QuoteReplyTopic: What was the purpose of Azeri genocide in Khojaly ? Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 22:27
USA didnt signed the lausanne too as far as i know.
The US didn't play a major role in WWI, and was a third-party nation back then.
if Turkey is best friend of with Iran and China against the West?
That is only in your imagination, books, and movies. Turkey is still an ally of Israel and the US, even though the opinion of Turks about this is changing.
Lines drawn on a map, by imperialists...
The borders of the 3 Caucasian republics (and Karabagh) were also drawn by imperialist Russians and/or their Soviet successors, and it wasn't drawn along ethnic lines. That is obvious when you look at Karabagh, and the multitude of ethnic groups in Georgia.
Well, let's see the map. Armenia is landlocked, and has borders with Georgia, Iran Azerbaijan, and Turkey. In order to maintain contact with the world, it needs access to one of the three, Iran, Turkey, or Georgia, with the best option being Turkey. Without this access, it will be screwed. Iran won't let the West help Armenia, if Armenia becomes pro-Western. Georgia may, now that it is somewhat pro-Western, after the revolution. But Russia is always near, to reclaim it, and it won't like a pro-Western Armenia either. Turkey is the only reliable pro-Western contact in the long term. As long as Turkish border remains closed, Armenia's balls will firmly be in Russia's hands.
Armenia can always find another route to Europe, via Georgia and/or Russia, and develop economic relations with Iran. Turkey isn't reliable. If another conflict erupts between Armenia and Azerbaijan, even if Azerbaijan starts it, Turkey would close the border again in support of Turkic Azerbaijan. Besides, Turkey the border, not Armenia.
It's not worth exchanging land paid with Armenian blood, only for an easier route to Europe via Turkey, and some Turkish lira.
Besides, legally Armenia was part of USSR, and they accepted the Turkey-USSR agreements. Armenians hadn't accepted the borders, who cares? Do you think the Kurds accepted Turkish-Iraqi border? Do you think the Arabs accepted the Turkish-Syrian border? Do you think anyone asked these people what they think about the borders? Unfortunately, the governments decide borders, not the people, and Moscow and Ankara drew the Turkish-Armenian border.
If Kemalist Turkey has the right to reject agreements between the then-official Turkish government (the Sultan) and Europe, don't you think that modern Armenia could reject agreements between the now non-existent Soviet Union and Turkey? Now that Armenians have a country to call their own, things are different about treaties like Lausanne, where Armenians/Armenia didn't participate.
The US didn't play a major role in WWI, and was a third-party nation back then.
They surely wanted the Armenia mandate for themselves.
That is only in your imagination, books, and movies. Turkey is still an ally of Israel and the US, even though the opinion of Turks about this is changing.
I am talking about that change. Armenians are working hard to bring about that change.
The borders of the 3 Caucasian republics (and Karabagh) were also drawn by imperialist Russians and/or their Soviet successors, and it wasn't drawn along ethnic lines. That is obvious when you look at Karabagh, and the multitude of ethnic groups in Georgia.
While the borders need not be drawn by ethnic lines, I agree with your argument.
Armenia can always find another route to Europe, via Georgia and/or Russia, and develop economic relations with Iran. Turkey isn't reliable. If another conflict erupts between Armenia and Azerbaijan, even if Azerbaijan starts it, Turkey would close the border again in support of Turkic Azerbaijan. Besides, Turkey the border, not Armenia.
Russia won't like a pro-Western Armenia. And it is impossible to improve ties with Iran and stay pro-Western at the same time, like your link says.
It's not worth exchanging land paid with Armenian blood, only for an easier route to Europe via Turkey, and some Turkish lira.
This kind of aggressive attitude (i.e. inavding other people's lands) will get you nowhere in this day and age. Armenia should be wary all the time. If Azerbaijan feels stronger anytime, it will attack.
What about your pals who want to teach me Armenian history.
What is it to me what others wrote?
Armenians participated in Sevres, but didn't participate in Lausanne.
Correction, the imperialist lords brought along some Armenian vassals as spectators to Sevres. You should make the distinction between the audience and the performers.
If Kemalist Turkey has the right to reject agreements between the then-official Turkish government (the Sultan) and Europe, don't you think that modern Armenia could reject agreements between the now non-existent Soviet Union and Turkey?
I write for the third time, Ottoman government was not official after the West's dispersion of the parliament. Give up this Sevres crap, if you want to be taken seriously.
Could Armenia reject the agreements between the USSR and Turkey? Well, of course, anyone can reject any agreement. But Kemalists won their rights by fighting and winning a war. If Armenia is going to reject, they should be ready to fight and win a war against Turkey as well. That's why Armenia accepts the agreements. They know that they can't take land from Turkey by force, and they don't want that land with a Turkish-Kurdish population anyway. Only the diaspora dreams of ethnically cleansing 'their ancestral lands' given to them by Great Britain and France, and re-populating it with Armenians. Pure fantasy.
Now that Armenians have a country to call their own, things are different about treaties like Lausanne, where Armenians/Armenia didn't participate.
AFAIK, Armenia does not dispute the border with Turkey, only the diaspora does.
"They surely wanted the Armenia mandate for themselves."
The mandate was setup, the country was formed, however the US Congress rejected the final plans of investing troops/resources.
"I am talking about that change. Armenians are working hard to bring about that change"
Yes some are. Why do you think Erdogan keeps going over to the west? If
he doesnt his government will fall, arab countries dont like him, if
Turkey leans towards Iran and the middle east, Erdogan's government
will be replaced. I dont think the Turkish citizenry would want to turn
back on secularism either...seeing that many Turkish muslims now are
atheist.
"Russia won't like a pro-Western Armenia. And it is impossible to
improve ties with Iran and stay pro-Western at the same time, like your
link says. "
Dont be naive, Russia has control over all 3 Caucasian republics.
All Russia needs to do is implore the ethnicity of Georgian Armenians,
who are a majoirty there (Javakherti region), and all three countries
will go to hell. Georgia will disintegrate, Armenia's economy will
plummet again, and Azeri multibillion dollar pipeline will be
destroyed...why do you think Armenia is trying to find Export/Import
lines with Iran? Even though its risky, it will give Armenia an energy
resource from a somewhat stable country, and I dont think Iran is going
to attacked anytime soon (if ever).
"This kind of aggressive attitude (i.e. inavding other people's lands)
will get you nowhere in this day and age. Armenia should be wary all
the time. If Azerbaijan feels stronger anytime, it will attack."
Do you freally think Azerbaijan would win the war? Armenia has a
conitnuous flow of weapons from Russia. You should read up on the
latest US government issues on what would happen if a full scale war
starts again.
"This kind of aggressive attitude (i.e. inavding other people's lands)
will get you nowhere in this day and age. Armenia should be wary all
the time. If Azerbaijan feels stronger anytime, it will attack."
Other routes, not via Turkey have been established. The opening of the
border will not change much...and as Artaxiad stated, Turkey can close
them anytime, this investing into Turkish routes will be a huge
mistake. Seeing how your military still hates Armenia.
"They know that they can't take land from Turkey by force, and they
don't want that land with a Turkish-Kurdish population anyway. Only the
diaspora dreams of ethnically cleansing 'their ancestral lands' given
to them by Great Britain and France, and re-populating it with
Armenians. Pure fantasy."
Agree, unless eveyrone on that lands is Armenian by blood and they welcome the Armenian government
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