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Are Armenian dead more important than Turkish dead?

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Alparslan View Drop Down
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  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Are Armenian dead more important than Turkish dead?
    Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 03:46

Armenian allegations of genocide can not be substantiated by non-partisan historical evidence. "...It was an intercommunal warfare that took place within a world war, which caused much suffering to all the peoples of the area, Muslims and Christians alike,..." concluded a statement signed by 69 prominent historians in USA.

Armenian armed resistance groups formed in 1887 and 1890 (i.e. 28 years prior the alleged genocide )used propaganda, agitation, and pure terror, in the Ottoman Empire, in order to provoke a retaliation from Muslim inhabitants of Eastern Anatolia, which then supposedly would be used as a pretext by major colonial powers of the era, namely Czarist Russia, Britain and France , to intervene "in the name of saving Christians". Thus, allies would beat the Ottoman Empire, divide up its lands among themselves, and give Armenians the eastern parts of Anatolia where Greater Armenian would be established... "And all lived happily ever after" would end the pipe dream...

That was the evil Armenian plan and the Armenian nationalist groups, ignoring the fact that the total Armenian population was spread thinly over the area and always was a minority wherever they lived (averaged out to 17% of the total Ottoman population in the east, much less than that in the West), started chasing this evil plan with up-to-then-unforeseen brutality, victimizing the Muslims and Turks of the area, and reporting these incidents to the West as "Turks killing Armenians".

Armenian nationalists made extensive use of forgeries, fakeries, fabrications, misrepresentation, and exaggerations in their reports to the world via Armenian church, Christian missionaries, western diplomats, and other channels. Some common examples are forged Talaat telegrams, invented Hitler quote, exaggerated casualty and population numbers, plagiaried painting by a Russian prior to the alleged genocide shown as Armenian skulls of the victims of genocide... Armenians used total misrepresentation regularly to cover up the bloodshed and the mayhem they were causing.

The West easily believed these stories that filled their newspapers, without investigating their sources or hearing the other side of the story. British wartime propaganda, recanted after the war by the British themselves, continued to be used as the basis and proof of the "alleged" genocide to this day. Thus, not only Muslims and Turks were subjected to a ruthless ethnic cleansing campaign by the Armenians in Russian uniform, Armenians in French uniform, and Armenians under no uniform at all, but also, they were presented to the West as one and only villains.

All the one sided propaganda in the West, helped create a simplistic picture of "Poor starving Armenians being killed en-masse by bad, ruthless Turks" which was readily bought , lock-stock-and barrel, at face value, by the public already indoctrinated with anti-Muslim, anti-Turk bias for centuries. Although refuted at all scholarly levels possible (history, historiography, geography, forensics, social, ethnological, and others), the Armenian allegations are still leveled by Armenian political lobbies around the world today.

In fact, the Armenians are using the very same tactics even today, to grab lands from neighboring Azerbaijan, causing 1.5 million Azeri non-combatant population to be refugees on their own soil, living in cold, leaky tents, with little or no food or medicine, since 1992. Armenian aggression is now focusing on neighboring Turkey and even Georgia. It is time to put a stop to this massive misrepresentation-fueled-Armenian-aggression since 1887.

Acknowledging the Armenian suffering and dead, but totally ignoring the much larger Turkish suffering and dead, if not based on ignorance, boils down to saying "Armenian dead are more important than Turkish dead", and therefore, a racist way of looking at history.

Turkish academicians around the globe condemn all efforts by the Armenian lobbies, to misrepresent the truth and invite their colleagues and all fair-minded people, to join the efforts to seek peace, tolerance, and global friendship of all peoples.

The signature campaign by the Turkish academicians is a peaceful way of saying "enough is enough... Lets start telling the world the truth... No more Armenian lies..."

Let no more lies serve Armenian aggression !

Let truth serve peace...

http://www.tetedeturc.com/home/article.php3?id_article=569

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 03:50

well politics as usual is the explanation, the victors of WW1 are going to play their allies merits and their enemies low points.  Of course all people that die in genocide are equally important, and of course atrocities were commited on both sides with equal intensity.

But I am concerned by saying Armenian aggression like there never was any Turkish aggression.  I think both sides are qually to blame, and thus both sides are lying.  Theres no claiming high ground for either Turks or Armenians on this one Im afraid.  Both countries should be ashamed, although Armenia should publically acknowledge its burden as well, and no fireign historian seems willing to be able to request such accountability from anyone but Turks

 

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I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 06:24
A death is a death, neither one can be considered more valuable than any other.
But isn't this something you Turks should start considering, why deny the well known fact of ethnic cleansing preformed, why such mockery over the deaths of thousands of innocent (some would say millions)???
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 06:28
Of course not, but this has never been the point of discussion in this debate over the Armenian genocide.

I can understand the stance of the Turkish people, like you, up to a certain point. It seems the debate has only two fronts, the Armenian and World opinion on one side, and Turkey, more or less isolated, on the other side.
Its understandable that the Turkish, driven into a corner, have assumed a position of stubborn denial.
This is of course self-defeating, the more the Turkish insist that the alleged genocide never happened, the more they defend themselves against any accusation with counter-allegations, the more suspicious the World public will become.
The other problem is that, as most Turkish posts in these forums demonstrate, that the Turkish seem to suffer from some kind of persecution complex or paranoia.
This is not an issue of general anti-Turkish propaganda, most people who contribute in this forums, with some possible exceptions of course, do not have anti-Turkish sentiments, but are quite rightly worried about certain aspects of Turkish policies against minorities in their country, and would certain voice their worries if any other country was concerned.
I can, of course as a German, draw parallels to how the Germans came to terms with the crimes they committed in the past. Although the evidence of the Holocaust was far more overwhelming than in the Armenian genocide, the acceptance of the sheer extension of the Holocaust was not without contention. But the Germans have accepted their guilt in full and came out the better for it.
I think that it is in the Turkish best interest that an independent, high level investigation should be opened, with participants all sides can accept and whose findings will be accepted by all sides.
If Turkish guilt should be established, so be it.
In the long run, it would benefit the credibility of the Turkish state immensely, if Turkey stood up for their sins of the past, if they inded have been committed.


Edited by Komnenos
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 10:55
Originally posted by Tobodai

well politics as usual is the explanation, the victors of WW1 are going to play their allies merits and their enemies low points.  Of course all people that die in genocide are equally important, and of course atrocities were commited on both sides with equal intensity.

But I am concerned by saying Armenian aggression like there never was any Turkish aggression.  I think both sides are qually to blame, and thus both sides are lying.  Theres no claiming high ground for either Turks or Armenians on this one Im afraid.  Both countries should be ashamed, although Armenia should publically acknowledge its burden as well, and no fireign historian seems willing to be able to request such accountability from anyone but Turks

 

Weel said.But we are saying that we killed each other not:

"vile armenaians attcked babies at midnight......"

or

"bloody turks attcked to satisfy their....."

"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 10:57

Originally posted by Phallanx

A death is a death, neither one can be considered more valuable than any other.
But isn't this something you Turks should start considering, why deny the well known fact of ethnic cleansing preformed, why such mockery over the deaths of thousands of innocent (some would say millions)???

Well known or misunderstood.I just pasted a teeeny bit of the ottoman archives and it had some english in it too.If you are unsatisfied i am willing to translate every word............

"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 10:59

Originally posted by Komnenos

Turkey stood up for their sins of the past, if they inded have been committed.

If indeed have commited then it would be the islamist Ottomans not Turkey

"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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  Quote Gazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 13:21
Yes Armenian,Greek,Kurdish,Arab...all of them are considered more valuable than Turkish lives and thousands of dead Turks are simply ignored.
Freedom is the recognition of necessity.-Friedrich Engels
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 14:44
Of course ignored.Turks are a vile barbaric race.We even invented a time macine to slaughter some egyptian!We discovered america for some incan head!
"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 14:45
Muhahahahahhah!!!!1
"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 15:08
I found a really nice picture of the poor massackered armenians with their mustaches and axes.I'll post it soon
"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 15:23

Originally posted by akyncy

I found a really nice picture of the poor massackered armenians with their mustaches and axes.I'll post it soon

Thanks, i guess.

And no one said Armenian lives are more valuable than Turkish lives. No one is denying that many Turks died, they joined a World War. We are simply stating that Armenians were massacred from government order in an organized fashion. That is the only difference between Armenian and Turkish deaths.

 

Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 05:00
So the hundreds of thousands of Turkish and Kurdish civilian villagers including babies and pregnants died in the war? I dont think so.

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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 11:57
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

Originally posted by akyncy

I found a really nice picture of the poor massackered armenians with their mustaches and axes.I'll post it soon

Thanks, i guess.

And no one said Armenian lives are more valuable than Turkish lives. No one is denying that many Turks died, they joined a World War. We are simply stating that Armenians were massacred from government order in an organized fashion. That is the only difference between Armenian and Turkish deaths.

 

Sorry but it's a false claim.I just posted the ottoman archives and it says nothing about it.If you are unsatisfied i will translate some parts for you.That didn't happen.The armenians were sent on exile because they attcked the turks.

Exile.Of course many died on the way because of conditions bandit and so on.BUt the thing is it''s civil.Armenians vs Turks.

"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 15:29
Originally posted by aknc

Sorry but it's a false claim.I just posted the ottoman archives and it says nothing about it.If you are unsatisfied i will translate some parts for you.That didn't happen.The armenians were sent on exile because they attcked the turks.

The Ottomans were the main perpetrators of the Armenian massacres, so I don't think their accounts are very objective.
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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 17:42
It is said that after ww1, the civilians in present day turkey had a little over 2 million civilian deaths. Are all these civilian deaths from civil war, or exersized orders to kill from the government?
http://theforgotten.org/intro.html
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 17:55
Originally posted by akyncy

Sorry but it's a false claim.I just posted the ottoman archives and it says nothing about it.If you are unsatisfied i will translate some parts for you.That didn't happen.The armenians were sent on exile because they attcked the turks.

Exile.Of course many died on the way because of conditions bandit and so on.BUt the thing is it''s civil.Armenians vs Turks.

If you send hundreds of thousands of people into exile, you have to have enough soldiers to transport and protect them. The Turks did nothing to stop the Kurdish bandits from killing Armenian women, children and elderly. If you do not have the means to appropriately deport a population (which is unjustified to begin with) then you cannot attempt it.

You said they were sent into exile because they attacked the Turks. Tell me, how many women, children and elderly Armenians attacked the Turks? Because they were the bulk of the people sent into exile, most of the men were serving in the army.



Edited by ArmenianSurvival
Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 06:25
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 06:38

hey hey hey

armenians were exiled for their own security

whatever anyone says; it was a civil war under the conditions of WWI

"Genocide" is non-sense to use for 1915 while even what the nazis did to jews is still called "holocaust"

2 million???

there had never been that number of armenian ethnicity in anatolia

our president invited armenia to join the studies of turkish archives which helps to solve international problems(like between katar and bahrain) but Osakian procrastinates. because accusing much more profitable for the dashnaks

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 06:50

Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

If you send hundreds of thousands of people into exile, you have to have enough soldiers to transport and protect them. The Turks did nothing to stop the Kurdish bandits from killing Armenian women, children and elderly. If you do not have the means to appropriately deport a population (which is unjustified to begin with) then you cannot attempt it.

 

yeah kurdish bandits may have attacked those civilian armenians, but it was the inner problem of the "state of the ottoman empire". You gotta leave it to history books

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