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Alexander the Great , Gengish Khan and Mode Sanyu

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Housecarl
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  Quote Vagos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Alexander the Great , Gengish Khan and Mode Sanyu
    Posted: 15-Jun-2011 at 11:28
Hello to all.      We have three leaders who  are among the greatests military leaders of all known  times...

Alexander the Great
Mode Sanuy
Genkish Khan

I think they 're all undefeated in great battles !
who do you think would win  in a battle  ?  Alexander and Canyu lived circa at the  time  but Genkish kan is  much later .

Who would win statistically most of the times in a battle between equal numbers and who would win in a free war (  every side could brind all resources they had ) ?

OF course I wish to see opinions with proofs and not only opinions of likeness without objektive facts.
(I know of course that this   debate is very difficult  and  it can be answeared only hypothetically , but despite of this I hope it's going to be a useful conversation

Greetings
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Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2011 at 12:20
As you might know it's not an easy question because you are asking for the relative analysis of comparative methods... tactics... strategy... logistics... equipment and mobility of disparate time periods...used by cultures that were not entirely similar... if at all.
 
Hence my immediate response is.... given factors of terrain and climate and infantry heavy force might well succeed in lengthy combat in a defensive posture better then a mobile force of similar numbers whose shock and mobility might be adversely effected.
 
Otoh an Infantry heavy force in the open..... even given equal (and that's subjective) terrain might fare poorly even in fair weather conditions and equal logistics against a more mobile force using 'hit and run'-harrasing tactics... because of it's lack of immediate response and lesser flexibility in movement.
 
Many considerations. But tis an excellent question. Much food for thought.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Vagos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2011 at 11:07
Hello bro! Thanks for your answear.

Yes very wise statements.  Genkish Khan is much later , but  Alexander  and Shanyu lived around at the same time (with a small difference of 120-140 years) ..

 We can search for the genius behind Sanyu and Alexander and we can search the effieciency of the macedonian greek and the xsiongnu military model....
 The Xsiognu were maybe the best horse archers of the ancient world . Maybe they are related to the later Huns but history is not sure about this point.        Important questions are how was the Xsyongnu horse archer  of 200 BC ?  How great was his reach? Had the Xsyognu also cavalry for close combat ?

 About the Macedonians-Greeks  I know much more . They   had basically a heavy phalanx with pikes (sarises) .  This was as we all should know a anti-heavycavalry formation .   The Macedonians had at the time Alexanders also the  hypaspists (elite soldiers) and the Companion cavalry (some thousands horsemens who are although regarded as one of the best heavy cavalries and the first true shock cavalry of the ancient world.
Alexander used  the infantry as a defense for the army and with the companion cavalry (etairoi) he attacked the enemy and crushed him... Alexander also fought and beat the Scyrhians at Jaxartes who were  armed similar to the Xsyongnu, although the Macedonians  were desreoyed under Zopirion  from the Scythians almost at the same time but in a different place..

Alexader also  used machines (ancient artilery) against the Scythes horse archers ..  

In the end how great were the forces of Alexander and Mode Sanyu ?  The forces of the Xsyongnu  are seen as many houndred thousands but were they truely so many  or are this only the exagerated storys of the Chinese historians ??
How great was the army of Alexander as he fought Pyrrhus ?  Most of the informations is about 30-50.000 but why said Plutarch that Alexander had circa 100.000 men as he rerurned . Is this true or wanted Plutarch only to exagerate to show the heavy  loses of the  pass of the Gedrosian dessert ??


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Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2011 at 11:23
How great was the army of Alexander as he fought Pyrrhus ? Most of the informations is about 30-50.000 but why said Plutarch that Alexander had circa 100.000 men as he rerurned . Is this true or wanted Plutarch only to exagerate to show the heavy loses of the pass of the Gedrosian dessert ??
 
 
I tend to agree with the lower estimates. And Plutarch like most previous and later in the era can be somewhat nationalistic in their exaggerations. Later for example look at the numbers of KIA's accredited to the great Marius.
 
Enormous numbers that aside from one possible exception would rely on total nations of people on the move to just accommodate their food and water requirements.
 
I learned long ago not to do anything except take them with a grain of salt as none of them were using the historical method, as we know it, in their analysis.
 
Don't be shy keep posting...I might not always get back to it by I enjoy your interest. And welcome to the forum.
 
Be well.
 


 
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Vagos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2011 at 12:32
Hello Centrix. thanks for you kind words Hug  

sorry for the misspelling ! I meaned Poros(Paurava) and not Pyrrhus!

Yes  I guess you 're right about your estimations about Plutarch.  Although he is a great biograph with very useful informations his nimbers are laughable... In the battle of gaugamela/arbela he  say  that the persian army is one million men strong( Herodot said the Persians were 5 million men if I remember correct)

About the 100.000 troops of Alexander I'm though more sceptic.  Mostly the historians tend to exagerate the numbers of the enemys , not of the own nation.   I saw long time ago a documentary about Alexanders campaign( I think it was from BBC '' in the footsteps of alexander the great)  and if I remember correct they  said that Alexander had reinforcements which were 70.000 men strong. I repeat I'm not sure about the number!!!!!
 I will see the documantary again...

I think very useful would be also to learn about the enemys of the Macedonian-Greeks and of the Xsyongnu. I mean the fighting art of the PErsians and of the Chinsese. We can compare them to see if they have similarities or rather not ....

That's for now!! Greetings :D :D
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