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Les Alains et les chevaliers Bretons.

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TheAlaniDragonRising View Drop Down
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Les Alains et les chevaliers Bretons.
    Posted: 13-May-2011 at 12:00
Que sait-on les Alains et leur connexion avec les Knights de breton en France?
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2011 at 17:06
While I do not have the ability to write to you in Francais, I do understand your question.

But, since I even have problems figuring out if there was a connection between the Catalans and the Alans, in Eastern Europe in the 13th century CE, I can only state that for the existance of the Catalans, I have more faith, thus I could understand the conncection of them to the area we call Beton/Bretagne, in Francais at least.


Both the Cat-alans and the Alans, were known to be armies for hire during that period and even earlier I would guess.

Thus I would ask you just where might such a "great company" of warriors go, when their lands in Greece/Byzantium or Otto/Othomania, were seized/conquered?

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 18-May-2011 at 17:46
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  Quote benzin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2011 at 11:58
I know only one historical source wich connects the alans and the catalans and its the gesta hungarorum wich is the historical codex of the ancient hungarians and its written around 1200-1250 AD.
it says the catalans got their name from the alans who live in castilia, thats why they are called catalans.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2011 at 20:12
Dear The AlaniDragonRising, I hope you are still extant?

Since you started this, just how do you plan upon finishing it?

Benzin gives us a possible connection, but provides little in proving it other than by supposedly using "The Gesta Hungarorum", as a source.

Are you capable of reading it?

Perhaps if member benzin, is still active he can give us even more information? You must note that the powers that be have had me muzzled for a while, hence the delay in my response.

All of the tests proved that I was not rabid however. smile

Regards,


Edited by opuslola - 10-Jul-2011 at 20:14
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2011 at 11:00
Originally posted by opuslola

Dear The AlaniDragonRising, I hope you are still extant?

Since you started this, just how do you plan upon finishing it?

Benzin gives us a possible connection, but provides little in proving it other than by supposedly using "The Gesta Hungarorum", as a source.

Are you capable of reading it?

Perhaps if member benzin, is still active he can give us even more information? You must note that the powers that be have had me muzzled for a while, hence the delay in my response.

All of the tests proved that I was not rabid however. smile

Regards,

Yes it would seem I still exist at times. I think it would be excellent if Benzin elaborated on the information they were talking about concerning "The Gesta Hungarorum". I know that at one time there had been a connection with the Alans and the Catalans, with the name meaning Goths and Alans.  
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2011 at 15:43
Using an old quote; "Is is a mystery, wrapped in an enigma?"

You do know, that Crusader/Byzanitine history states that a unit of some "Alan" mercs, were used to kill a unit of Catalans (reportedly numbering 300), at a dinner party? Reportedly the Catalans later re-payed the slaughter, and chased the Alans from the boundaries of Byzantium!!

Regards,
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2011 at 16:48
Originally posted by opuslola

Using an old quote; "Is is a mystery, wrapped in an enigma?"

You do know, that Crusader/Byzanitine history states that a unit of some "Alan" mercs, were used to kill a unit of Catalans (reportedly numbering 300), at a dinner party? Reportedly the Catalans later re-payed the slaughter, and chased the Alans from the boundaries of Byzantium!!

Regards,

I would like a link to that if you can. It wouldn't be the first time thought, and happened a lot with the Alans selling their services. I can only guess they were very much appreciated at one time. It had been noted at one time that the Alans were fighting on almost all sides. One of the most famous was at the Battle of the Catalaunian Plains.
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2011 at 14:14
Dear TADR,

I will begin to access my sources for my above post, and you will receive all of the information I have been able to gather (very little) in a later post here.

As regards you last, above, I have investigated the Catalaunian Plains battle in the past, mostly because I was looking for some explanation for the use of the base word "Catalan?" in the naming of the area. I.e. Catalonian/Catalaunian.

Just what is your evidence concerning the use of Alans at this battle? Is it the use of the word "Alani", or a variation thereof?

I would assume that you used some source such as this one?

http://members.gcronline.com/attila/chalons.htm

"After he secured the Rhine, Attila moved into central Gaul and put Orleans under siege. Had he gained his objective, he would have been in a strong position to subdue the Visigoths in Aquitiane, but Aetius had put together a formidable coalition against the Hun. Working frenetically, the Roman leader had built a powerful alliance of Visigoths, Alans and Burgundians, uniting them with their traditional enemy, the Romans, for the defense of Gaul. Even though all parties to the protection of the Western Roman Empire had a common hatred of the Huns, it was still a remarkable achievement on Aetius' part to have drawn them into an effective military relationship."

But, it seems the Alans, were a group from somewhere in Central Europe, whilst the Catalans, at least from the sources available, seem to have originated in what we now call Spain, and the area usually under the control of the powerful city/state of Barcelona.

Is it possible that a group of "Alans/Alani" had accompanied either the Visigoths, or the Vandals upon their earlier movement into and out of Spain?

Or were the Alans and Catalans two totally seperate groups?

You might well note that from this site; http://www.earth-history.com/Europe/Goths/jordanes-goths-07-batlle-catalaunian.htm

The Alani/Alans are not specifically mentioned, although they might well fall into the "other" category?

But actually the Alans/Alani?, are mentioned in the above site, but via these words;

"But before we set forth the order of the battle itself, it seems needful to relate what had already happened in the course of the campaign, for it was not only a famous struggle but one that was complicated and confused. Well then, Sangiban, king of the Alani, smitten with fear of what might come to pass, had promised to surrender to Attila, and to give into his keeping Aureliani, a city of Gaul wherein he dwelt.

When Theodorid and Aëtius learned of this, they cast up great earthworks around that city before Attila's arrival and kept watch over the suspected Sangiban, placing him with his tribe in the midst of their auxiliaries. Then Attila, king of the Huns, was taken aback by this event and lost confidence in his own troops, so that he feared to begin the conflict. While he was meditating on flight--a greater calamity than death itself--he decided to inquire into the future through soothsayers."

So, just what is the truth?

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 21-Jul-2011 at 14:27
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2011 at 19:38
Dear TADR,

Indeed I have posted about the subject already here at this very site. The answer can be found under the "Alternative History" section concerning the findings concerning fighting men in the number of 300 who can be found in ancient accounts.

An address to these posts is this; http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28895

This is a very involved subject, directed to point out the massive use of 300 warriors/knights in a variety of times and places whereby certain repetative points seem to merge!

Thus, at this site;

http://hispanismo.org/english/11502-almogavars-james-i-peter-iii-catalonia-aragon.html

You can read about the band of 300 Frankish knights under the leadership of Hugh deBrienne!;

"At the Battle of Gagliano (Sicily) against the three hundred handpicked French knights ironically calling themselves the Knights of Death, more than a hundred of them fell victim to these tactics. The Almogavars "went about amongst them as if they were walking in a garden" (Muntaner, 458)."

Other accounts say that the number of the Knights of Death were 300! The Almogavars (Alms givers?) also known as the Catalan Company, had a number of accounts of the loss of 300, first of all when they were mercs under the employ of the Greeks of Constantinople, 300 of their numbers were reportedly slain at a banquet by the other mercs of the Greeks which are known to us today as the Alans! Let's see we have the "alans" fighting the "Cat-alans!", this, in its self, is strange!

But in another element soon there after, these same Catalans were involved as mercs employed by Waltier/Walter/Gautier de Brienne in his attempt to take back his lands in Greece proper!

A "Duke of Athens" by the name of Jean/John/Jacques? de la Roche, is also said to have attacked a larger force with his 300 kinghts!

Also; http://books.google.com/books?id=lhDPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA146&lpg=PA146&dq=brienne+gagliano&source=bl&ots=iN6ohpxawO&sig=OP54oLaTfVdqKnd7NAw344rWQUo&hl=en&ei=XtrDS4iWHcK78gb8883ICA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBIQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

regarding the Knights Templar, it seems this site states that in 1268 CE, the Knights were underthe control of the Catalans!

http://www.fortunecity.com/tatooine/acegarp/898/6411789.htm

More material can be found amongst these sites!

http://www.ask.com/web?&o=101881&l=dis&q=hugh%20deBrienne%20and%20catalans

Note that preparations for the eighth Crusade, reportedly began in 1268 CE! See;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Crusade

If you don't find your answer amongst all of my posts there, then I will try to find the exact posts, etc.!

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 23-Jul-2011 at 19:41
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2011 at 01:17
Originally posted by opuslola

Dear TADR,

Indeed I have posted about the subject already here at this very site. The answer can be found under the "Alternative History" section concerning the findings concerning fighting men in the number of 300 who can be found in ancient accounts.

An address to these posts is this; http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28895

This is a very involved subject, directed to point out the massive use of 300 warriors/knights in a variety of times and places whereby certain repetative points seem to merge!

Thus, at this site;

http://hispanismo.org/english/11502-almogavars-james-i-peter-iii-catalonia-aragon.html

You can read about the band of 300 Frankish knights under the leadership of Hugh deBrienne!;

"At the Battle of Gagliano (Sicily) against the three hundred handpicked French knights ironically calling themselves the Knights of Death, more than a hundred of them fell victim to these tactics. The Almogavars "went about amongst them as if they were walking in a garden" (Muntaner, 458)."

Other accounts say that the number of the Knights of Death were 300! The Almogavars (Alms givers?) also known as the Catalan Company, had a number of accounts of the loss of 300, first of all when they were mercs under the employ of the Greeks of Constantinople, 300 of their numbers were reportedly slain at a banquet by the other mercs of the Greeks which are known to us today as the Alans! Let's see we have the "alans" fighting the "Cat-alans!", this, in its self, is strange!

But in another element soon there after, these same Catalans were involved as mercs employed by Waltier/Walter/Gautier de Brienne in his attempt to take back his lands in Greece proper!

A "Duke of Athens" by the name of Jean/John/Jacques? de la Roche, is also said to have attacked a larger force with his 300 kinghts!

Also; http://books.google.com/books?id=lhDPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA146&lpg=PA146&dq=brienne+gagliano&source=bl&ots=iN6ohpxawO&sig=OP54oLaTfVdqKnd7NAw344rWQUo&hl=en&ei=XtrDS4iWHcK78gb8883ICA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBIQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

regarding the Knights Templar, it seems this site states that in 1268 CE, the Knights were underthe control of the Catalans!

http://www.fortunecity.com/tatooine/acegarp/898/6411789.htm

More material can be found amongst these sites!

http://www.ask.com/web?&o=101881&l=dis&q=hugh%20deBrienne%20and%20catalans

Note that preparations for the eighth Crusade, reportedly began in 1268 CE! See;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Crusade

If you don't find your answer amongst all of my posts there, then I will try to find the exact posts, etc.!

Regards,


Thank you, this information is much appreciated, and I will see what I find amongst it that might take me further. 
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2011 at 17:15
I am not thinking quite clearly right now, but the information you seek might well be in the literature concerning the writings of Muntaner?, who wrote a history of the Catalan Companies.

Actuallly I am OK, and as it seems there is at least one place where my words are considered as correct;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Company

"On 30 April 1305, he was slain along with 300 cavalry and 1,000 infantry by the Alans, another group of mercenaries at the service of the Emperor. Roger had been in Adrianopolis (modern Edirne) attending a banquet offered by Emperor Michael. The emperor later attacked Gallipoli attempting to conquer the city from the remnants of the Company under the command of Berenguer de Entença who had arrived with 9 Catalan galleys. The attack was unsuccessful, but it largely decimated the Company. Berenguer de Entença was captured by the Genoese shortly after, and later liberated. The Company had only 206 horsemen, 1,256 foot soldiers left and no clear leader when Emperor Michael, trusting in his numerical superiority attacked, only to be defeated in Apros in July 1305.

In 1305, Catalan leader Bernat de Rocafort formed an alliance with Theodore Svetoslav of Bulgaria. De Rocafort married the Bulgarian tsar's sister and several joint Bulgarian–Catalan raids of Byzantine-ruled Thrace were organized as a result.[1] The Company proceeded to devastate the regions of Thrace and Macedonia for the next two years, including an attack on Mount Athos. Until recently no Catalans were allowed on the Athos peninsula by the Athonite monks. However in the past few years and following the payment of reparations by the Catalan government this situation has changed."

You might well see the mention of "300 Alans killed by the Catalans" here;

http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/~kuijt/dba165/dba165.html

"The Company arrived at Constantinople in September 1303. They had no sooner arrived in Constantinople than they got involved in a bloody melee in the street with the local Genoese community. Soon afterwards they were shipped to Anatolia to reinforce Philadelphia, a Byzantine city entirely surrounded by the Turks for some years. A large force of Alan cavalry (survivors of Nicomedia) were sent with them but didn't stay long. In short order there was a falling out between the Catalans and the Alans, and a sharp skirmish in which the Alans suffered 300 casualties including the son of their chieftain. Afterwards all but 1000 of the Alans left."

This is certainly a strange post from the above site?

"The Byzantine emperor then attempted to stop the Catalans with a large army, but was defeated at Apros in 1305; in part because the Alans, fearful of Catalan wrath at the loss of de Flor, deserted the Byzantine army in the field. The Catalans then advanced to Rhaidestos, which became a center of operations for an ineffectual blockade of Constantinope and raids throughout Thrace for approximately two years (1306-1307 AD)."

Please note just whom deserted the Byzantines army above! Please compare it to the dessertation of the Catalan mercs from the Franks under deBrienne, when facing the rebellious Catalans at Halmyros / Kephissos / Cephissos!

Regards,





Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 24-Jul-2011 at 19:45
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  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2011 at 05:27
Originally posted by opuslola

As regards you last, above, I have investigated the Catalaunian Plains battle in the past, mostly because I was looking for some explanation for the use of the base word "Catalan?" in the naming of the area. I.e. Catalonian/Catalaunian
 
The etymology of Catalaunians in Catalaunians Plains is fairly well attested as coming from the name of the Catalauni, a Gaulish tribe client of the Remi.
Durocatalaunos was the name of the town of Chalons en Champagne, attested in the Antonine Itinerary. It should not be related to the Alans.

Originally posted by opuslola

You might well note that from this site; http://www.earth-history.com/Europe/Goths/jordanes-goths-07-batlle-catalaunian.htm

The Alani/Alans are not specifically mentioned, although they might well fall into the "other" category?
Yes, they are specifically mentioned (please read again, they are mentioned 3 times Wink), as they are mentioned in almost all the texts about this battle.
 
About the etymology of Catalonia, as you can read in Wiki, various origins are supposed, and there is no obvious answer, but I think an origin coming from the Alans is hardly probable.
 

 
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