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Was there a genocide in 1915?

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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Was there a genocide in 1915?
    Posted: 19-Apr-2005 at 06:03

Originally posted by Phallanx

From what I hear, these guys were well respected professors before this scandal broke out.
So what are Articles 159 and 312 of the Turkish penal code that he was accused of???

No they weren't.I knew oran pamuk and no,he was not a deeply respected professor

"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2005 at 06:09
Originally posted by iskenderani

 

### For this reason, perhaps it is better not to create a common perspective while analysing a phenomenon such as genocide, but to rely instead on two different perspectives, the perspective of the "perpetrators" and that of the "victims."' These two distinct perspectives bring to the fore distinctly different material for the reconstruction of historical events. The works that have been produced up to today about the genocide of the Armenians have essentially emanated from the perspective of the "victim group." My attempt in this regard can be understood as an investigation of the subject from the viewpoint of the "perpetrator group," a venture that could not be undertaken until now because of the past history of denial and tabooing.###

### Compared to France, Germany and other European states, Turkish nationalism and Turkish national consciousness entered the historical stage very late. There are different reasons for this belatedness. Special significance attaches to the influence of Islam and the cosmopolitan character of the Ottoman Empire. Because of its late development, Turkish nationalism was strongly influenced by Social Darwinism and racist ideologies. This intellectual background of Turkish nationalism, combined with the urgent need to catch up, made that nationalism aggressive.###

### Turkish nationalism arose as a reaction to the experience of constant humiliations. Turkish national sentiment constantly suffered from the effects of an inferiority complex. ###

### Another factor which created an image of hostile Christians was the role Islam played in this connection. On the basis of Islamic culture and its system of laws, the Moslems have always considered the Christians as an inferior minority group and have never viewed them as being equal to themselves. Thus the Christians did not enjoy equality in the Ottoman Empire. But during the stages marking the disintegration of the Empire, the reforms and economic privileges led to a change in the position of the Christians. The Turks gradually lost their social status as a superior class. They could not reconcile themselves to the idea of equality with the Christians by way of reforms, or that a Christian minority should attain a better economic position than they. This loss of status led to the rise of hate-revenge sentiments against those who were seen as responsible. The Moslems did not "peacefully" accept their steadily weakening position. This awareness of loss of status played a significant role in the enactment of the massacre against Christians, and the history of the nineteenth century provides much evidence for this. ###

This Tanner Aksam ...knows exactly what he says .

All of these can be seen in the reactions of our Turkish co-forumers.

Typical Turkish...

Isk.

 

Ok so i'll give a reaction closer to yours;

Isk,isk,isk....

No.U........r wrrrronnngggg.Tamerr akam iz nut famous or important in turky.Therefore he needs to speak of discussible matters from a wrong point of view so he can sell mooorrre.

I wil expect frm yr ysual yappiimg.

(I hope this has been a diffrent reaction since it's closer to yours)

"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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  Quote Gazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2005 at 06:10
He is not a professor.He is a writer.
Freedom is the recognition of necessity.-Friedrich Engels
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  Quote iskenderani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2005 at 06:48
Originally posted by aknc

Ok so i'll give a reaction closer to yours;

Isk,isk,isk....

No.U........r wrrrronnngggg.Tamerr akam iz nut famous or important in turky.Therefore he needs to speak of discussible matters from a wrong point of view so he can sell mooorrre.

I wil expect frm yr ysual yappiimg.

(I hope this has been a diffrent reaction since it's closer to yours)

Aku...even u can be reasonable some times , i guess....

I dont get it why u shout at me ....i simply post the explanations Tanner is giving for ur actions.....IF u think different , prove HIM wrong...

Shouting at me , does not change any fact....

By the way DO U HAVE ANY PERSON IN TURKEY WHO IS NOT IN ACCORDANCE WITH UR PROPAGANDA AND U RESPECT HIM ?????

( This will be another un-answered question....)

Isk.

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  Quote iskenderani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2005 at 07:03

Originally posted by Gazi

He is not a professor.He is a writer.

Gazi....whatever he is , even maybe the next Pope...i dont care.

He is giving some reasonable explanations for ur actions...What u have to do is to give another explanations....That simple...The outcome will be , that the explanation the most logical will prevail.

Ur problem , for all of u , is that u cant answer what he says , and u only sing "he is a dog " , he is not respected" , "he is not a scholar , he is a writer " , and some other weak excuses that make his words seem more and more true...

Try to find something better....these weak excuses , expose u as a nation , in the worst way...

Isk.

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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2005 at 09:09
Originally posted by iskenderani

Originally posted by aknc

Ok so i'll give a reaction closer to yours;

Isk,isk,isk....

No.U........r wrrrronnngggg.Tamerr akam iz nut famous or important in turky.Therefore he needs to speak of discussible matters from a wrong point of view so he can sell mooorrre.

I wil expect frm yr ysual yappiimg.

(I hope this has been a diffrent reaction since it's closer to yours)

Aku...even u can be reasonable some times , i guess....

I dont get it why u shout at me ....i simply post the explanations Tanner is giving for ur actions.....IF u think different , prove HIM wrong...

Shouting at me , does not change any fact....

By the way DO U HAVE ANY PERSON IN TURKEY WHO IS NOT IN ACCORDANCE WITH UR PROPAGANDA AND U RESPECT HIM ?????

( This will be another un-answered question....)

Isk.

If you can hear my voice there is something wierd going on

Yes.The thing is all respected history professors miraculously go with our ideas

"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2005 at 09:15
Originally posted by iskenderani

Originally posted by Gazi

He is not a professor.He is a writer.

Gazi....whatever he is , even maybe the next Pope...i dont care.

He is giving some reasonable explanations for ur actions...What u have to do is to give another explanations....That simple...The outcome will be , that the explanation the most logical will prevail.

Ur problem , for all of u , is that u cant answer what he says , and u only sing "he is a dog " , he is not respected" , "he is not a scholar , he is a writer " , and some other weak excuses that make his words seem more and more true...

Try to find something better....these weak excuses , expose u as a nation , in the worst way...

Isk.

You are wrong.The reason we call them dogs is that they lost ALL the debates they have been.The problem is thouh proven wrong they still speak

"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2005 at 14:10
The main point is that the genocides of Pontian-Greeks and Armenians must be recognised. This is one of the most massive massacres. Millions of peoples were killed. That's the rsult no matter the reasons.
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  Quote Kenaney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2005 at 14:48

Originally posted by dorian

The main point is that the genocides of Pontian-Greeks and Armenians must be recognised. This is one of the most massive massacres. Millions of peoples were killed. That's the rsult no matter the reasons.

Ok then how much whas that exactly? I WANT PROOFFFFFFF NOT NONSENS!!!!

 

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  Quote Justice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 00:57
Originally posted by Kenaney

Originally posted by dorian

The main point is that the genocides of Pontian-Greeks and Armenians must be recognised. This is one of the most massive massacres. Millions of peoples were killed. That's the rsult no matter the reasons.

Ok then how much whas that exactly? I WANT PROOFFFFFFF NOT NONSENS!!!!

 



My little Turkish friends there is really nothing to proove though since it is already prooven.The International Assosiation Of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) and the Institute for the Study of Genocide already have recognised the Genocides.So it is you Turks who are suppoed to convince us that there wasnt a Genocide not vice versa
If your Turkish Historians and you have any objections about it , why dont you just take your information and the proofs that you claim you have
and convince them that there wasn't any Genocide,instead of crying all the time.

By the way 2 weeks ago the First International Commite of  ONLY Turkish Historians to disguss the Armenian Genocide was stoped by the Turkish Goverment , and they called all the Historians there traitors.I repeat they were just only Turkish Historians.Imagine what would happen if there were Armenian or pro-Genocide Historians there.

http://www.isg-iags.org/




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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 01:30
Originally posted by Justice


Originally posted by Kenaney

Originally posted by dorian

The main point is that the genocides
of Pontian-Greeks and Armenians must be recognised. This is one of the
most massive massacres. Millions of peoples were killed. That's the rsult no matter the reasons.


Ok then how much whas that exactly? I WANT PROOFFFFFFF NOT NONSENS!!!!




My little Turkish friends there is really nothing to proove though
since it is already prooven.The International Assosiation Of Genocide
Scholars (IAGS) and the Institute for the Study of Genocide already
have recognised the Genocides.So it is you Turks who are suppoed to
convince us that there wasnt a Genocide not vice versa
If your Turkish Historians and you have any objections about it , why
dont you just take your information and the proofs that you claim you
have
and convince them that there wasn't any Genocide,instead of crying all the time.

By the way 2 weeks ago the First International Commite of ONLY
Turkish Historians to disguss the Armenian Genocide was stoped by the
Turkish Goverment , and they called all the Historians there traitors.<span style="font-weight: bold;">I repeat they were just only Turkish Historians</span>.Imagine what would happen if there were Armenian or pro-Genocide Historians there.

http://www.isg-iags.org/


The source you give also recognises greek attrocities against macedonians

"Macedonians in Greece in the Twentieth Century: Genocide, Ethnic Cleansing, Denationalization, Assimilation and Non-Recognition."

still want to use the source? and admit to all of us on greek genocide, and ethnic cleansing.. it hasnt been over a century no.. its only been 50 odd years..and still continueing...

Edited by baracuda
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  Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 03:17

LOL I think he would find another source now.

Justice how many Turks killed by Greeks and Armenians?  Any Idea, I think greeks  and  armenians just call themself human being. They dont care How many  Turks died.

 

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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 03:39
Originally posted by Murtaza

Justice how many Turks killed by Greeks and Armenians?  Any Idea, I think greeks  and  armenians just call themself human being. They dont care How many  Turks died.


Ya a lot of Turks died. Mostly from World War, and some by Armenian guerillas AFTER the massacres started. People always leave out the fact that Armenians and Greeks only started attacking after the massacres had started. Turkish deaths are recognized, while over a million Armenians and Greeks deaths are still unrecognized, and thats our whole point. We are not denying that Turks died. We do not deny history, it is the Turkish government that should work on that department.

And dont post back saying "there was no massacre" because Turkey is the only nation that doesnt agree with the Armenian Genocide, and they are the ones being accused. That should tell you something.


Edited by ArmenianSurvival
Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

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  Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 03:46

ArmenianSurvival

Infact, the countries who accept Armenian  Genocide  didnt do it because of their superior idea of humanity. They did it just politically.

Will you call russia, or france humanist nations?(I think instead of accepting our genocides, they should first accept their genocides) So dont tell me all world accept it

The other point, when this people live in harmony,(I cant say they love each  other much, but they lived togetter enough time).  Why this bloody killings happened?

And sorry no massacre. People killed each other, and not 1.500.000 Armenians died.

 



Edited by Murtaza
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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 04:16
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival



Originally posted by Murtaza

<span ="bold">Justice how many Turks killed by Greeks and Armenians?
Any Idea, I think greeks and armenians just call themself human
being. They dont care How many Turks died.


Ya a lot of Turks died. Mostly from World War, and some by Armenian
guerillas AFTER the massacres started. People always leave out the fact
that Armenians and Greeks only started attacking after the massacres
had started. Turkish deaths are recognized, while over a million
Armenians and Greeks deaths are still unrecognized, and thats our whole
point. We are not denying that Turks died. We do not deny history, it
is the Turkish government that should work on that department.

And dont post back saying "there was no massacre" because Turkey is the
only nation that doesnt agree with the Armenian Genocide, and they are
the ones being accused. That should tell you something.
</span>


You are using the word After too much, maybe you're forgetting a few facts of why the whole things started with the greeks, and the Armenians. I am not claiming anything as an argument on this matter will be useless you would continue on forever and I likewise.. so let me state to you some facts. The ottoman empire was judged against for 'attrocities' against the armenians, due to armenians wanting this court.. and the english,french support for it.. but not 1 single evidence was produced by the armenian side.. so the court not even wanting try to defend an un-win-able case dropped the hearings.. as it wouldnt have taken 30 minutes for the other side to show the opposite. So if there were no sources then for this armenian genocide.. then how is it that almost a hundred years later some books written at the fall of the ottoman empire by greek and armenian sympathisers who have no clue of the area, count as facts.. that my friend is beyond my understanding..
Coming to other reports on After, take a look at war reports , from Crimea, and from Bulgaria.. and you will see what I mean, as there are some realy viable sources Russian and English..

SO to round up, a game was played on you, as armenians, like with the present day kurds, as a result which disturbing things happened and led to your exile. In the end of course your people arent going to be happy about it. Turkey, on the other hand doesnt have anything to do with the armenians, but is afraid of its own democracy, as there are many sell-outs to various people for momentary fame, money whatever.. so turkey sensors many things, but the archive's are open, both yours and ours..

So to come to the absolute roundup of the whole genocide in 1915 idea.. its just pure politics.

Think, will the turkish saying yes, feed you?will it open borders? will it bring back people politicians killed in europe by your people? will it clean the views of others who have been bluntly looking at tale's and not facts regardless of own histories? NO. it wont, and there is absolutely no gain for you whatsoever.

But on the other hand, if dissproven it would be your total demise and ridecule...

So this politics is just going to continue on and on and on.. (like the duracell rabbit..) and on and on.... untill someday someone is going to stop, and say.. wait a minute, why argue and go after false pretenses, lets make peace its better for us.

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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 06:28
You make some good points. I know as well as you do that there are a lot of political tactics being used by every side of the genocide case. But, i do not see a gain for foreign nations to accept the genocide. There can only be loss, such as the United States and their military bases in Turkey. That is the reason the U.S. has not passed the Genocide Bill. Every U.S. President since Ronald Reagan has said there was a genocide perpetrated by the Ottoman government, but they dont pass the bill for political reasons. So in that sense, you make a very good point.

You claim that Turkish archives are open to the world and how Armenians have no factual information pertaining to the genocide. Is that why the Armenians ALWAYS bring up the genocide in EVERY discussion and the Turkish government always tries to cover it up? Why else would Turkey censor their OWN historians? How are you "open to the world", and at the same time censoring Turkish historians? I would like to know.

You said Turkey has nothing to do with the Armenians. This is wrong. When the Turkish Republic was formed, it wasnt because they founded a new land and formed a nation. They INHERITED Ottoman-controlled lands. When you inherit a nation, you inherit everything from riches and plunder to all the nations problems. The Armenian genocide was the Ottomans problem, just as you said, and now Turkey has inherited that problem. Anyone who tries to separate Turkey from the Ottoman Empire is not thinking realistically. Because these same people that say Turkey has nothing to do with Ottomans talk about Ottoman history all day and how their ancestors were so great. Thats fine. But they should also take responsibility for what their great ancestors did. Im not saying every Turk, just the government.

And the foreign sources on the genocide is the main thing thats fueling our case for genocide recognition. The British, French, German and American sources have many eyewitness accounts as well as statistics which were all different than the Turkish sources. The foreign sources were on the same pace as each other, while the Turkish sources were way off. Foreign documents helped Armenians more than anything.

Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 06:54


You claim that Turkish archives are open to the world and how Armenians have no factual information pertaining to the genocide. Is that why the Armenians ALWAYS bring up the genocide in EVERY discussion and the Turkish government always tries to cover it up? Why else would Turkey censor their OWN historians? How are you "open to the world", and at the same time censoring Turkish historians? I would like to know.

 

It is not a nice thing to say but you are completely wrong.Yes,the armenian government does bring it p in every discussion but they say "ACCEPT IT!!!!" or such things like that

They usually don't say scientific things,but sometimes they do become reasonable

My point is that we never try to cover it up,our president offered to work TOGETHER in a NEUTRAL place but you didn't take the deal,oh well no problem

We did cencsor the seminar,i know we did.That was half justified.They did no invite the historians saying "NO".So we did not cancel it but postponed it.

Remeber swizerland threatened to arrest a historian saying no?How is that?from where i see it,hat was much heavier than our act

 


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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 06:59


And the foreign sources on the genocide is the main thing thats fueling our case for genocide recognition. The British, French, German and American sources have many eyewitness accounts as well as statistics which were all different than the Turkish sources. The foreign sources were on the same pace as each other, while the Turkish sources were way off. Foreign documents helped Armenians more than anything.

How were our sources way off?You have your archives,original ones(?),i doubt armenia has any.

Ok,let's take your argument like this,your sources have witnesses;so do we

british and french... archives support your claims;so do ours

Being diffrent does not prove us to be wrong,it only makes them less belivable

I'm sorry,freshen my memory,which naion used a fake book to support thier claims?

The ones that support your claim,even bernard lewis says that they bribed him into writing that


 

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  Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 07:00

ArmenianSurvival
 

sorry but do your realy thinking this countries care Armenian lifes who lost that times?

Yes They accept and support Armenian genocide, but half of them is because

they are against the Turkey joining with EU.

Or like russia because they are adversaries of Turkey.

Or Like PKK because they are enemy of Turkey.

Did you read what Turkey write?

In fact you have nothing from some notes(And Turkey say they are false) writen by Talat Paa for genocide.

The others are for killing, And we accept killing happened in Turkey both Turks(Also  Kurds) and Armenians died.

You cannot say exile is Genocide. It was  made by USA too. Yes I is a wrong thing but not genocide.

I accept exile leaded  very  bad. But Turkish soldiers are leaded as bad as exile. We lost 70000-80000 people  at the Sarkams, because of cold.

But there is not a genocide. Turks did  not exiled All Armenians. Noone wanted to get rid of Armenians.



Edited by Murtaza
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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 07:11
QUOTE=baracuda]So this politics is just going to continue on and on and on.. (like the duracell rabbit..) and on and on.... untill someday someone is going to stop, and say.. wait a minute, why argue and go after false pretenses, lets make peace its better for us.[/QUOTE]
I honestly wonder at times.....

How on earth do you make peace with someone that has no intention of denouncing the (to use a mild term) "mistakes" of his past?

Where are any efforts seen by the Turkish goverment to disprove this issue officially in a open fora where both sides will freely support their position??
Is it possible that you already have forgotten about an idependant attempt by scholars of both sides that was closed down by the Turkish goverment and the Turkish  scholars were once again labeled 'traitors'???

You have a perculiar way of inventing little conspiracies when it comes to judging your country's past. Now you discredit all existing documents, photos and archives by saying that the issue was presented in books only some hundred years later.

"Genocide idea"???
"pure politics"???

You are doing nothing different than you always have, clearly not accepting the fact that innocent people were killed by a facsistic goverment/ruler. A Genocide may not have happened but a Democide (same thing really just smaller amount of people massacred) definitely did.
How is any massacre titled "politics"???


To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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