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Can't find medieval depictions of the Colosseum

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  Quote shokdee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Can't find medieval depictions of the Colosseum
    Posted: 08-Aug-2011 at 02:39
I've been looking at depictions of the tower of Babel.

http://babelstone.blogspot.com/2007/01/72-views-of-tower-of-babel.html
http://babelstone.blogspot.com/2008/12/72-more-views-of-tower-of-babel.html

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel


As you can see there are many detailed pictures of this Biblical event (and many interesting discussion points).

Some depictions reminded me of the famous Colosseum,  so I wanted to look at similar depictions of this large building. Since this structure had already been existing for hundreds of years by the time the depictions above were made, there should be plenty of material.

What a surprise! I can't find anything!
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Colosseum
Bernardo Bellotto (1721–1780) !! Thomas Cole (1801–1848) !!

Why didn't the Renaissance painters bother to make even a single depiction of this magnificent structure right on their doorstep?

Any ideas?

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  Quote shokdee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2011 at 06:13
Andre Parrot, in The Tower of Babel in Art (The Tower of Babel. Studies in Biblical Archaeology no. 2 ), notes the age of the oldest representation and comments;

This long delay before the theme made its appearance is surprising.

He continues that the topic had been a great source of inspiration for artists;
It is all the more astonishing, therefore, as Francois Fosca has pointed out, that we find no reference to it in the work of the 'four greatest 'innovators' of painting: Albrecht Durer, Raphael in the Stanze of the Vatican, Tintoretto and Rembrandt'. We might add Michelangelo, who could have followed up his Deluge and his Drunkenness of Noah in the Sistine Chapel with a brilliant panel devoted to the tower in the plain of Shinar.

So we have 2 puzzles already:
Why the "surprising" lack of earlier depictions?
Why the "astonishing" lack of depictions by some of the great painters?

But there are even more puzzles. Let me remind that:
 -  Mass production of Bibles did not occur until long after 1450
 - The Bible account in Genesis 11:1-9 is short on details, but one thing is clear, the tower was built from clay fired bricks. Verse 3 states; And they said to one another: 'Come now, let us make bricks, and fire them thoroughly'. And so they had bricks with which to build, and used bitumen for cement.

What immediately jumps out at me whilst looking at all the depictions (across time and space) is that they share a common structure!

To a lesser or greater degree they all contain the same components:
1- a low (2-3 story) structure.
2- some builders at the top, working on the structure
3- to the side a foreman
4- in the foreground, stone masons cutting stone
5- in the foreground, someone mixing cement
6- a way to get material to the top, often a step ladder

In fact you can trace the history of medieval technology in the depictions, from ladders to treadmill cranes, from shoulder-troughs to wheelbarrows.

But why do they all depict STONE MASONS, when the Bible clearly states they used clay - fired bricks?
 
Even more puzzling, how could artists at the same time, but in very different locations, all depict the same components, including the misplaced stone masons, BEFORE the Bible has been widely distributed?

Any ideas?
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2014 at 12:18

This an interesting question and there appears that there exists no modern explanation for the lack of representations.

The only explanation is not to be expected by any person who believes in the current chronology. That answer is that the Coliseum did not exist in the Middle Ages.

Anybody got a better idea?

Ron
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2014 at 18:14
Originally posted by shokdee

Why didn't the Renaissance painters bother to make even a single depiction of this magnificent structure right on their doorstep? Any ideas?

Originally posted by opuslola


This an interesting question and there appears that there exists no modern explanation for the lack of representations.

A simple answer could be that the OP didn't look hard enough.

Caspar Van Wittel (1653-1736), Jan Asselijn (1610-1652) and Jean Lemaire (1598-1659) produced images of the Colosseum.

Renaissance artists Giovanni Battista Naldini (1537-1591), Antonio Lafreri (1512-1577). Maerten van Heemskerck (1498-1574) and Jan Mabuse (1478-1532) also depicted the Colosseum.

Also look at the images/maps in this thread; http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34162&PN=1 - to see the Colosseum shown in the early 14th to late 15th Centuries.





Edited by Sidney - 02-Jan-2014 at 18:15
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2014 at 21:25

Why yes my dear Sidney, you are correct! But even with my 1457 CE identification we are really speaking of the "Late Middle Ages" and the Renaissance! I am sure that Shokdee intended to speak of the times preceding the Late Middle Ages! You do realize that some historians consider the entirety of these so called "Middle Ages" is about 1,000 years!

So give him a break, and find a representation from before 1,000 CE?, or even 1,300 CE? Smile!

This might well be a tough assignment, it is much like finding a description of one of the Great Pyramids in the same period!

You have seen my interactive world map, have you not?

Regards, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 02-Jan-2014 at 21:27
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2014 at 22:33
This might be one of the earliest depiction.

This type of coin was minted to commemorate the first games at the Colosseum, and handed out by the Roman Emperor Titus to the first spectators.  
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2014 at 23:02
Originally posted by opuslola


I am sure that Shokdee intended to speak of the times preceding the Late Middle Ages! You do realize that some historians consider the entirety of these so called "Middle Ages" is about 1,000 years!

The OP actually only specifies the Renaissance. I've pointed out that there are Renaissance depictions of the Colosseum. You are the one who has mentioned the Middle Ages, not the OP.

Maps in the referenced thread date from the 1300s and the early 1400s, long before your 1457 identification. Here is the map of Rome from 1334, which shows the Colosseum;


Here is a depiction of St.Ignatius being killed by lions in the Colosseum, from the Menologion of Basil II c.1000 AD.


Roman coin of Gordian III and earlier Emperors show images of the Colosseum too;

Gordian III c.240 AD


Severus Alexander 223 AD


Titus 80 AD


Edited by Sidney - 02-Jan-2014 at 23:04
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 20:29
My response to both of is this;

By just what known fact was each of the representations shown above derived from? That is, just what is the prime detail that indicates the age of these representations?

In other words, the coins and depictions shown above are based upon the certain reliance upon our consensually agreed upon chronology, which is certainly not agreed upon by either my self or the Fomenko Group.

Your answers are only based upon the chronology of Scaliger and Petavius, with small later revisions. If indeed you can find any fixed dates that are verifiable by modern means, that they used to build this great chronology, then please present it! Basically I feel it is mostly BS! And done to promote Christianity and the Church, since both of these persons were under the control of Rome.

And, it seems to me, that the dating of Easter is the most important date that was discerned by these men and others of the past. Therefor, all dates are related to the Christ!, and nothing more.

Regards,
Ron    
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 20:37
Sidney, you wrote above;

"Maps in the referenced thread date from the 1300s and the early 1400s, long before your 1457 identification. Here is the map of Rome from 1334, which shows the Colosseum; "

Can any other landmarks be identified on this image of Rome, like the Rotunda, it is too small for me. And just what does a blow up of
St. Peter's show? It is too small for me to make out. But, it seems similar to my 1457 site!

Could you give us a site or an enlarged image of the above?

Regards,
Ron

Edited by opuslola - 03-Jan-2014 at 20:46
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 22:02
Originally posted by opuslola


Your answers are only based upon the chronology of Scaliger and Petavius, with small later revisions. If indeed you can find any fixed dates that are verifiable by modern means, that they used to build this great chronology, then please present it! Basically I feel it is mostly BS! And done to promote Christianity and the Church, since both of these persons were under the control of Rome.

And, it seems to me, that the dating of Easter is the most important date that was discerned by these men and others of the past. Therefor, all dates are related to the Christ!, and nothing more.

Regards,
Ron    

How does the dating of Roman coins help promote Christianity?
How does dating Easter require a revision of history?
What do you mean by a 'fixed date'? Dates are arbitrary numbers used to label a sequence of events. Different cultures have different ways of expressing those labels. As such, a 'fixed date' in one culture/era might not be viewed as 'fixed' by another, or might be 'fixed' within a different context.

Edited by Sidney - 03-Jan-2014 at 22:11
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 22:10
Originally posted by opuslola

Sidney, you wrote above;

"Maps in the referenced thread date from the 1300s and the early 1400s, long before your 1457 identification. Here is the map of Rome from 1334, which shows the Colosseum; "

Can any other landmarks be identified on this image of Rome, like the Rotunda, it is too small for me. And just what does a blow up of
St. Peter's show? It is too small for me to make out. But, it seems similar to my 1457 site!

Could you give us a site or an enlarged image of the above?

Regards,
Ron

The image, although in black and white, is on the other thread at a slightly larger size. The Colosseum is visible and the Rotunda. To see it larger I'd have to purchase the book it appears in - something I'm not inclined to do. Sorry I can't help further.

Edited by Sidney - 03-Jan-2014 at 22:11
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 22:16
My Dear Sidney!

You ask such good questions and I thank you for them.

Firstly making one's religion very old does by itself promote it!

By my estimation, almost all dates are connected to the established date of Easter and no other. That includes ancient Egypt, Rome and the Near and Far East!

Easter is the only "fixed date" of the past! If you don't figure this out then you are mostly out! smile

"Fixed" really means that the dates you use today for events before the advent and wide usage of the Printing Press came into common usage, and most information after this was common has become "Fixed!"

OH! Sidney can you get a close-up look at St. Peter's? Just what does it resemble?

Regards, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 03-Jan-2014 at 22:23
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 22:28
Maps in the referenced thread date from the 1300s and the early 1400s, long before your 1457 identification. Here is the map of Rome from 1334, which shows the Colosseum;


In my close up examination of the image you presented to us, it seems that St. Peter's Basilica looks a lot like my 1457 representation!

Do you concur?

You do know my friend, that you do not have to purchase the book! Most books can be examined by inter-library loan, etc., besides I have access to a lot of stuff others cannot get.

So, my young friend, just what is the source of this great presentation of Roma?

Regards, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 03-Jan-2014 at 22:32
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 22:38
By 'Easter' do you mean the date of the movable Easter Festival each year, or do you mean the date of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection? I might be misunderstanding your use of the word.

The Roman coins are not Christian, therefore do not make 'ones religion' very old. The Colosseum was an achievement of pre-Christian Rome, to the glory of what are now called pagans.

I'm not understanding your reference to the printing press. Do you mean that a printed date is indisputable (ie the date of publication that appears printed on the paper)? What about hand written documents that are dated and sealed and predate the printing press?
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 23:25
You wrote; "I'm not understanding your reference to the printing press. Do you mean that a printed date is indisputable (ie the date of publication that appears printed on the paper)? What about hand written documents that are dated and sealed and predate the printing press?"

Actually hand written documents were especially desired by rich patrons in the 16th century! But, I am afraid that I believe most of them were fake! Sorry that is my true belief!

And yes the Paschal date is most important! Coins can be easily counterfeited and many have be found to be so. I do not trust the chronology seemingly confirmed by them since the dates of the rulers whose faces efface them was already determined based upon fictional material, lacking in facts!   
So where is that good view of Rome?

Regards, Ron
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2014 at 01:31
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2014 at 11:48
Originally posted by opuslola

Actually hand written documents were especially desired by rich patrons in the 16th century! But, I am afraid that I believe most of them were fake! Sorry that is my true belief!

And yes the Paschal date is most important! Coins can be easily counterfeited and many have be found to be so. I do not trust the chronology seemingly confirmed by them since the dates of the rulers whose faces efface them was already determined based upon fictional material, lacking in facts!   
So where is that good view of Rome?

Regards, Ron

Every work of print has to be based on a written version at some point, even if it is just the original manuscript that the author sends to the publisher, who then sends it to the proof reader, editor and type setters. Every source has its limitations.

Paschal date? Again - is this the feast date or the death of Jesus you are referring to? Replacing the word Easter with the word Paschal has not made this any clearer. The Christian feasts of Paschal and Easter are based on a lunar calendar, which means that the dates for each year varies every year. Establishing the correct day on which the Paschal full moon and the following Easter Sunday were celebrated was an important topic of debate for Christians for centuries, dividing the Syrian and Alexandrian Churches, and causing the suppression of the Celtic Church. Even today the Eastern Orthodox, the Western Catholics and the different Protestant religions can all celebrate Paschal and Easter on different dates in the same year. So I'm not sure whether your questioning of chronology relies on what day the festival is held, or whether you are referring to the year of Jesus' death. The context might suggest the latter, but knowing what a hot topic the Easter controversy has been over the centuries, I would like to clarify this.

Re. the view of Rome: - I have already told you that you have exhausted my resources (presented images, plus a web-link). I will happily post anything new that I find, but repeating the demand does not make it any easier to fulfill!!

Edited by Sidney - 04-Jan-2014 at 11:51
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2014 at 21:56
Dear Sidney, you have responded so well to many of my questions that I wonder why you suddenly have problems?

Earlier you posted this;

"Maps in the referenced thread date from the 1300s and the early 1400s, long before your 1457 identification. Here is the map of Rome from 1334, which shows the Colosseum; "

And after I asked for some connection to it, you responded that you had already given me the needed information. But, for some reason or another I seem to have missed the necessary connections to the book that you could not deem relative to this discussion to purchase. Thus, I proposed that I might well purchase said book, and again asked for the source, and again I have yet to see the provenance of the over view of Rome that you above presented.

Regards, Ron

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2014 at 22:03
Again, I am not computer literate enough to do a lot of things, but I do believe someone of you would be able to capture the image presented to us by Sidney and expand it for at least my use?

I would certainly appreciate it!!

Regards, Ron
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2014 at 22:07
And, Sidney you again refer to the Pashal dates and the Easter Dates! I see almost no difference! This date, or these datings, are at the cornerstone of our modern dating of past events! That is my opinion and that of the Fomenko Group, for sure.

So, why do you continue to argue about one or the other? Either way, they are the dates that connect most everything from the ancient past to the modern times! That is my most humble opinion.

Regards, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 04-Jan-2014 at 22:08
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