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Was there a genocide in 1915?

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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Was there a genocide in 1915?
    Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 15:06

Turkey, as an ethnicity, is of course not responsible for anything. The average Turk and the average Armenian have usually gotten along throughout Ottoman history. But Turkey, as a government, is responsible. You cannot say "Turks were one of the most advanced people during the reign of the Ottoman Empire" and then go and say "Turkey has no responsibility for what the Ottoman empire did." Its complete contradiction. You cannot only take the good aspects and take pride in them, you also have to be responsible for your wrongdoings. By you i mean the Turkish government, not literally you or your people as a whole.

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 15:48
Turkey has been a republic government since 1923. Why are they held responsible?
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 16:24
Germany also became a republic after WW2. The German Government paid reparations for the Hitler's regime.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 16:43
That was up to the West German republic to chose so. There was overwhelming proof of the Nazi "genocide". After WWI, the British tried the Ottoman government and found them innocent of state sanctioned "massacres". The term genocide did not exist as a legal entity since the term was later a UN descritption. Even if the term was viable, there was no proof that the Ottoman ordered the extermination of the Armenian subjects.

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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 17:23

Originally posted by Seko

Turkey has been a republic government since 1923. Why are they held responsible?

Because, the main governing body was Turkish people. Also, present day Turkey grew OUT of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.. It was not Just called the Ottoman Empire, it was the Turkish Ottoman Empire

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 17:45

Part of my post from April 11 in "ArmenianSurvival" Modern History.

 

The Ottoman Empire not only defended itself against its neighbors, but against Turks also. In the last days of the empire, while under allied occupation, the Ottoman government tried to arrest Mustafa Kemal and the Nationalists. Had they been succesfull then there would not be a Republic of Turkey (at least in the current form anyway). In that same time the British, French, Italian, Armenian, and Greek governments tried to impose their will on the Ottoman government, especially as benfactors of the Sevres Treaty. The allied forces parcelled out territories from Ottoman Anatolia. While this was going on the Nationalists under Gazi Mustafa Kemal formed a government of their own. They gathered any able bodied persons that were willing to join their cause. They formed armies to defend their homeland. Eventually creating modern day Turkey. That is why I do not see any link what-so-ever with what the Ottoman Empire is charged with and what current dispora want from Turkey.

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  Quote iskenderani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 18:15

Helen Davenport Gibbons

THE RED RUGS OF TARSUS


Table of contents
The cover, pages i-vi (title, copyright notice, etc) | Preface | Table of contents (as in the book)
1. Half way through the first year | 2. Three Christmases and the seven sleepers
3. A visit to Adana | 4. Great expectations | 5. Round about Tarsus
6. Hamlet and the gathering of the storm clouds | 7. The storm approaches
8. The storm breaks | 9. Life and death | 10. Why? | 11. Abdul Hamids last day
12. The Young Turks and the toy fleet | 13. A new life 14. Off to Egypt


[ page 162 ]

THE YOUNG TURKS AND

THE

TOY FLEET

Mersina,
April twenty-ninth.

Dear Mother:

I suppose that baby doesn't come because I 'm too busy and the time is not propitious. There are more important things to think about and to do. Sounds unmaternal and abnormal, does n't it? But just like other girls I had my dreams of how these days of waiting would be. And up to several weeks ago I plied the needle vigorously, and thought a lot about how many of each wee garment would be necessary, and what sort of blanket would wash best. I hesitated a long time before deciding which dress was the prettiest for IT to be baptized in. Now I don't know how many garments I have.

[ page 163 ]

I have n't even made a complete inventory of what we brought from Tarsus. We are too engrossed in the duties and problems that each day brings forth to think at all about the morrow. Honestly, Mother, during the four days we have been in Mersina, maternity has n't had much of a place in my mindI mean, of course, my own maternity. Heaven knows we have the babies coming in abundance all the time around us, and there is everything to be done for them.

I wrote you of the landing of the Turkish regiments from Beirut on the day we learned of Abdul Hamid's deposition. They went to Adana the same day, and started that night a second massacre more terrible than the first. The Armenians had given up their arms. On the advice of the foreign naval officerstrusting in the warships here at Mersinathey accepted the assurance of the Government that the "rioting" was over. So they were defenseless when the Young Turk regiments came.

[ page 164 ]

The butchery was easier. I spare you details. I wish to God I could have spared them to myself. Most of our Adana friends who escaped the first massacre must have been killed since last Saturday. The few who have reached Mersina are like the messengers that came to Job. Adana is still hell. The soldiers set fire to the French Mission buildings, and are going each night after other foreign property. The American Girls' Boarding School was evacuated. The teachers and some girls who were saved arrived yesterday, and are with us. One of our American teachers has typhoid, and reached us on a stretcher.

Herbert brought me here from Tarsus to get away from the contagion that might come from the crowding of refugees in our compound. It is now worse here than it was in Tarsus. And this morning word came to us that we must be ready at any moment to move to the French Consulate. The captains of the warships had a meeting last night, and decided to

[ page 165 ]

defend the French and German consulates in case of trouble. They notified the local authorities that if killing began in Mersina three hundred German, French and British sailors would be landed with machine-guns to protect foreigners. The idea is to gather the foreigners together, and let the Armenians and other native Christians shift for themselves. Of course we could not enter into any such scheme as that. The Dodds would under no circumstances desert those who have taken refuge with them. Anyway, we Americans are invited only by courtesy. Ships of the other Great Powers are here. American ships are supposed to be en route. But we have not seen them yet. We wonder if the new Administration is going to continue the supine policy of Mr. Roosevelt, who always refused to do anything for Americans and American interests in this part of the world. I used to think that missionaries looked to Washington for help and protection. Now I know that the

[ page 166 ]

United States is known in Turkey only by the missionaries. If our flag has any prestige or honor, it is due to men like Daddy Christie, and not to the Embassy in Constantinople or the few Consuls scattered here and there.

At the station, soldiers are turning back the Armenians who have managed to slip into trains at Adana and Tarsus. From a long distance one can see, when riding in the train, the warships in the harbor, flying the flags of the "protecting" Powers, whose obligation to make secure life and liberty for Armenians was solemnly entered into by the Treaty of Berlin. One does not expect much of Russia: the treaty was imposed upon her. But England, France, Germany, Austria, Italythey all have warships at Mersina. Armenian refugees, fleeing from the massacre at Adana, which occurred right under the nose of the English, French, Germans, Austrians and Italians, see these warships as the train draws into Mersina station. Turkish soldiers, of the same regiments

[ page 167 ]

who massacred them three days ago, bar the way. Back they must go to death.

 

Devoted to out Turkish co-forumers who have never heard of any massacres...

From an American..

Isk.



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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 22:11
Originally posted by Seko

 That is why I do not see any link what-so-ever with what the Ottoman Empire is charged with and what current dispora want from Turkey.

If you do not claim a link, Do not CLAIM the legacy of the Ottomans then, because you do not want to take the pros and CONS of the empire and the turkish people..



Edited by strategos
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 09:26
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

Turkey, as an ethnicity, is of course not responsible for anything. The average Turk and the average Armenian have usually gotten along throughout Ottoman history. But Turkey, as a government, is responsible. You cannot say "Turks were one of the most advanced people during the reign of the Ottoman Empire" and then go and say "Turkey has no responsibility for what the Ottoman empire did." Its complete contradiction. You cannot only take the good aspects and take pride in them, you also have to be responsible for your wrongdoings. By you i mean the Turkish government, not literally you or your people as a whole.

This does not explain anything.If turkey pays,armenia should pay too.

The thing is this:
Armenians attcked

The Ottomans made a very bad choice by sending them to exile

They died on the roads

Both sides have many dead

But like i said,Islamist Ottomans-Republic of tukey

Not the same

"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 09:29
Originally posted by strategos

Originally posted by Seko

 That is why I do not see any link what-so-ever with what the Ottoman Empire is charged with and what current dispora want from Turkey.

If you do not claim a link, Do not CLAIM the legacy of the Ottomans then, because you do not want to take the pros and CONS of the empire and the turkish people..

 

More wisdom from the ever loving Strategos. Forget the pro's and con's. I'll claim anything I want dude, especially if its historically accurate. Keep changing your tune! Governments vs citizens. Who do you want to take the blame for all of your allegations? The Governments or the people. Make up your mind. Or did the people rule the Ottomans and Turkish Governments. Yeah! I am proud of both the Ottomans and the Turkish Republic. They were and are leaders in their geographical areas. Nothing you can say will change that.

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  Quote iskenderani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 12:00

Seko wrote :

###  More wisdom from the ever loving Strategos. ....  Yeah! I am proud of both the Ottomans and the Turkish Republic. They were and are leaders in their geographical areas. Nothing you can say will change that. ###

Another joke from out Turkish co-forumers...

The Ottomans i.e the Turks were and are leaders in their geographical area...A brilliant phrase... So r the Chinese , in China , Japos in Japan , Mongolians in their deserts.....Greeks in Greece  , French in France ...... etc. And each one is proud of his origin and his country...Everybody is a leader in its own country...So , Turks , are no exception....they just fall under the general rule..

But the way Seko wrote it  , was the best way to draw a smile , if not a laughter from all of us..

Thanks Seko..

 Isk.



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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 13:45
You do realise tht this is not an ansewer but a cheap insult do you isk.?
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 13:50
And if you say that a first hand archive is propoganda.....
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 15:27
Originally posted by aknc

But like i said,Islamist Ottomans-Republic of tukey

Not the same


In that case you should be consequent, and you should not be proud of the great deeds of the Ottoman Empire, since it's not Turkey according to you.
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  Quote iskenderani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 17:36

Akunsu wrote:

### You do realise tht this is not an ansewer but a cheap insult do you isk.? ###

No.... Aku...i definitely DO NOT WANT to insult anyone...

But i still have the right to laugh at a good joke wherever i find it..

Isk.

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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 17:48

Originally posted by Mixcoatl

In that case you should be consequent, and you should not be proud of the great deeds of the Ottoman Empire, since it's not Turkey according to you.

Yes, thank you Mix.

Originally posted by akyncy

This does not explain anything.If turkey pays,armenia should pay too.

The thing is this:
Armenians attcked

The Ottomans made a very bad choice by sending them to exile

They died on the roads

Both sides have many dead

But like i said,Islamist Ottomans-Republic of tukey

Not the same

A couple of thousand poorly-armed Armenian revolutionaries should not incite the Ottomans to start uprooting and killing women and children. I dont care how bad their situation was in the war, they chose to join the war, and they were never attacked by women and children to take such stern action towards them. There is simply no excuse for this.

And secondly, the Armenians, as a community, did not have the means to attack the Ottomans. Tens of thousands of Armenian men were serving in the Ottoman army and fighting their war. A couple of thousand poorly-armed revolutionaries was all that was left. No one ever mentions the disarmament of the Armenians before the war started. Not enough men, and not enough weapons to even be considered anything more than just a nuisance.

Originally posted by akyncy

The Ottomans made a very bad choice by sending them to exile

So you're saying that it actually happened, but you are saying the Ottomans should be considered victims and repaid as well? I understand many Turks died during the war, this is no secret and it is tragic. But those Turks died in retaliation when the Armenians were being uprooted. And, the Turks never died from government order, seeing as we had no government and the revolutionaries were such a small percentage of our population. What happened to the Armenians was government order, and thats what constitutes as genocide.

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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 17:51
 [QUOTE=ak?p>But like i said,Islamist Ottomans-Republic of tukey

Not the same

 

Well then I guess I can have my government slaughter all the foreigners in the country, overthrow the government the next day, and the new country would not have to take any of the blame for it? Sounds good..

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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 07:46
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

Originally posted by Mixcoatl

In that case you should be consequent, and you should not be proud of the great deeds of the Ottoman Empire, since it's not Turkey according to you.

Yes, thank you Mix.

Originally posted by akyncy

This does not explain anything.If turkey pays,armenia should pay too.

The thing is this:
Armenians attcked

The Ottomans made a very bad choice by sending them to exile

They died on the roads

Both sides have many dead

But like i said,Islamist Ottomans-Republic of tukey

Not the same

A couple of thousand poorly-armed Armenian revolutionaries should not incite the Ottomans to start uprooting and killing women and children. I dont care how bad their situation was in the war, they chose to join the war, and they were never attacked by women and children to take such stern action towards them. There is simply no excuse for this.

And secondly, the Armenians, as a community, did not have the means to attack the Ottomans. Tens of thousands of Armenian men were serving in the Ottoman army and fighting their war. A couple of thousand poorly-armed revolutionaries was all that was left. No one ever mentions the disarmament of the Armenians before the war started. Not enough men, and not enough weapons to even be considered anything more than just a nuisance.

Originally posted by akyncy

The Ottomans made a very bad choice by sending them to exile

So you're saying that it actually happened, but you are saying the Ottomans should be considered victims and repaid as well? I understand many Turks died during the war, this is no secret and it is tragic. But those Turks died in retaliation when the Armenians were being uprooted. And, the Turks never died from government order, seeing as we had no government and the revolutionaries were such a small percentage of our population. What happened to the Armenians was government order, and thats what constitutes as genocide.

This is to mix. then by your claim we can rightfully claim our old lands of the ottoman empire.

Arm.Surv you are historically wrong.It is a fact that the armenians were giving the ottoman army a hard time by attcking from behind in www1.

No government order.The armenians were sent to exile because of their acts.And they weren't done by a small population.

Killing women and babies?Do you know what the armenians did?No?I thout i made it clear with my previous posts.

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  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 07:59
I dont think you can call it a genocide unless you accuse both sides of being guilty of a genocide.  It was the intention of Armenian groups, armed and encouraged by the Russians for their own purposes, to ethnically cleanse eastern Turkey of its non-Armenian population in order to create an Armenian state there, were they, the Armenians, were the minority.
Ill repeat that since many people seem to not really understand this, the Armenians sought to ethnically cleanse a part of Turkey.  Is not that a genocide?
Its ironic that it was the Armenians that started the troubles yet its the Turks who get accused of being guilty of genocide.
Yet the instigators who ultimately lost in their racist pursuit now go round the world crying genocide.  Bad losers.  They shouldnt have started it in the first place.
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 09:27
Originally posted by strategos

 [QUOTE=ak?p>But like i said,Islamist Ottomans-Republic of tukey

Not the same

 

Well then I guess I can have my government slaughter all the foreigners in the country, overthrow the government the next day, and the new country would not have to take any of the blame for it? Sounds good..

That's what we have been discussing,whether it happened or not ,concluding like that,sounds good....

"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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