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Sparta: the Nazis of the ancient world
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okamido View Drop Down
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Posts: 302 		  Quote okamido Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sparta: the Nazis of the ancient world
    Posted: 14-Aug-2012 at 23:31
Originally posted by Nick1986

The bones of infants are more fragile than those of adults, hence less likely to survive. Perhaps they are buried deep beneath landslides, or in crevasses that have since been blocked?
C'mon, Nick...you're really reaching now. Tongue
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Posts: 541 		  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2012 at 00:05
Heyo okamido.
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 19:38
Okamido, just because something's not there doesn't mean it didn't happen. The Nazis burned the bodies of many Jews to destroy the evidence, so who's to say the Spartans didn't do the same?
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Posts: 541 		  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 19:46
Cremated infant remains have been found at several sites.
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Posts: 873 		  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2012 at 13:54
Maybe part of the problem is that we in the West think of the Greeks as scholars, inventors, philosophers and the creators of Democracy.  The Spartans were a totalitarian society of warriors, completely at odds with what we were taught.

However, this was a time of city-states, and Sparta was determined to remain independent; thus, it could call upon every able bodied man to become a trained warrior in time of need, which must have given some pause to the other city states.

The comparison with Nazi practices, including the practice of eugenics, is particularly apt, but it present in a lot of totalitarian societies.  No one, anywhere, had much compassion for the deformed or feeble minded at birth who were considered to be cursed by the gods, and no one wanted those curses to be passed down to another generation.  All of Greece worshipped physical perfection.

By all accounts, however, the Spartans were the most hardcore of the Greek societies.  OTH, they are undoubtedly the only ones who could have held the Persians back at the pass.
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2012 at 19:32
Some good points there. The Nazis were also intent on returning Germany to "independence" from the restrictions of the Treaty of Versailles. Both Germany and Sparta were in a perpetual state of emergency: if they weren't preparing for war they were fighting
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Posts: 541 		  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2012 at 19:37
Comparing Nazi Germany to Sparta is non sensical. To large of a culture and time gap.
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Posts: 1130 		  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2012 at 03:14
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Comparing Nazi Germany to Sparta is non sensical. To large of a culture and time gap.


I agree. This argument is so mediatic, not historical. If we use the term Nazi for Sparta, What we suppose to use for Athens? God Damn İmperialist Athens
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Posts: 480 		  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2012 at 15:08
Sparta didn't try to conquer Europe so, I don't see any parallel....
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2012 at 19:22
Originally posted by TITAN_

Sparta didn't try to conquer Europe so, I don't see any parallel....

What about their aggression, militarism, indoctrination, totalitarianism, ingrained discrimination, and preference for brute strength over intelligence?
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Posts: 302 		  Quote okamido Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2012 at 00:16
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Heyo okamido.
Hey, Delenda.
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Posts: 302 		  Quote okamido Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2012 at 00:20
Originally posted by Nick1986

Okamido, just because something's not there doesn't mean it didn't happen. The Nazis burned the bodies of many Jews to destroy the evidence, so who's to say the Spartans didn't do the same?
Why do you so badly want to equate the Spartans to the Nazis? They aren't even close.
 
Secondly, think of the fact that there is only one person who ever mentioned this, and it was done anectodetly. That individual was Plutarch, and it is well known that he has made a great many mistakes in describing Sparta. Why then is he the only person, when there are so many others that spoke about Sparta and her institutions? Where is the commentary of this practice by Herodotus, Xenophon, Thucydides, Plato and Aristotle?
 
In fact, the prevelant thought currently, is that 'unfit' babies were actually given to helots in order to be raised as mothakes, so that they could still serve with the perioikoi after they reached adulthood.


Edited by okamido - 22-Aug-2012 at 00:25
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Posts: 302 		  Quote okamido Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2012 at 00:21
Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by TITAN_

Sparta didn't try to conquer Europe so, I don't see any parallel....

What about their aggression, militarism, indoctrination, totalitarianism, ingrained discrimination, and preference for brute strength over intelligence?
Can you give examples?
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Posts: 302 		  Quote okamido Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2012 at 00:22
Originally posted by Ollios

Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Comparing Nazi Germany to Sparta is non sensical. To large of a culture and time gap.


I agree. This argument is so mediatic, not historical. If we use the term Nazi for Sparta, What we suppose to use for Athens? God Damn İmperialist Athens
And let's not forget their selfish form of eugenics. The fact that they left unwanted daughters in jars on the hillside. Wink
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Posts: 480 		  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2012 at 06:59

Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by TITAN_

Sparta didn't try to conquer Europe so, I don't see any parallel....

What about their aggression, militarism, indoctrination, totalitarianism, ingrained discrimination, and preference for brute strength over intelligence?

Aggression? Compared to the Macedonians, Sparta was NOTHING. Wink
Militarism? Same as above
Regarding the rest, Spartans were not the only ancient society bearing those features... 
Moreover, Sparta was much more than just a military state. Confused
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2012 at 19:25
Originally posted by okamido

Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by TITAN_

Sparta didn't try to conquer Europe so, I don't see any parallel....

What about their aggression, militarism, indoctrination, totalitarianism, ingrained discrimination, and preference for brute strength over intelligence?
Can you give examples?

Sparta never produced any great artists, musicians or philosophers and (like the Nazis) suppressed the arts as degenerate. Their treatment of the Helots is very similar to Nazis with power over Jews in the death camps: a Spartan could murder a slave if he wished and was encouraged to do so. It's important we identify the forerunners of fascism to prevent the emergence of future hate groups and atrocities against other ethnic minorities
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Posts: 541 		  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2012 at 19:31
Spartans Nazis? Lets get real here.
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Posts: 302 		  Quote okamido Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2012 at 01:32
Originally posted by Nick1986


Sparta never produced any great artists, musicians or philosophers and (like the Nazis) suppressed the arts as degenerate. Their treatment of the Helots is very similar to Nazis with power over Jews in the death camps: a Spartan could murder a slave if he wished and was encouraged to do so.
Unfortunately, none of this is alltogether correct. Sparta was famous for its black/red pottery, it has one of the most famous poet/lyricist/singers in the form of Alcman, and the Dorians passed their customs, history, and laws down through dance and song. This doesn't seem like a great hatred of artistry. Why is there not much left behind besides what is in the Archaeological Museum of Sparta? Well, when your city is utterly destroyed by the Visigoths, with all surviving citizens sold into slavery, and the neighboring settlement of Mystras quarries what is left for over a thousand years, perhaps we get left with very little.
Here is a video of some items in the museum, however: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLL1Kz_LS2w
 
Now to the helots...wow. The treatment of the helots wasn't even close to what happened to the Jews in the holocaust, and to suggest that is really wrong. The helots were simply serfs, tied to the land, nothing more. The comment of Spartiates being able to murder helots on a whim, or to be encouraged to....is also incorrect. The 'war' on the helots that was declared annually was done to facilitate the 'doing-in' of any potential Spartacus wannabes. Harsh perhaps, but welcome to the ancient world.
It's important we identify the forerunners of fascism to prevent the emergence of future hate groups and atrocities against other ethnic minorities
I agree with you, but in this case, you are way off. I implore you to actually study their culture as it is fascinating and unique.......and a long way off from what you have been describing.
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2013 at 19:17
An interesting paper discussing Sparta's war on the Helots: the army were paid to pillage the countryside for the enrichment of the few elite families
http://www.123helpme.com/view.asp?id=27314

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Posts: 480 		  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2013 at 03:15
May I remind you that the US House of Representatives features a certain Spartan among the 20 most important law-givers of all times? 

Sparta's system of administration and government was a mix of oligarchy, democracy, socialism, militarism, republic, etc. etc. It was a very complex system and definitely the most sophisticated one, in the ancient history of Europe. 
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