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Nick1986
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Topic: Sparta: the Nazis of the ancient world Posted: 16-Jun-2011 at 19:12 |
Was ancient Sparta the first fascist state? In this militarised society children were taken from their parents and trained for war. There was a secret police that murdered troublemakers and most crimes were punished with death. Every subject lived and breathed for the state and a Nazi-like cult of death glorified death in battle. Unlike the Nazis, however, homosexuality was not only tolerated but encouraged: women seem to have served as baby-making factories to provide the next generation of warriors
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HerodAntipas
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Posted: 16-Jun-2011 at 22:04 |
It's an interesting analogy, and there are other parallels. Sparta vaunted "Dorian supremacy" over other Greek ethnic groups like the Ionians, and the Laconian and Messenian Helots (Sparta's agricultural slave population) were perhaps the original "untermenschen". Hitler himself certainly perceived parallels. After Stalingrad, he lamented that his soldiers lacked the courage of the Spartan 300 under Leonidas, and he even sought to "prove" that the Spartans were of German descent by pointing to the similarities between the Spartan national dish (a rancid black broth made from pig's blood) and a traditional stew popular in Schleswig-Holstein!
However, there are important differences. Unlike the Nazis, the Spartans (for all their bluster) were remarkably slow to go to war. Their militarized state was not a Roman-style conquest machine - it existed primarily to keep down the Helots, to maintain the privileged status of the Spartan minority in their own homeland. Thus the most effective military force in the Greek world was, in fact, mainly seen as a domestic police force. The Nazi state gloried in perceptions of German strength, while the Lycurgan constitution of Sparta was, at heart, an admission of weakness - an acknowledgement that, without drastic measures, the Spartan minority would be utterly unable to maintain their privileges.
"Fascists" might be too modern a concept, but Sparta was certainly totalitarian.
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 17-Jun-2011 at 02:07 |
I also can't see the usage of the modern term as applicable. as the contextual difference while similar are not overwhelming to the point that it's application given the historical development of the ideology, in it's context, is synonymous.
Any number of ancient civilizations could be labeled as fascist if the aforementioned is ignored.
At best I will concur that like the Roman empire, at times, the Spartans could be totalitarian in thought and deed.
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Nick1986
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Posted: 17-Jun-2011 at 14:32 |
The Spartans also threw disabled babies off cliffs in the hope of creating a purer race. This sounds a lot like the Nazi theory of Eugenics
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 17-Jun-2011 at 19:34 |
Not enough Nick ole pard.
The practice of infanticide is and was world wide.
Puberty rituals.. especially female....which can be quite physically and no doubt mentally brutal.. the same.
The Ancient Chinese 'bound feet well into the early 20th ce.
The Japanese proscribed and killed foreign efforts to inflitrate their very once closed society.
Many African, S. American and SW Pacific cultures have used various accoutrements which cause dis-formation of body parts for varying reasons.
Ritualistic Cannibalism as practiced by whomever where ever.
The Vikings and Scandinavian cultures and the Celts and the Indians and Central Americans practiced ritual murder and or immolation or both for certain events and ceremonies.
Certain Native American Indian cultures left the old out in the cold to perish to ensure adequate food supplies during winter.
None of these are necessarily fascist. Nor should they be compared as such... given the 19th-20th ce. defintion of a practice of a governmental ideaology.
But as the man said Nick...ya have a beautiful mind.
Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 17-Jun-2011 at 19:42
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HerodAntipas
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Posted: 17-Jun-2011 at 19:40 |
It's also worth noting that exposing babies was a common practice in other Greek states, and that no doubt evidence of disability was a fairly common reason for infanticide. I suspect that what seemed really striking / shocking to other Greek observers about Spartan infanticide was that it was the state, not the parents, who got to decide whether or not a baby lived.
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MediaWarLord
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Posted: 17-Jun-2011 at 19:46 |
Great topic. I do really enjoy most of your topics Nick1986!
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Nick1986
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Posted: 18-Jun-2011 at 19:12 |
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis
Not enough Nick ole pard.
The practice of infanticide is and was world wide.
Puberty rituals.. especially female....which can be quite physically and no doubt mentally brutal.. the same.
The Ancient Chinese 'bound feet well into the early 20th ce.
The Japanese proscribed and killed foreign efforts to inflitrate their very once closed society.
Many African, S. American and SW Pacific cultures have used various accoutrements which cause dis-formation of body parts for varying reasons.
Ritualistic Cannibalism as practiced by whomever where ever.
The Vikings and Scandinavian cultures and the Celts and the Indians and Central Americans practiced ritual murder and or immolation or both for certain events and ceremonies.
Certain Native American Indian cultures left the old out in the cold to perish to ensure adequate food supplies during winter.
None of these are necessarily fascist. Nor should they be compared as such... given the 19th-20th ce. defintion of a practice of a governmental ideaology.
But as the man said Nick...ya have a beautiful mind.
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The Japanese have always had a reputation for savage cruelty and is probably the reason why they embraced fascist ideas before the war.
Mutilation, cannibalism and human sacrifice are barbaric but not fascist. Child abuse in itself isn't unusual, but the Spartans' motives make them fascist: desire to create a powerful militarised society with no room for the weak
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Ollios
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Posted: 14-Jul-2011 at 10:45 |
This is a lie from Cold War times. According to some sources Spartain democracy was older then Athens. (for more look at elysiumgates.com/~helena/).
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Cryptic
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Posted: 14-Jul-2011 at 17:09 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
The Japanese have always had a reputation for savage cruelty and is probably the reason why they embraced fascist ideas before the war.
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Reputation is far different than fact.
Japanese treatment of Russian POWS and Russian civlians during the Russo Japanese war was exemplary and applauded by western observers. Likewise, no atrocities were commited against German troops or civilians when the Japanese (nominal member of the allies) siezed their colonial possessions in the Pacific.
The traditional Bushido code demanded that mercy be given to prisoners and non combatants. The Bushido code was not warped into a "no prisoners" ideaology until the 1930s.
Originally posted by Nick1986
Was ancient Sparta the first fascist state? ....Unlike the Nazis, however, homosexuality was not only tolerated but encouraged: women seem to have served as baby-making factories to provide the next generation of warriors |
Fascism and Nazism are not identical ideaologies. For example, Spanish and Italian fascism were definetly right wing, but they never developed the rascist or anti-semitic beliefs that the Nazis did.
Sparta may well have been "fascist", but never "nazi".
Sparta was a strange place. Some Spartan practices such as a near classless society (among Spartans), mandatory communal dining for boys, and discouraging people from obtaining wealth beyond a certain level can be described as "maoist".
Originally posted by Nick1986
women seem to have served as baby-making factories to provide the next generation of warriors |
Not at all. Women were held in high regard. For example, a woman who died in child birth was given the same honors as a man who died in combat.
Edited by Cryptic - 14-Jul-2011 at 18:08
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opuslola
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Posted: 15-Jul-2011 at 20:33 |
Since most all of you know that I do not follow the currently held chronology of the past to be anywhere correct until the advent of the printing press, I would suggest that the real idea of a "Sparta", is based upon this;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystras
The troops of Navarre, who beat the troops of the Catalans (who ruled Athenian Greece) are the characters who have (via the works of later day revisionists) become the Spartans.
You might well want to insert the word "despotate" into your efforts?
Regards,
Edited by opuslola - 15-Jul-2011 at 20:36
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Nick1986
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Posted: 27-Jul-2011 at 13:06 |
Originally posted by Cryptic
Originally posted by Nick1986
The Japanese have always had a reputation for savage cruelty and is probably the reason why they embraced fascist ideas before the war. |
Reputation is far different than fact.
Japanese treatment of Russian POWS and Russian civlians during the Russo Japanese war was exemplary and applauded by western observers. Likewise, no atrocities were commited against German troops or civilians when the Japanese (nominal member of the allies) siezed their colonial possessions in the Pacific.
The traditional Bushido code demanded that mercy be given to prisoners and non combatants. The Bushido code was not warped into a "no prisoners" ideaology until the 1930s.
Originally posted by Nick1986
Was ancient Sparta the first fascist state? ....Unlike the Nazis, however, homosexuality was not only tolerated but encouraged: women seem to have served as baby-making factories to provide the next generation of warriors |
Fascism and Nazism are not identical ideaologies. For example, Spanish and Italian fascism were definetly right wing, but they never developed the rascist or anti-semitic beliefs that the Nazis did.
Sparta may well have been "fascist", but never "nazi".
Sparta was a strange place. Some Spartan practices such as a near classless society (among Spartans), mandatory communal dining for boys, and discouraging people from obtaining wealth beyond a certain level can be described as "maoist".
Originally posted by Nick1986
women seem to have served as baby-making factories to provide the next generation of warriors |
Not at all. Women were held in high regard. For example, a woman who died in child birth was given the same honors as a man who died in combat. |
In small skirmishes where the Japanese relied on international goodwill it was only natural they followed the rules of war. But during the 1930s (when they realised the allies were becoming an obstacle) they reverted to their earlier savagery. Like the samurai they beheaded and tortured prisoners whom they deemed dishonorable, even testing their swords on them
The Spartans' communal living draws parallels to the prewar German volkish movements and Hitler Youth: males camping together to share the hardship and adventure. Unlike Maoism which sought to create a working class and modernise China, Spartan fascism was geared towards war and enslavement
The Nazis also held good mothers in high regard. The best baby-makers were rewarded as they were producing the next generation of warriors. Having children was seen as a patriotic duty rather than a choice: many Spartans found it difficult to get into bed with their wives and frequently dressed them up as boys
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Cryptic
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Posted: 28-Jul-2011 at 13:44 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
In small skirmishes where the Japanese relied on international goodwill it was only natural they followed the rules of war. |
130,000 (70,000 in combat) men died during the Russo Japanese war. It was not a small skirmish. The exempelary treatment of prisoners by the Japanese was genuine.
Your line of reasoning seems to be: "Country "X" commited atrocities during period "Y" therefore the people of country "X" must inherently aggressive or violent.
Originally posted by Nick1986
Unlike Maoism which sought to create a working class and modernise China, Spartan fascism was geared towards war and enslavement
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Sparta, though probably best described as fascist, was no more geared towards aggressive war and enslavement than democratic Athens was or Maoist China was.
Edited by Cryptic - 28-Jul-2011 at 13:56
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opuslola
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Posted: 28-Jul-2011 at 14:04 |
I can appreciate the post of Cryptic above. It seems that in the currently accepted timeline, Sparta was never a power for neighbors across the waters to worry about, until they seem to suddenly have become a maritime power!
Certainly if one accepts the current history, for most of the time the power of Sparta was confined to land conflicts, and not merely conquest for conquest sake. They mostly seemed (to me at least) an area totally self centered and tightly wound around their strict conservativeness.
They were more like a nation of warrior Monks, than anything else. And they acted like they were surrounded by enemies upon all sides.
But, that is only my humble opinion, and I could well be wrong!
Regards,
PS, please see; http://www.metafysiko.org/index.php?module=writeit&action=read&id=48
Edited by opuslola - 28-Jul-2011 at 16:34
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Nick1986
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Posted: 10-Nov-2011 at 19:56 |
I think this topic might be of interest for Okamido
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okamido
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Posted: 10-Nov-2011 at 22:56 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
I think this topic might be of interest for Okamido |
Is there a specific point that you would like me to take a look at? Just the O/P, or something more?
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Nick1986
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Posted: 12-Nov-2011 at 19:01 |
Originally posted by okamido
Originally posted by Nick1986
I think this topic might be of interest for Okamido |
Is there a specific point that you would like me to take a look at? Just the O/P, or something more? |
I know you're interested in ancient Greece Okamido. I'd like to hear your views on this subject
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Ollios
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Posted: 12-Nov-2011 at 19:42 |
Women rights in Sparta, maybe it was obligation in heavy military enviroment but women had better life in Sparta
WHY SPARTAN WOMEN
WERE MORE DOMINANT IN SOCIETY THAN THEIR ATHENIAN SISTERS
- Girls were given a
good education in both the arts and athletics.
- Women were encouraged
to develop their intellect.
- Women owned more than
a third of the land.
- There was less
difference in age between husbands and wives, and girls in
Sparta married at a later age than their sisters in Athens.
- Husbands
spent most of their time with other men in the military
barracks; since the men were rarely home, the women were free
to take charge of almost everything outside of the army.
http://www.womenintheancientworld.com/women%20in%20sparta.htm
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okamido
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Posted: 15-Nov-2011 at 14:01 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
Was ancient Sparta the first fascist state? |
In some views yes, others..no.
It indoctrinated an unyielding loyalty to the 'state', but it also had a heavily enforced class system. It was against anything that might be considered decadent, thus affecting the moral strength of its citizens, but it absolutely did not advocate any form of political violence, not was it an expansionist society until after the Peloponnesian war.
Politically, Sparta was one of the first known republics, thus having a form of representative democracy for the enfranchised citizenry. This is in stark contrast to a one-party totalitarian society.
All in all, I just don't think you could quantify this Polis in a modern day political sense. It was fairly unique.
In this militarised society children were taken from their parents and trained for war. |
This isn't necessarily correct. While removed from their parents, they were not consistantly trained for military action till their early to mid-teens. The Agoge was the first mandated education system for male citizens. They were taught to read and write (not to the extant of girls though), and a huge emphasis was put on physical education. The Agoge gets a bad rap due to Plutarch, who wrote from tainted resources provided by Sparta's enemies. In fact, if the education system in place was so horrenous and brutal, as some would wish us to believe, why on earth would rich and noble men, from all over Greece, arrange for their sons to be educated there? In a time when girls were left in jars along the road, would a wealthy Conrinthian send his first born son and heir into a system were he could potentially be killed?
There was a secret police that murdered troublemakers and most crimes were punished with death. |
The Krypteia, as they were called, has never conclusively been understood. Again, taking from Plutarch, we have an understanding that every fall, the 'upperclassmen' of the Agoge were sent out to wage a clandestine war against the helot population. It is thought that some of them may have had special orders to take down the most 'troublesome' agitators of the helot population, thus keeping them from stirring a revolt. When you are holding down a large, hostile population against their will, this could actually be seen as a very 'economical' way of handling it......other than not enslaving them in the first place that is.
Every subject lived and breathed for the state and a Nazi-like cult of death glorified death in battle. |
There is some validity to this as there seemingly was a form of 'death-cult'. Men that dies in battle were the only ones that received a stele, or tombstone. It could be debated that it is more along the lines of an 'ancestor-cult', much like the reverance that the Romans practiced however.
Unlike the Nazis, however, homosexuality was not only tolerated but encouraged: women seem to have served as baby-making factories to provide the next generation of warriors |
Again...this is something that can't conclusively be proven. There is quite a bit of debate in academic circles regarding the proper understanding of the relationship between the erastes and eromenos. While homosexuality was prevelant in every society since the dawn of man, a State-sponsored union is unlikely. The original union was to be one of mentor and student, and it was illegal in Sparta to take advantage of that relationship. The percentage of pedastry in Sparta was probably no greater or lesser than any other Polis in Greece.
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Nick1986
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Posted: 15-Nov-2011 at 19:59 |
Greek society was undoubtedly homosexual, especially Sparta whose brides had to dress like boys due to the male-dominated upbringing of their warrior husbands. If the naked male statues aren't enough to convince you, read the story of Achilles and Patroclus, and have a look at the structure of the Spartan army. Each warrior was paired with a lover as it was believed they would fight more fiercely to impress one another.
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