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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Here's Another Arizona Strange One For CV
    Posted: 03-May-2011 at 11:34
Has anyone heard of or know a source for information re Lead Crosses, found in Arizona.  I have been able to find some pics and a supposed translation of the inscriptions, but not much else.  I can't find anything that tells me who and when.
 


 

 
 
Follows is a translation of the inscriptions by a local Tucson teacher, Laura Ostrander.
 

The Tucson Lead Crosses, Inscription Translation

When the "Lead Crosses" were first found, the inscriptions were translated by a local Tucson teacher, Laura Ostrander. Here is the text of that translation. It tells a very strange and interesting story. - Jack 


On the cross arm at the left is a profile of a head with the words "Britain,
Albion, Jacob." In the center is another head profile with the words
"Romans, Actim, Theodore." On the right is another head profile with the
words "Gaul, Seine, Israel." On the vertical beam of the lead cross is this
inscription. "Counsels of great cities together with seven hundred soldiers
A.D. 800, Jan. 1." "We are borne over the sea to Calalus, an unknown land
where Toltezus Silvanus ruled far and wide over a people. Theodore
transferred his troops to the foot of the city Rhoda and more than seven
hundred were captured. No gold is taken away. Theodore, a man of great
courage, rules for fourteen years. Jacob rules for six. With the help of
God, nothing has to be feared. In the name of Israel, OL."

The second cross has the following inscription: "Jacob renews the city. With
God's help Jacob rules with mighty hand in the manner of his ancestors. Sing
to the Lord. May his fame live forever. OL.

The third cross yielded this inscription. "From the egg (the beginning) A.D.
700 to A.D. 900. Nothing but the cross. While the war was raging, Israel
died. Pray for the soul of Israel. May the earth lie light on thee. He adds
glory to ancestral glory. Israel, defender of the faith. Israel reigns
sixty-seven years."

The next inscription. "Israel II rules for six. Israel III was twenty-six
years old when he began to rule. Internecine war. To conquer or die. He
flourishes in ancestral honor day by day."

The next inscription. "A.D. 880. Israel III, for liberating the Toltezus,
was banished. He was first to break the custom. The earth shook. Fear
overwhelmed the hearts of men in the third year after he had fled. They
betook themselves into the city and kept themselves within their walls. A
dead man thou shall neither bury nor burn in the city. Before the city a
plain was extending. Hills rung the city. It is a hundred years since Jacob
was king. Jacob stationed himself in the front line. He anticipated
everything. He fought much himself. Often smote the enemy. Israel turned his
attention to the appointment of priests. We have life, a people widely
ruling. OL."

The next inscription. "A.D. 895. An unknown land. Would that I might
accomplish my task to serve the king. It is uncertain how long life will
continue. There are many things which can be said while the war rages. Three
thousand were killed. The leader with his principal men are captured.
Nothing but peace was sought. God ordains all things. OL."
---------------------------- 



Man! If it was easy, we wouldn't need Archaeologists
.
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Posts: 403 		  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2011 at 14:35
Hum, perhaps I should look for my book of Mormon, but I am afraid I threw it out, thinking I would have no use for it.  However, unless these crosses are hoax, perhaps we should take the book of Mormon more seriously? 

The crosses are tied to a lot of mythology including King Author and Freemasons.   I don't know if the following site is talking about myth or history, but it is related to the artifacts found in Arizona and involving the university. 

http://miriamhakedosha.blogspot.com/2008/02/calalus-jewish-catholic-state-in-early.html

Evidently the folks at the university are taking these finds seriously.

http://www.conspiracybomb.com/puzzlingrelics2.htm

The Book of Mormon is suppose to be the record of a Jewish settlement in the Americas. 

http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/explanation?lang=eng



Edited by Athena - 03-May-2011 at 15:41
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Forgery or Hoax, 99.9% assured. It really has nothing about it that raises an idea of legitimacy.
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Yep...knew about them but am on line with the most likely forgery conclusion....No tests iirc have been done recently to prove veracity. I am no longer even aware of their location.
 
PUZZLING "RELICS" DUG UP IN ARIZONA STIR SCIENTISTS
================================================================
Purport To Chronicle The Arrival Of Roman Jews There In 775 A.D.
----------------------------------------------------------------
[New York Times, December 13, 1925]
 
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It seems that I must side with unclefred, and CV concerning the above, although I have not thrown out my two books of Mormon!

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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2011 at 10:42

This is a great example of what a politically charged issue can do to Archaeology.  No one's actually seen the artifacts, there has been no real science done that I know of, yet it's a hoax.  Why? Could it be a holdover religous predjudice against the Mormons, or the Jews?  Something like this stirs agendas.  It leaves the realm of science and is totally taken over by Politics.  I clicked on that last link that CV put up.  In it is a list of "Experts" who passed judgement on the artifacts in question in 1925.  After reading it, I'd bet that not one of them had seen the site or the artifacts, or even a copy of the dig notes.

I haven't been able to find information as to the location of these items now.  Lead, when in the ground, forms an unmistakable patina.  Today's Science could quickly prove or disprove authenticity.
However, I don't think that would change the minds of everyone.  What? Jews in the American Southwest?  Before the Vikings?  Impossible!!!
However I will note here that these aren't the only examples of this "Impossibility".
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There is a simple explanation: these crosses were taken from an abandoned shipwreck like a Viking longship or medieval cog which drifted to American shores. The Middle Ages was a time of spurious prophesies with deliberately vague language with frequent warnings of future wars or natural disasters. Priests often wrote out their visions, added an earlier date and attributed them to Bede, Merlin or one of the Classical prophets. Long before Columbus people suspected there was land to the west of Europe. They believed they could reach Asia that way: China or Cathay was known to be a land rich in gold with many ancient walled cities

Edited by Nick1986 - 04-May-2011 at 11:26
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2011 at 11:33
Originally posted by Nick1986

There is a simple explanation: these crosses were taken from an abandoned shipwreck like a Viking longship or medieval cog which drifted to American shores. The Middle Ages was a time of spurious prophesies with deliberately vague language with frequent warnings of future wars or natural disasters. Priests often wrote out their visions, added an earlier date and attributed them to Bede, Merlin or one of the Classical prophets. Long before Columbus people suspected there was land to the west of Europe. They believed they could reach Asia that way: China or Cathay was known to be a land rich in gold with many ancient walled cities
 
 
Found and carried from the East Coast to Arizona by whom? And why?
 
 
 
 
While Archaeology is a science it is nonetheless an interpretive one.I found this in my travels.        In all cases where interpretation is involved, the interpreter’s assumptions come into play. Take the example of the 1980, discovery of what appeared to be the possible tombs and remains of Jesus Christ and his family near Talpiot, Jerusalem. Randy Ingermanson and Jay Cost ran a statistical analysis of the predicted odds that the tomb was indeed that of Jesus depending of the assumptions researchers with different preconceived notions would likely make. [21] The results are as follows (ranging from improbable to probable):

Type of Researcher

Odds the Tomb was Jesus’

A historian with strict Christian beliefs, believing Jesus ascended to heaven

impossible (there would be no tomb with remains if Jesus ascended to heaven)

A historian leaning against the tomb being Jesus’ tomb

1:5,000,000

A ‘typical’ historian

1:19,000

A historian leaning towards the tomb Jesus’ tomb

1:1,100

A historian who desperately wanted the tomb to be Jesus’ tomb

1:18

From this we see that archaeology is susceptible to the pre-existing viewpoints of its practitioners. With respect to Pre-Columbian influence in America, it seems that mainstream archaeologists are operating under a very old, yet firmly rooted mandate:

“The Vatican has been long accused of keeping artifacts and ancient books in their vast cellars, without allowing the outside world access to them. … Sadly, there is overwhelming evidence that something very similar is happening with the Smithsonian Institution. The Smithsonian [, under Major John Wesley Powell,] began to promote the idea that Native Americans, at that time being exterminated in the Indian Wars, were descended from advanced civilizations and were worthy of respect and protection. They also began a program of suppressing any archaeological evidence that lent credence to the school of thought known as Diffusionism, a school which believes that throughout history there has been widespread dispersion of culture and civilization via contact by ship and major trade routes. The Smithsonian opted for the opposite school, known as Isolationism. Isolationism holds that most civilizations are isolated from each other and that there has been very little contact between them, especially those that are separated by bodies of water. In this intellectual war that started in the 1880s, it was held that even contact between the civilizations of the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys were rare…” [22]

Until archaeologists revisit this antiquated and blinding mandate they operate under, it is unlikely the truth of the matter of Semitic interaction with Pre-Columbian America will be resolved to any satisfaction.
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Posts: 17084 		  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2011 at 12:01
Dating on crosses,was from the time of Charlemagne or close!If those were no fakes?
http://www.thenagain.info/webchron/westeurope/charlcrown.html
and if those crosses have sourced since than,than my theory that vikings were used as fleet those days would be true one!Star


Edited by medenaywe - 04-May-2011 at 12:02
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If "Those days" were the period of 900-1400 CE, as the Fomenko Group proposes, then I will agree with medenaywe! If indeed our current chronological view is actually a convoluted folding of events, seen from differing perspectives, and then folded into seperate events which are also seperated by hundreds or thousands of years, then the Vikings could well be both the Phoenicians, Heruli, and others.

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Why history have been rewritten than?What did Fomenko say about it?
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Originally posted by opuslola

If "Those days" were the period of 900-1400 CE, as the Fomenko Group proposes, then I will agree with medenaywe! If indeed our current chronological view is actually a convoluted folding of events, seen from differing perspectives, and then folded into seperate events which are also seperated by hundreds or thousands of years, then the Vikings could well be both the Phoenicians, Heruli, and others.

Ron
 
 
 
                                         ConfusedConfusedConfusedConfusedConfused
 
 
Are you sure you weren't ever a White House Press Secretary?
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Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by Nick1986

There is a simple explanation: these crosses were taken from an abandoned shipwreck like a Viking longship or medieval cog which drifted to American shores. The Middle Ages was a time of spurious prophesies with deliberately vague language with frequent warnings of future wars or natural disasters. Priests often wrote out their visions, added an earlier date and attributed them to Bede, Merlin or one of the Classical prophets. Long before Columbus people suspected there was land to the west of Europe. They believed they could reach Asia that way: China or Cathay was known to be a land rich in gold with many ancient walled cities


 
 

Found and carried from the East Coast to Arizona by whom? And why?

By the Indians. Who else? If the crosses are genuine the only plausible explanation is as follows: a medieval ship (Vikings taking the crosses as booty or later medieval merchants keeping them as lucky relics) is blown off course, abandoned by its crew who are unable to retrieve it (or die of sickness or starvation) and drifts, full of corpses, to the Americas. The Indians find the wreck, plunder it, and trade the trinkets with other tribes in return for something like furs, weapons or food. The next fierce storm dashes the abandoned ship to pieces and the tide disperses its contents or buries them deep in the sand.
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Posts: 17084 		  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2011 at 15:00
Nick,in text that was written on crosses,it had been spoken by narrator,something that we knew as ancient history.Were those people time travelers maybe?It's a little bit confusing!


Edited by medenaywe - 04-May-2011 at 15:05
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Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by Nick1986

There is a simple explanation: these crosses were taken from an abandoned shipwreck like a Viking longship or medieval cog which drifted to American shores. The Middle Ages was a time of spurious prophesies with deliberately vague language with frequent warnings of future wars or natural disasters. Priests often wrote out their visions, added an earlier date and attributed them to Bede, Merlin or one of the Classical prophets. Long before Columbus people suspected there was land to the west of Europe. They believed they could reach Asia that way: China or Cathay was known to be a land rich in gold with many ancient walled cities
 
 
Found and carried from the East Coast to Arizona by whom? And why?
 
 
 
 
While Archaeology is a science it is nonetheless an interpretive one.I found this in my travels.        In all cases where interpretation is involved, the interpreter’s assumptions come into play. Take the example of the 1980, discovery of what appeared to be the possible tombs and remains of Jesus Christ and his family near Talpiot, Jerusalem. Randy Ingermanson and Jay Cost ran a statistical analysis of the predicted odds that the tomb was indeed that of Jesus depending of the assumptions researchers with different preconceived notions would likely make. [21] The results are as follows (ranging from improbable to probable):

Type of Researcher

Odds the Tomb was Jesus’

A historian with strict Christian beliefs, believing Jesus ascended to heaven

impossible (there would be no tomb with remains if Jesus ascended to heaven)

A historian leaning against the tomb being Jesus’ tomb

1:5,000,000

A ‘typical’ historian

1:19,000

A historian leaning towards the tomb Jesus’ tomb

1:1,100

A historian who desperately wanted the tomb to be Jesus’ tomb

1:18

From this we see that archaeology is susceptible to the pre-existing viewpoints of its practitioners. With respect to Pre-Columbian influence in America, it seems that mainstream archaeologists are operating under a very old, yet firmly rooted mandate:

“The Vatican has been long accused of keeping artifacts and ancient books in their vast cellars, without allowing the outside world access to them. … Sadly, there is overwhelming evidence that something very similar is happening with the Smithsonian Institution. The Smithsonian [, under Major John Wesley Powell,] began to promote the idea that Native Americans, at that time being exterminated in the Indian Wars, were descended from advanced civilizations and were worthy of respect and protection. They also began a program of suppressing any archaeological evidence that lent credence to the school of thought known as Diffusionism, a school which believes that throughout history there has been widespread dispersion of culture and civilization via contact by ship and major trade routes. The Smithsonian opted for the opposite school, known as Isolationism. Isolationism holds that most civilizations are isolated from each other and that there has been very little contact between them, especially those that are separated by bodies of water. In this intellectual war that started in the 1880s, it was held that even contact between the civilizations of the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys were rare…” [22]

Until archaeologists revisit this antiquated and blinding mandate they operate under, it is unlikely the truth of the matter of Semitic interaction with Pre-Columbian America will be resolved to any satisfaction.

 
Tis a good review of historiography101 and the research method...you hear me preach objectivity constantly...I will always do that...base line assumptions, pre-dispositons and the bias of formative cultural experience versus what's being studied will always be a bane...and I concur that the method is heavilly influenced in an interpretative fashion.....no denying it.
 
But in this case with the artifcacts apparently missing and given previous evidential examples of hoaxes as determined by just as many experts as those layman who would authenticate...I got no choice but to either go with hoax or unproven. Note what I wrote initially.
 
I would very much like to see them reappear and be tested. Till then I'll simply say or rephrase that the jury is still out.


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 04-May-2011 at 15:36
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2011 at 15:52
Originally posted by medenaywe


Nick,in text that was written on crosses,it had been spoken by narrator,something that we knew as ancient history.Were those people time travelers maybe?It's a little bit confusing!

On the contrary: if you eliminate the impossible there's nothing confusing about it. Prophesies would sound very similar to narratives (both could be written in the present tense). If these are genuine (and not a modern forgery) they would have been written by a European priest (not a time traveler or early Jewish colonist who would have probably spoken Yiddish and used the Hebrew alphabet) to serve some political purpose or for financial gain

Edited by Nick1986 - 04-May-2011 at 15:56
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"Dr. Neil Judd of the Smithsonian Institution visited the
excavation and completely excavated two of the articles himself.
He stated that the articles were very old and that there was
absolutely no evidence of disturbance of the earth surrounding
them. He reached this conclusion after chopping these two pieces
loose with a miner's pick."

"All of these men have either excavated some of the finds
themselves or have been present when relics were excavated."

"The time at which the story of these crusaders relates their
history definitely establishes the period during which they
inhabited America, and is supported by the eighth century Latin
script that is used in the inscriptions."

"The place from which they came has been established by Laura
Coleman Ostrander as the Roman Empire, since they call the
unknown land Roman Calalus. They were designated by her as Roman
Jews because of the appearance of the Hebrew script of the early
centuries upon the religious standards, and because of the nature
and significance of drawings and symbols appearing upon them;
also because of the fact that the traders of the Roman Empire
during the first Christian centuries were the Jews."

"The excavation and investigation has been carried on by Messrs.
Charles E. Manier and Thomas W. Bent, with the assistance of John
S. Bent and the support of the University of Arizona, the Tucson
Chamber of Commerce and the City of Tucson. All of the
photography for publication is being done by the Irwin Studios of
Tucson, Ariz."


Perhaps information of Jewish traders would be helpful.

http://www.hebrewhistory.info/factpapers/fp042-1_traders.htm

Okay the Jews were trading with Rome, Egypt and China, and the question is, did they get as far as the America continent?   This is possible because of the movement of people through the pacific island, and the appearance of the American sweet potato in the islands.  The trade winds make this movement of people possible, and Jews looking for land, possibly a new Jerusalem, were not tied to land.  


Edited by Athena - 08-May-2011 at 02:14
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Posts: 403 		  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2011 at 02:24
Originally posted by medenaywe

Dating on crosses,was from the time of Charlemagne or close!If those were no fakes?
http://www.thenagain.info/webchron/westeurope/charlcrown.html
and if those crosses have sourced since than,than my theory that vikings were used as fleet those days would be true one!Star


Yes, the Jews had trade with Charlemagne and the Chinese.  Perhaps, more knowledge of Jewish history, banking and trade, would add credence to the story of Jews trying to survive in America.
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The Aztec story of origin is similar to the Jewish story of a search for promised land.  It makes me think of the story telephone, everyone forms a line and passes a message.  The message gets changed as it goes down the line.  For some reason these people also practiced circumcision.  Later the Mormons also searched for land and a sign from God.   Different people, same story.

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/aztecs.html

Edited by Athena - 08-May-2011 at 02:38
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2011 at 12:02
Originally posted by Nick1986

If these are genuine (and not a modern forgery) they would have been written by a European priest (not a time traveler or early Jewish colonist who would have probably spoken Yiddish and used the Hebrew alphabet) to serve some political purpose or for financial gain
 
An even more complicated, they could be relatively old forgeries.   In the 17-18th centuries, relatively  mass education allowed many people to learn about history in detail.  This led to a demand for historical "curiosities".
 
Once people realized that some would pay for historical curiosities, they lost little time in manufacturing them. Many (or most) of the potential buyers had never seen genuine artifacts so that made deception even easier.
 
For example, early Mormons (Smith?) evidently purchased what they thought were "ancient Israelite" manuscripts that would prove the Book of Mormon from a dealer in New England.  What they really purchased was an antique (17th) century forgery of the Egyptian Book of the dead.


Edited by Cryptic - 08-May-2011 at 18:05
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