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EvilNed
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Topic: Pyrrhus Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 16:35 |
A question about Pyrrhus: He won many battles, but even he himself admitted that they weren't any great victories. So why, oh why, did Hannibal label him as the second greatest commander ever? Just to tease off Scipio, seeing as he was a roman? Or had the history in Carthage been "revised" to make it seem as if Rome was weaker than it actually was?
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J.M.Finegold
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Posted: 20-Apr-2005 at 18:31 |
Phyrrus was a genius tactician. He lost the wars he entered
because, unlike the Romans, he lacked determination. He defeated
Rome twice, lost the third time, and he left Italy as a defeated
general - he just didn't have what it took to persue his goals.
Much of the same happened in Sicily against the Carthaginians and
against Sicilian/Italian mercenary groups. However, we deserves
that place in Hannibal's list.
But in any case, Hannibal's list, and the entire meeting between
Hannibal and Scipio years after the Second Punic War is all myth and
purely conjectural. Whether it really happened might remain
unknown forever.
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Mosquito
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Posted: 20-Apr-2005 at 19:44 |
Pyrhus was for sure a brillant general. I would like to stress the fact that commanding hellenic type army required more skills than commanding roman/italic type army which was more universal. Hellenic army was more like combined arms including many different types of infantry (not only phalanx).
First problem in Pyrrhic history which i see is that he had always very limited resources. His kingdom wasnt big nor was rich (altough during his reign was changing its borders still was souronded by bigger and richer and thats why Pyrrhus was trying for so long to join richer and bigger Macedonia to his Epir). Romans/Italics were equiping themselves (every soldier was a citisen buying his own equipment and belonging to specified class) while hellenic armies were completelly armed and sposonsored by the kings. Carthaginians had way more monay than he had. Pyrhus usually had only this army which already raised and equiped, in case of loosing soldiers he didnt have many possibilities to get more, unless he was able to sack some temples or cities, getting some gold this way and hiring mercenaries.
The second problem i see is that he was launching campaigns without preparing good political background before. Was very fast in his decisions and it was probably the reason why he was failing so many times. Exactly the same situation happend in his Italian campaign. He decided to invade Italy with his small army because was told that half of the Italy will revolt against the Rome and support him, what didnt really happend. Altough with his limited forces he was marching up and down Italy and Romans didnt dare to stop him. Pyrrhus knew that he cant defeat Rome with his forces and he really didnt want to fight with Rome, since the begining was dreaming about Sicily and war against Carthago. But Romans were not going to tollerate invaders nor were going to let them build new kingdom in the southern Italy and Sicily, so allied with Carthaginians against him. And small Epir with its limited financial and human resources wasnt really an equal opponent for joined forces of Rome and Carthago. Greek cities in the southern Italy also werent reliable allies and as well as Romans didnt want Pyrhus to stay in Italy. In fact in every city was present proRoman faction .
Edited by Mosquito
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Yiannis
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Posted: 21-Apr-2005 at 08:10 |
Very good analysis by Mosquito. I just want to add that he lacked the determination as well as the resources. Southern Greek cities that invided him were divided and did not support him all the way. His victories were so costly in manpower (that he could not replenish fully) that the term "pyrrhic victory" has remained as synonymous of a victory that is gained at great cost.
Epirus lacked the manpower to amass a sizable force, so most of his soldiers were mercenaries... He died in Corinth by a brick dashed on his head by an old woman. Not a glorious death for sure.
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Mosquito
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Posted: 21-Apr-2005 at 15:06 |
Thank you Yannis, i really appreciate good words from such ancient history expert like you.
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Lannes
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Posted: 21-Apr-2005 at 21:41 |
Originally posted by Dux
Phyrrus was a genius tactician. |
I just can't see that. In his two biggest engagements (Heraclea and Asculum), he never showed any real tactical genius. In fact, at Herclea, he was rather sloppy. Granted, it was a saving decision to move to open ground at Asculum (but nothing to merit him as a tactical genius).
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τρέφεται δέ, ὤ Σώκρατης, ψυχὴ τίνι;
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EvilNed
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Posted: 24-Apr-2005 at 15:31 |
I don't know that much about Pyrrhus, but thankfully you do.
But I still can't see him as a great tactician, because his battles were nowhere near great. So how do you know he was a great tactician? He lost alot of men in his battles, which shows to me that he wasn't really that good of a commander.
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Perseas
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Posted: 24-Apr-2005 at 16:31 |
In the battle of Heraclea he defeated the Romans, primarily because of his war elephants and secondly due to his cavalry. There is a small story about this battle, Pyrrhus had arranged to change his clothes with one of his officers called Megacles. Romans while taking notice of the clothing of Megacles, they targeted him and killed him. Romans, as well as Pyrrhus soldiers, believed for a while that Pyrrhus himself had died and Pyrrhus had to ride with his horse, infront of his troops bareheaded to show that he still lived.
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Mosquito
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Posted: 24-Apr-2005 at 17:28 |
The problem is that most of relations about Pyrrhus were written by his enemies so are terribly biased and give no credit to him. But one should remember that Pyrrhus with the small army of about 20.000 soldiers terrorised both Rome and Carthago, defeated armies bigger than his having less casulaties than his enemies. Romans were able to raise new units and replace casualties but Pyrrhus didnt have such option. And those elephants shouldnt be demonised because Pyrrhus had only 20 and they were very old. The fact that he was able to use them to his advantage was due to his talent. Noone can claim that 20 old elephants made 30.000 Romans run away.
Edited by Mosquito
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Lannes
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Posted: 24-Apr-2005 at 18:55 |
Originally posted by Mosquito
But one should remember that Pyrrhus with the small army of about 20.000 soldiers terrorised both Rome and Carthago, defeated armies bigger than his having less casulaties than his enemies. |
We also can't forget that Pyrrhus's force at Malventum was actually larger than the Roman force (yet it still lost).
And those elephants shouldnt be demonised because Pyrrhus had only 20 and they were very old. The fact that he was able to use them to his advantage was due to his talent. Noone can claim that 20 old elephants made 30.000 Romans run away. |
The problem is, Romans didn't have any sophisticated means of turning back elephants at this point, and because of this, an elephant charge was devastating to them. At Malventum, the Romans proved that if elephants could be stopped, so to would the entire Epirote army collapse.
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τρέφεται δέ, ὤ Σώκρατης, ψυχὴ τίνι;
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Perseas
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Posted: 24-Apr-2005 at 19:24 |
Generally, armies who were using elephants could create extensive problems and most of the times some major defeats against the opposition. However, we have to keep in mind that using elephants during a battle could be transformed into a great dissadvantage. For example, in Heraclea, Pyrrhos elephants winded up and created panic among Roman lines, even driving roman cavalry upon to their troops but unfortunately for them, an injured elephant caused panic among the others and they turned back on Epirotes. We have many examples of this on battles. Same had happened in the battle between Alexander the Great and the Indian king Poros where his own elephants became one of the main reasons Poros lost the battle. Same happened in Zama, but that doesnt mean in any case that it happened in every battle. Elephants in all battles of that era, were a major headache for the opponent.
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Mosquito
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Posted: 24-Apr-2005 at 20:33 |
the story about wounded/killed elephant at Heraclea is not reliable. It comes from roman stories and wasnt confirmed by other sources. In the next battle Pyrrhus again had 20 elephants - what didnt stop some roman historians of telling us about brave roman soldier who sacrificied his life to kill an elephant.
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vulkan02
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Posted: 28-Apr-2005 at 00:03 |
Pyrrus was great but what makes him greater is that he was an Epirote,
an Illyrian tribe and Illyrians are the ancestors of todays Albanians
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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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Perseas
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Posted: 28-Apr-2005 at 06:33 |
Originally posted by vulkan02
Pyrrus was great but what makes him greater is that he was an Epirote, an Illyrian tribe and Illyrians are the ancestors of todays Albanians |
Wrong premises lead to wrong conclusions. Pyrrhus was a member of the Molossian royal house, called Aeacidae, and as it is known, they claimed descent from Achilles and they were also greeks.
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Phallanx
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Posted: 28-Apr-2005 at 23:43 |
vulkan02
How about explaining what kind of if any connection Pyrrus had to he
Illyrians and while you're at it, how about proving htat you are the
decendant of the Illyrians.
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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vulkan02
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Posted: 04-May-2005 at 14:34 |
there is really nothing at all to prove... if you look at Albanian language you'll find that 50 percent of it comes directly from Illyrian language... hence Albanian are two languages that dont have any connection with any other language group. The other 50 percent is Greek, Norman, Latin, Turkic etc because we were simply conquered for most of our history just like Armenians, Greeks, etc. Phyrrus had his own kingdom... unrelated to the Greeks, or the Macedonians and also he had close ties to an Illyrian king name Glaucus .... it was said that the kindgom was made up of southern Illyrian tribes. Besides this territory that Epirus was ... was later conqured by the most famous Illyrian king Agron. Sadly most of the sources that proves us to be of Illyrian decent have been destroyed in the south by the Greeks and in the North by the Slavs.
From Encyclopedia:
King Agron was the second king of Illyria, modern-day Albania, and the son of King Pleuratus. Agron's rule lasted from 250 to 230 BC. The Illyrians under Agron were at their height militarily, having the most powerful force, both by land and sea, relative to neighboring nations that they ever would have. His kingdom included much of Illyria proper, Epirus and the island of Corcyra. In 231 BC, Demetrius II, king of Macedon, pleaded to Agron for military aid against advancing Greek Aetolians. The Illyrian soldiers routed the Aetolians and returned home as victors. Agron, overjoyed with his success, drank so much wine that he died in 232 BC. His son Pinnes succeeded him and ruled officially (though never de facto) for thirteen years. His first wife and the mother of Pinnes was Queen Teuta.
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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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Molossos
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Posted: 07-May-2005 at 05:46 |
Nothing you claimed is true and the argument that Pyrrhus' people were of Illyrian origin is totally false. He was king of the Molossians, the strongest nation in the region of Epirus. The propaganda that Epirote tribes were Illyrian is weak since archaeological findings scattered throughout Epirus prove their pure Hellenic origin.
For example, the oracle of Dodona in the territory of the Molossians was one of the most respectable worship sites of the Greek world, dedicated to Dodonaios Zeus (Zeus of Dodona). All the inscriptions found there during excavations are Greek and written in a northwest Greek dialect, which is a subcategory of the Dorian lingual family.
But if linguistics is not enough to persuade you, we can take a look at ancient sources regarding historical and ethnological issues. So, according to Diodorus of Sicily at 15, 13: "The Illyrians...came down to Epirus and established Alcetas as king of the Molossians...after those events the Molossians resisted and a great battle was fought, in which the victorious Illyrians slaughtered more than 15000 Molossians". The translation is mine since I couldn't find an English one but I assure you it is correct since I understand easily texts of the koine Greek language.
My main questions are two: 1) How come Molossians, the nation of Pyrrhus, were an Illyrian tribe since we see clearly the distinction in the passage between "Illyrioi" and "Molottoi"? 2) Moreover, if the glorious Hellenic nation of Molossis was of Illyrian stock, why would Diodorus mention that Illyrians invaded Epirus? (again we see a clear distinction of geographical nature this time).
But after all, let's see what Pyrrhus himself had to say about Greeks and "barbarians" (non Greeks). According to Plutarch's biography of the great Greek king, he is supposed to comment on the marching army of consul Laevinus as follows: "Megacles, this formation of barbarians is not barbarian, but we will see their acts" (16, 7-8). I must remind you that only a Greek would have described Romans as "barbarians" in the 3rd century BC.
Please try not to make such mistakes and avoid propaganda because you might offend other peoples' past and heritage.
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vulkan02
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Posted: 07-May-2005 at 10:26 |
Propaganda? there is not a nation in the whole of Europe thats involved
in that more than Greece. Greece is the only country as far as i know
that does not recognize any other nationalities other than its own in
its soil. Epirus might have liked the Greek Ideas but they were far
from being Greek. Phyrrus fought Aetolian Greeks, in fact he was killed
by a Greek woman when he entered a conquered Greek city. It
doesn't mean anything when you say Illyrians fought Molossians,
Illyrian tribes fought each other too, only a few kings, Bardhyllus
(means White Star in Albanian), Agron, Teauta were able to unite these
tribes. Its clear the Epirotes were not Greek, nor was Alexander and he
didn't really care about Helleniztion. If you wanna get the facts go to
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/. Althought the present day
Macedonians dont have any connection at all with the ancient ones as
they had their own language, culture etc.
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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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Perseas
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Posted: 07-May-2005 at 10:47 |
Even if i dont want to enter in your currect discussion about Epirus, i couldnt stop laughing while you are talking about propaganda and paste the link of one of the most well-known propagandistic site in the net aka http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ to support your claims.
At least can you back up your claims founded in this quote "Its clear the Epirotes were not Greek, nor was Alexander and he didn't really care about Helleniztion" or all your claims about Alexander are taken as well from the above site???
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TheodoreFelix
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Posted: 07-May-2005 at 12:10 |
Epirus was hellenized, Alexander did care about hellenism and is very
easily evident. Enough of this macedonia.org propaganda crap.
Edited by Iskender Bey ALBO
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