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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Gladiators
    Posted: 30-May-2011 at 19:59

Long before John Anderson started out as a referee our Roman forebears enjoyed the spectacle of gladiator combat. This was a lot more violent than its modern incarnation (and lacked the Queen soundtrack). Roman gladiators comprising condemned criminals, debtors, army deserters and prisoners of war fought to the death in the arena in the hope of earning the wooden sword of freedom
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2011 at 19:38
So, who wants to start a discussion on the weapons and equipment of the Roman gladiator?
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2011 at 21:46
Well in the scene you presented above, all I see is a "dead" gladiator!   He is screwed via any way he could really react, especially if the "trained" Tiger decided to participate!

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  Quote Scholar7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2011 at 23:12
I do think that a Gladiator could take on a tiger, but against a human opponent too, he's gonna be in for one hell of a fight.  By the way, here's a web address on Wikipedia (yes I know it's not completely reliable) of my favorite gladiator

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murmillo

Also, here's a site I found on gladiator weapons and armor

http://www.gladiator.hu/index.php?Itemid=10&id=6&option=com_content&task=view&lang=en

Finally, what can any of you tell me about female gladiators?

Hope I was of some help.


Edited by Scholar7 - 31-May-2011 at 23:15
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  Quote Kevinmeath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2011 at 13:04
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2011 at 19:58
Originally posted by Scholar7


I do think that a Gladiator could take on a tiger, but against a human opponent too, he's gonna be in for one hell of a fight.  By the way, here's a web address on Wikipedia (yes I know it's not completely reliable) of my favorite gladiatorhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MurmilloAlso, here's a site I found on gladiator weapons and armorhttp://www.gladiator.hu/index.php?Itemid=10&id=6&option=com_content&task=view&lang=enFinally, what can any of you tell me about female gladiators?Hope I was of some help.

Bestiarii were gladiators specially trained to fight wild animals. They carried long spears. Commodus himself participated in this form of gladiatorial combat
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2011 at 19:15
Originally posted by Scholar7


I do think that a Gladiator could take on a tiger, but against a human opponent too, he's gonna be in for one hell of a fight.  By the way, here's a web address on Wikipedia (yes I know it's not completely reliable) of my favorite gladiatorhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MurmilloAlso, here's a site I found on gladiator weapons and armorhttp://www.gladiator.hu/index.php?Itemid=10&id=6&option=com_content&task=view&lang=enFinally, what can any of you tell me about female gladiators?Hope I was of some help.

I think Caligula arranged a fight between a female gladiator and a dwarf. It would be interesting to find out more about this
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  Quote unclefred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2011 at 00:32
Caligula was probably more interested in the Dwarf's member than in the fight.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2011 at 21:07
lol probably. He was a notorious pervert whose depravity rivaled that of Commodus and Nero
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2011 at 05:03
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  Quote Scholar7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2011 at 12:48
Another type of Gladiator I like are the Thraex and the Hoplomachus.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2011 at 20:41

The Thraex's weapons were based on those of the Dacians: a curved sword, a square shield and a crested helmet. They were often paired against the gladius wielding Murmillo whose equipment was based on that of the Roman legionary
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2011 at 16:31
One gladiator i'd like to find out more about is the Scissor. His weapons were supposedly hooked knives wielded in a similar way to the Indian gauntlet swords
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2011 at 11:31
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2011 at 22:13

I'd have liked to see how they did the Naumachia. The Colosseum was apparently flooded and galleys full of gladiators fought a naval battle
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2011 at 19:45
Chariots were used in the Colosseum for racing, but did gladiators ever use them as a fighting platform, like the ancient Britons?
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2011 at 17:17
It seems that the gladiator games developed out of the pre-Roman human sacrifice rituals.
  In the beginning it seems to have been more of a ritualised game, held in honor of the dead, and the participants partook in it voluntarily /the site says that death was rare/. Later though criminals were used; criminals were considered "sacer" - "belonging to the gods"; this shows how much the boundaries between the law and religion weren't distinct - so, the gods gave the criminals in the hands of the Romans; and the Romans handed them back to the gods for violating the laws, that were gods' laws. This is probably why later war captives were used as gladiators - the war captives were considered given in hands of the Romans by their very gods. So the death of one of the gladiators were considered as some aspect of a sacrifice to the Manes.
Anyway, seeing the gladiator games in religious context makes them more understandable, IMHO, that just seeing them as the cruel desires of spectators to see other people killed.

Here is another version how the whole thing started:
"...A contemporary second century AD scholar, Festus, (who abridged the work of the Augustan era writer Verrius Flaccus) suggests that gladiatorial combat was a substitution for an original sacrifice of prisoners on the tombs of great warriors. Tertullian, a Christian writer also of the second century, claimed that gladiatorial combat was a human sacrifice to the manes or spirits of the dead...."http://www.unrv.com/culture/gladiator.php

So far, I see 3 versions of the genesis of the gladiators' games :
1. Etruscan - 2 slaves fighting to the death, at the death of their master,as s sacrifice, to appease the gods of the afterworld.
2. Sabelian - ritualased game, with volunteers, death is rare.
3. Festus - direct substitution for a real sacrifice on the tombs of great warriors.

A wonder if all of the 3 versions have place in the story. suppose that is started with the Sabellian variant, and the Etruscans borrowed it and turned it into theirs. Then the Romans, who may had the sacrifice Festus is talking about, may have borrowed the Etruscan one, substituting it for theirs.
I'm just theorising, of course.

Officialy the gladiator games started in 264 BCE when Decimus Scaeva held a 3-paired game to honor his father Decimus Pera. This evolved in a popular death ritual, "munus", in which specially trained to kill slaves fought to the death. The vanquished one was though to follow in the afterlife arms and all, in order to defend his dead master. This is akin to the Thracian sacrifaces for a dead ruler when his wife, and some slaves were entombed with the dead ruler in order to serve him in afterlife; similarly the tombs of the Egyptian pharaohs of the 1st dynasty were surrounded with the graves of their servants. Also the servants that were taking away the fallen gladiators were dressed as Charon, the god who carried the dead across the river Stix - this symbolism evokes even more the other-worldly sacrificial nature of the gladiator's games. Today the bull fights in Spain are a relic from both the gladiator games and of the sacrifice load of it.
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2011 at 17:39
Another bit I just remembered - the first "munus" were performed on the "Forum Boarium", the cattle market in Rome; in the same place according to Plutarch he Romans performed a human sacrifice burying alive 2 Greeks and 2 Gauls:
Plutarch mentions those sacrifices as not un-Roman in his "Roman Questions" #83, and talks exactly of Greeks and Gauls being sacrificed:
"...When the Romans learned that the people called Bletonesii,187 a barbarian tribe, had sacrificed a man to the gods, why did they send for the tribal rulers with intent to punish them, but, when it was made plain that they had done thus in accordance with a certain custom, why did the Romans set them at liberty, but forbid the practice for the future? Yet they themselves, not many years before, had buried alive two men and two women, two of them Greeks, two Gauls, in the place called the Forum Boarium. It certainly p127seems strange that they themselves should do this, and yet rebuke barbarians on the ground that they were acting with impiety.
Did they think it impious to sacrifice men to the gods, but necessary to sacrifice them to the spirits? Or did they believe that men who did this by tradition and custom were sinning, whereas they themselves did it by command of the Sibylline books? ..." Plutarch ? Roman Questions (Part*4 of 5)


Those sacrifices were made to the gods of the underworld - Manes and Dii Inferii, according to teh Sibyline books:
 "...We know of three instances, recorded by Livy and Plutarch, where a ritual human sacrifice was performed at Rome. Two pairs of Gauls and Greeks, a man and a woman each, were buried alive in the Forum Boarium. The instances recorded took place in the years 228, 216 and 113 BCE. In each case these sacrifices were made in response to instructions taken from the Sibylline Books. The sacrifices seem to have been made to the Manes and Dii Inferi...." http://home.scarlet.be/mauk.haemers/..._sacrifice.htmsacrifices

Later the religious-sacrificial games were pushed into the political arena, with important families competing who will come up with the most lavish ones, and the original meaning was pretty much lost, sinking into the "bread and entertainment" mode that they are most popularly known with.

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2011 at 08:52
Is modern Spanish bullfighting a remnant of gladiatorial combat? The crowds gather to watch an animal's suffering and cheer the matador for his ability to kill
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2011 at 15:23
Originally posted by Nick1986

Is modern Spanish bullfighting a remnant of gladiatorial combat? The crowds gather to watch an animal's suffering and cheer the matador for his ability to kill

Well, the same the Roman were doing while going to gladiator games. My father was in Spain and he told me that he talked with some Spaniards about the bull fighting and they told him that this is an honorable way for a bull to die - his last chance to die fighting, as opposed to being slain as a mere animal; now, the same was thought about the gladiators in Rome, word for word, that's why slaves were trying to become gladiators /besides the prospects to become free, which was an extremely rare occurrence/, it was an honor to die as a gladiator as opposed to die as a slave after who knows what kind of humiliations.

For me the bullfight is a cross between remnants of bull sacrifice /very old Mediterranian tradition, both pre-Greek, and Greek in Crete, Greece, Anatolia/ and the gladiatorial combat which itself started as a sacrifice /human one though/. The image of the bull and the image of the slain gladiator merged in the usual way in which religious images fall in each other patterns and overlap in a sort of syncretism.



Edited by Don Quixote - 16-Oct-2011 at 15:26
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