christ. I seem to have read that various brains of the past worked very hard on this issue since there seem to have been certain astronomical events that can be computed using astronomy and the necessary mathematical computations.

And it was this computation that the first unified chronology of the European past was written. This first real unified chronology was composed by Joseph Iustus Scaliger and refined by Petavius.

See; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Justus_Scaliger

And; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petavius


With a number of small tweaks it remains mostly the view of the past that we read about today.

And thanks for the hyper-link! But I only got it in the PDF format, which means it was in Black and White and not colour. And,as well, it remains much to small to make out much detail. Perhaps I can actually get the original book via Intra Library loan/

Thanks again for being so gracious and doing so much.

Ron http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Justus_Scaliger

Edited by opuslola - 07-Jan-2014 at 15:19
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2014 at 15:27
Cheers for the explanation.

I am under the impression that unified chronologies were nothing original. Rashid-al Din, St.Jerome and Herodotus spring to mind.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2014 at 15:44
Herodotus? From wikipedia; "Just as Homer drew extensively on a tradition of oral poetry, sung by wandering minstrels, so Herodotus appears to have drawn on an Ionian tradition of story-telling, collecting and interpreting the oral histories he chanced upon in his travels. These oral histories often contained folk-tale motifs and demonstrated a moral, yet they also contained substantial facts relating to geography, anthropology and history, all compiled by Herodotus in an entertaining style and format.[17]"

There only exists suspected fragments of his works, and the rest is merely supposition!
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2014 at 15:48
Rashid-al Din! From wikipedia; Calligraphy Workshop: Rab' i-Rashidi[edit]

The work was executed at the elaborate scriptorium Rab'-e Rashidi at Qazvin, where a large team of calligraphers and illustrators were employed to produce lavishly illustrated books. These books could also be copied, while preserving accuracy, using a printing process imported from China.
Hulagu with his Christian queen Dokuz Khatun. Hulagu conquered Muslim Syria, in collaboration with Christian forces from Cilician Armenia, Georgia, and Antioch. From Rashid al-Din's work.
The work was at the time of completion, c. 1307, of monumental size. Several sections have not survived or been discovered. Portions of the Jami al-Tawarikh survive in lavishly illustrated manuscripts, believed to have been produced during his lifetime and perhaps under his direct supervision at the Rab'-e Rashidi workshop.[citation needed]

Historiographical significance[edit]

Volumes II and III of the Jami al-Tawarikh have survived and are of great importance for the study of the Il-Khanate. Volume II is an account of the successors of Genghis Khan while volume III describes the Ilkhanid Dynasty. In his narration down to the reign of Möngke (1251–1259), Juvayni was Rashid al-Din's main source; however, he also utilized numerous now-lost Far Eastern and other sources. The Jami' al-Tawarikh is perhaps the single most comprehensive Persian source on the Mongol period.

For the period of Genghis Khan, his sources included the now lost Altan Debter (Golden Book), and historians find by comparison with material that survives in Chinese sources that he made good use of the source.[citation needed] His treatment of the Ilkhanid period seems to be biased, as he himself was a high official, yet it is still seen as the most valuable written source for the dynasty."

Again very little information concerning this Jewish historian remain, most of the rest is conjectural at best.


Edited by opuslola - 07-Jan-2014 at 15:49
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2014 at 16:00
And, I would suggest St. Jerome can be accurately portrayed in this representation; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Workshop_of_Pieter_Coecke_van_Aelst,_the_elder_-_Saint_Jerome_in_His_Study_-_Walters_37256.jpg

Which is probably the time that he lived.

You see my dear Sidney, that whenever very ancient personages have such long pedigrees or confirmed times, as opposed to those who reportedly lived a thousand years closer to our times, who have meager histories, and pedigrees, then something is wrong!!

Perhaps Plato, Plethon, Plotinus is a good example?

Please read this series of postings?

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28856

Regards, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 07-Jan-2014 at 16:06
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2014 at 18:48
Originally posted by opuslola

And, I would suggest St. Jerome can be accurately portrayed in this representation; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Workshop_of_Pieter_Coecke_van_Aelst,_the_elder_-_Saint_Jerome_in_His_Study_-_Walters_37256.jpg

Which is probably the time that he lived.

You see my dear Sidney, that whenever very ancient personages have such long pedigrees or confirmed times, as opposed to those who reportedly lived a thousand years closer to our times, who have meager histories, and pedigrees, then something is wrong!!

Perhaps Plato, Plethon, Plotinus is a good example?

Please read this series of postings?

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28856

Regards, Ron


I'll read the postings later, but I'm firstly surprised that you think that the painting below (the one you reference) accurately portrays St.Jerome as he lived in the mid 16th Century;


Depictions of St.Jerome in his study have a long history.
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2014 at 19:27
Originally posted by Sidney


Depictions of St.Jerome in his study have a long history.

I won't post a long list of image showing how frequently the subject is portrayed, but here is one from c.1500;


And another one, by Antonio de Fabriano. Notice the painting is dated 1451?


Here is one by Cecco de Pietro, from c.1390;


And here is Jerome in his study by Giotto di Bondone, 1290-95;


There are others, but do you see my disbelief? And these are just images of Jerome in his study.
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2014 at 19:42
And there is also Steinwick's painting from 1630:

Judging by the setting, Jerome clearly lived in the 17th Century!?

Artists often represent people in a context that their contemporary viewer would understand; containing symbolism and meaning shared at the time of painting between painter and audience. Placing historical people in anachronistic settings and clothing was not unusual. These images are not photos of an event or attempts at accurate historical reconstructions, but are portrayals of an idea that is communicated through stock mediums understood within the culture they were generated for.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2014 at 20:32
Just look at the book! It is most modern it is, is it not?

Ron

Edited by opuslola - 07-Jan-2014 at 20:33
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2014 at 20:41
Sidney, what wonderful representations, but I am afraid I give no plus points for timeliness!

Thus your words:
"Artists often represent people in a context that their contemporary viewer would understand; containing symbolism and meaning shared at the time of painting between painter and audience. Placing historical people in anachronistic settings and clothing was not unusual. These images are not photos of an event or attempts at accurate historical reconstructions, but are portrayals of an idea that is communicated through stock mediums understood within the culture they were generated for."

I will give the above paragraph a 2 out of ten! That is, there is a 20% chance that you shall be proven correct!

The words written above were done so to correct scenes that could not be correctly or in my opinion incorrectly placed in the distant past.

Ron

Edited by opuslola - 07-Jan-2014 at 22:09
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2014 at 20:49
But, boy o" You present some great goods!

Could you provide a presentation like those above that presents Caesar wearing the armour of the Fleur di Lys?

Look hard and long for this one?

Regards, Ron
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2014 at 16:00
Originally posted by opuslola

Just look at the book! It is most modern it is, is it not?

Ron


Which book?
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2014 at 16:07
Originally posted by opuslola

Sidney, what wonderful representations, but I am afraid I give no plus points for timeliness!

Thus your words:
"Artists often represent people in a context that their contemporary viewer would understand; containing symbolism and meaning shared at the time of painting between painter and audience. Placing historical people in anachronistic settings and clothing was not unusual. These images are not photos of an event or attempts at accurate historical reconstructions, but are portrayals of an idea that is communicated through stock mediums understood within the culture they were generated for."

I will give the above paragraph a 2 out of ten! That is, there is a 20% chance that you shall be proven correct!

The words written above were done so to correct scenes that could not be correctly or in my opinion incorrectly placed in the distant past.

Ron

So how come my images show Jerome in settings dateable from the 14th to the 17th Centuries? You are dismissing the concept of artistic history and symbolism.

Edited by Sidney - 08-Jan-2014 at 16:12
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2014 at 16:11
Originally posted by opuslola

But, boy o" You present some great goods!

Could you provide a presentation like those above that presents Caesar wearing the armour of the Fleur di Lys?

Look hard and long for this one?

Regards, Ron

Could you give me an example to set the ball rolling?

Edited by Sidney - 08-Jan-2014 at 16:16
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2014 at 16:15
Originally posted by opuslola

Herodotus? From wikipedia; "Just as Homer drew extensively on a tradition of oral poetry, sung by wandering minstrels, so Herodotus appears to have drawn on an Ionian tradition of story-telling, collecting and interpreting the oral histories he chanced upon in his travels. These oral histories often contained folk-tale motifs and demonstrated a moral, yet they also contained substantial facts relating to geography, anthropology and history, all compiled by Herodotus in an entertaining style and format.[17]"

There only exists suspected fragments of his works, and the rest is merely supposition!

As the quote above says, Herodotus' work "contained substantial facts relating to geography, anthropology and history". I'm glad we agree.
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2014 at 17:02
Originally posted by opuslola

Rashid-al Din! From wikipedia; Calligraphy Workshop: Rab' i-Rashidi[edit]

The work was executed at the elaborate scriptorium Rab'-e Rashidi at Qazvin, where a large team of calligraphers and illustrators were employed to produce lavishly illustrated books. These books could also be copied, while preserving accuracy, using a printing process imported from China.
Hulagu with his Christian queen Dokuz Khatun. Hulagu conquered Muslim Syria, in collaboration with Christian forces from Cilician Armenia, Georgia, and Antioch. From Rashid al-Din's work.
The work was at the time of completion, c. 1307, of monumental size. Several sections have not survived or been discovered. Portions of the Jami al-Tawarikh survive in lavishly illustrated manuscripts, believed to have been produced during his lifetime and perhaps under his direct supervision at the Rab'-e Rashidi workshop.[citation needed]

Historiographical significance[edit]

Volumes II and III of the Jami al-Tawarikh have survived and are of great importance for the study of the Il-Khanate. Volume II is an account of the successors of Genghis Khan while volume III describes the Ilkhanid Dynasty. In his narration down to the reign of Möngke (1251–1259), Juvayni was Rashid al-Din's main source; however, he also utilized numerous now-lost Far Eastern and other sources. The Jami' al-Tawarikh is perhaps the single most comprehensive Persian source on the Mongol period.

For the period of Genghis Khan, his sources included the now lost Altan Debter (Golden Book), and historians find by comparison with material that survives in Chinese sources that he made good use of the source.[citation needed] His treatment of the Ilkhanid period seems to be biased, as he himself was a high official, yet it is still seen as the most valuable written source for the dynasty."

Again very little information concerning this Jewish historian remain, most of the rest is conjectural at best.

Wikipedia's lack of an adequately detailed entry on Rashid-al Din does not mean that little information is known about this person.

This book contains a potted, but much better, history of Rashid-al Din's political career;
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=N7_4Gr9Q438C&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=Rashid-al-Din+Hamadani+poison&source=bl&ots=HZ2EAQag5q&sig=g1bSWmAOJric4UksDeBnilS6_NE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bMXNUrX8J63y7AbQ0YH4Dg&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Rashid-al-Din%20Hamadani%20poison&f=false

This book gives a wider picture of Rashid-al Din's life;
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3NZpbDOSAcQC&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=sultaniyya+rashid-al&source=bl&ots=8HAztVjW0C&sig=c5REJPNH57_hGJqIxYfUXOedk4o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=L8nNUty6BKOO7AbJsICwBA&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=sultaniyya%20rashid-al&f=false

I can add that he was the son of Imad al-Dawla ben Abu al-Khayr, and he himself had fourteen sons, eight of whom became governors of provinces, and whose lives and careers are known.

How much more information do you require?

Edited by Sidney - 08-Jan-2014 at 17:03
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2014 at 18:06
Originally posted by Sidney

Originally posted by opuslola

Just look at the book! It is most modern it is, is it not?

Ron


Which book?

Any of them shown above. Most all of them look almost identical to modern bindings, etc.

Ron
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