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religion is the problem

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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: religion is the problem
    Posted: 08-Apr-2011 at 18:46
As "atheist" will accept You,former sinners and religious members,but here we do not need member cards!
All that have same opinion with others will be expelled out of community!Free mind,freelancers  united
in disagreement forever!Is it possible this!We are all believers no matter what's the name of God?
  
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  Quote Arab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2011 at 19:03

CV: Hmm, I stand corrected. Yes, you are absolutely right. Now that I think about it, religion can indeed change. But it cannot change completely, and will almost always keep its core beliefs. Usually religion is changed to suit the needs of greedy, corrupt governments. Organized religion is really just a form of government today.

Notice that I said organized religion. There's nothing wrong with spirituality, because that is a personal thing.


Edited by Arab - 08-Apr-2011 at 20:05
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2011 at 19:39
Originally posted by medenaywe

As "atheist" will accept You,former sinners and religious members,but here we do not need member cards!
All that have same opinion with others will be expelled out of community!Free mind,freelancers  united
in disagreement forever!Is it possible this!We are all believers no matter what's the name of God?
  
 
 
Most kind of you to offerBig smile
 
Alas... I will have to pass.... as my spirituality, as Arab aptly points out above, precludes me. For within it/that... there still remains an association with an organized religious philosphy and dogma...altho it has many times tried my patience....it was never the problem that this thread would attempt to portray it.
 
Ntl, friend Medenaywe you too.... as well as any who would promulgate free speech and beliefs....opinons... comments....counter comments and analysis are welcome to tea.
 
Just don't expect me to agree on everything.
 
Because I can guarantee you.... I would not expect you to agree with me on everything.Wink
 
Thanks
 
 
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2011 at 15:17
It is just me or does CV intend to be insulting?  Of course religions influence culture.   That is why this thread is titled "religion is the problem".   Religion is having a bad effect on our understanding of democracy and that is why I opened this thread.   However,  it is also, cultures influence religion.  
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  Quote Michael Collins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2011 at 16:33
Originally posted by Athena

It is just me or does CV intend to be insulting?  Of course religions influence culture.   That is why this thread is titled "religion is the problem".   Religion is having a bad effect on our understanding of democracy and that is why I opened this thread.   However,  it is also, cultures influence religion.  


It's just you.


Now, I'll offer up my own two cents on "Religion is the Problem".


The Golden Rule of All major world religions is - to do onto your neighbour as you would have done unto yourself. Insofar as blaming religion for anything is far too general in my opinion, different societies, different religions, different cultures, different results. However, being general about it, look at this common element in the major world religions. Is this holding humanity back? Certainly not, for it is still a goal all humanity should aspire to. Have we yet achieved a society where this is done? No. So Religion is still pushing Humanity forward, rather than pulling it back in this respect.


As Regards the use of Religion for unintended purposes, e.g. the Crusades, that is not the fault of religion, but is as has  been pointed out, the fault of humanity. It is Humans who divide and who corrupt to their wills religion. And the alternative of Humanism is even more susceptible to this, for it has no guiding principle, nothing to corrupt other than society, an all too frequent occurrence. 


With Regard science as the driving force of society, I agree, to a certain extent. The advances made by science in areas like medicine are phenomenal. However, it is a mistake to reduce all knowledge to scientific knowledge. That is known as Scientism, and it is a self defeating concept. You see, it is in of itself a philosophical position, as science has never suggested as such. And therein lies the rub. There is another form of knowledge : Philosophical. Art, Justice etc. are not the realm of Science, but of philosophy. So too are religion, and democracy philosophical, rather than scientific concepts. And so religion is far more suited to influencing and inspiring society than science, for the forms of knowledge are agreeable, they reside in the same category. To use science as the driving force would be mismatching it to that to which it is not suited.


The Problem with the philosophy of Humanism driving society has been pointed out.



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  Quote unclefred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2011 at 20:24
Very few people, if any, can live up to their ideals. Nevertheless, it is important to have them, it is what keeps us from total ego driven abandon. In the essence of Christianity is the implicit understanding of human weakness and so the gift of grace for the forgiveness of human failure.
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  Quote Michael Collins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2011 at 20:28

"To Sin is Human,

To Forgive Divine"


- Alexander Pope

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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2011 at 00:53
I think I will repeat the argument with CV.  How could he so miss the point, and ask:

"Religious and cultural belief mechanisms are intertwined Athena..you don't understand this?"

Yes, I do understand this and that is why I started this tread and titled it "religion is the problem".   We stopped transmitting our culture in 1958, and left moral training to the church.  This was a huge mistake, with terrible ramifications.   Only Christians, and not so wise folks, would have done this, because we can not have liberty without education for good moral judgment.  

It very seriously matters what we think causes things to happen, God, Satan, or bad human decisions.  To believe it is supernatural beings that make things happen is superstition, and this belief is not compatible with democracy, which needs to be based on an understanding of cause and effect.
The Tea Party appears to be Christian.   What we need to cut is military spending, not social spending.


Edited by Athena - 11-Apr-2011 at 01:01
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2011 at 10:46
Originally posted by Athena

Yes, I do understand this and that is why I started this tread and titled it "religion is the problem".   We stopped transmitting our culture in 1958, and left moral training to the church. 
 
I have a suspiscion that the cultural literary canons that were used pre 1958 also included alot of Christian thinkers as well as a Christian analysis of morality. Post 1958, the public schools continued to teach morality with an increasing emphasis on humanistic morality.  Why do you think that  pre 1958 was a "golden age" for your views? 
Originally posted by Athena

To believe it is supernatural beings that make things happen is superstition, and this belief is not compatible with democracy,
This sounds like a quote from Mao's Little Red Book.  In either case, the line of thinking is identical.   I would much rather be governed under old religious "superstitions"  than by Mao's Red Book.


Edited by Cryptic - 11-Apr-2011 at 11:25
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2011 at 12:36
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Originally posted by Arab

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Religious and cultural belief mechanisms are intertwined Athena..you don't understand this?
 
Not necessarily, especially our modern culture of today. You must understand that culture is always changing, but religion is not. One of the core elements of religion is that it cannot change. Thus, religion is pulling us back. In the future, religion and culture will not have such a close relationship.



Well said Arab... certainly insofar as you point out the ongoing difficulties with culture and religion....but yet you  err.
 
1. The numbers of adherents alone betray your contention and they would in all probabilty disgaree that within their cultural base mechanism and it's changes they can.... ntl... still proscribe to a particular faith...or not as they so choose. One example will suffice....whether I am or am not a practicing Catholic (and I'm not) has little impact on whether I might use an appreciate the worldwide net and the cultural impact it has had on communications. We....you and I... are the exact example of that ongoing at this moment....Glorious don't you think?

2. It would be more accurate to say that religion historically... has changed only slowly. Yet as I pointed out in a previous post... certainly since the age of enlightment it has indeed continued to change. Not all faiths certainly not.... but a generalized statement is in sufficient when one considers the following examples.
  

a. The original doctrinal issues that drove the schism between the RCC and the Orthodox branches of Catholism.
 
b. The division that led to the schism between the RCC and the Protestant dvisions that were created. Or even the schismatic divisions within Islam (Sunni vs Shia) whose cutlures are not.. certainly not all synonomous.
 
c. The creation of even latter branchs of quasi-protestanism... the Mormons for example.
 
d. The recent acknowledgement publically... by the RCC... of the potential of Extraterrestrial life....beings and souls (totally unheard of less then 3 years ago and would have gotten us burned quicker then poor Giordano Bruno).
 
e. The main line acceptence of the American Episcopal Church and other Protestant denominations of women and homosexuals as Priests and Pastors. (MY God man.... think of the scandal less then 30 years ago...eh. delicious.Big smile) The still ongoing raging debate within the RCC reference Priests and marriage.
 
There are many more examples my friend and while it might be apt to describe these soley as issues of doctrinal message...that's an incomplete analysis and viewpoint that will not stand scrutiny.
 
As all of them may equally be ascribed to the interwoven relationship between culture and religion with the latter changing slowly to accomodate the former....rightly or wrongly is another matter.
 
But many thanks for your kind and  perspicacious manner....
 
I would be delighted to start the tea boiling.
 
Thanks  

 
Good, now shall we discuss how Sumer, Zoroastrianism, and Egyptian theology influenced Judaism, and the division of Christianity, and again the division of Islam?   Then the division of Roman Christian that is Protestantism, and all its subdivisions?  What were the conditions of these changes?   How was this changing influenced by concepts of democracy and in turn how did the religion influence democracy in the US?   All this would make interesting discussion. 

However, the fundamental problem as I see it is the difference between believing it is supernatural beings that control what happens on earth, and not believing this.  
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2011 at 12:55
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by Athena

Yes, I do understand this and that is why I started this tread and titled it "religion is the problem".   We stopped transmitting our culture in 1958, and left moral training to the church. 
 
I have a suspiscion that the cultural literary canons that were used pre 1958 also included alot of Christian thinkers as well as a Christian analysis of morality. Post 1958, the public schools continued to teach morality with an increasing emphasis on humanistic morality.  Why do you think that  pre 1958 was a "golden age" for your views? 
Originally posted by Athena

To believe it is supernatural beings that make things happen is superstition, and this belief is not compatible with democracy,
This sounds like a quote from Mao's Little Red Book.  In either case, the line of thinking is identical.   I would much rather be governed under old religious "superstitions"  than by Mao's Red Book.


I love your reply!  You have opened whole new areas of investigation.   You really make me think and this is best reason to be here. 

Have you read Mao's Red Book?  I have not, but from what I heard of it, it is worth studying, if there is a shared interest in reading it and comparing it to Christianity and discussing what went wrong.  

What is your evidence of increased moral training?  If I understand you correctly, the sporadic efforts have played into the moral breakdown, creating amorality.  Somewhere someone said the problem with democracy is there is nothing equal to a bible.  There is no absolute belief in a God and Satan, but everything is open to reason.   This makes it much harder to have liberty without evolving into anarchy and then back to tyranny.    Especially bankers must not be amoral people, because they can bring down the whole economy.   
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2011 at 13:07
Originally posted by unclefred

Very few people, if any, can live up to their ideals. Nevertheless, it is important to have them, it is what keeps us from total ego driven abandon. In the essence of Christianity is the implicit understanding of human weakness and so the gift of grace for the forgiveness of human failure.


What of those who grow up on stories of the gods who are as imperfect as humans?  I don't think we have to believe in these gods to benefit from their lessons, and I think they benefited us when we had liberal education.  For example, there are a few stories of youthful folly, and it went with the idea that youth can act rashly.   Science is proving this out.   It also went with the idea that age 30 is still youth, and we should respect our elders.   This makes a difference in our social behaviors and how we handle matters like justice.

Can we compare that to believing people do not have God and morals, unless they attend the right Church, and there is a Satan who causes evil on earth, and there are good and evil people, and than prosecuting a youth as an adult in a criminal court, and incarcerating a youth with adults in prisons designed intentional or unintentionally (over crowding, lack of opportunity for constructive activity) for suffering and punishment.   I think we have a criminal justice system problem. 


Edited by Athena - 11-Apr-2011 at 13:09
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2011 at 13:29
Originally posted by Michael Collins

Originally posted by Athena

It is just me or does CV intend to be insulting?  Of course religions influence culture.   That is why this thread is titled "religion is the problem".   Religion is having a bad effect on our understanding of democracy and that is why I opened this thread.   However,  it is also, cultures influence religion.  


It's just you.


Now, I'll offer up my own two cents on "Religion is the Problem".


The Golden Rule of All major world religions is - to do onto your neighbour as you would have done unto yourself. Insofar as blaming religion for anything is far too general in my opinion, different societies, different religions, different cultures, different results. However, being general about it, look at this common element in the major world religions. Is this holding humanity back? Certainly not, for it is still a goal all humanity should aspire to. Have we yet achieved a society where this is done? No. So Religion is still pushing Humanity forward, rather than pulling it back in this respect.


As Regards the use of Religion for unintended purposes, e.g. the Crusades, that is not the fault of religion, but is as has  been pointed out, the fault of humanity. It is Humans who divide and who corrupt to their wills religion. And the alternative of Humanism is even more susceptible to this, for it has no guiding principle, nothing to corrupt other than society, an all too frequent occurrence. 


With Regard science as the driving force of society, I agree, to a certain extent. The advances made by science in areas like medicine are phenomenal. However, it is a mistake to reduce all knowledge to scientific knowledge. That is known as Scientism, and it is a self defeating concept. You see, it is in of itself a philosophical position, as science has never suggested as such. And therein lies the rub. There is another form of knowledge : Philosophical. Art, Justice etc. are not the realm of Science, but of philosophy. So too are religion, and democracy philosophical, rather than scientific concepts. And so religion is far more suited to influencing and inspiring society than science, for the forms of knowledge are agreeable, they reside in the same category. To use science as the driving force would be mismatching it to that to which it is not suited.

The Problem with the philosophy of Humanism driving society has been pointed out.



I have to argue your point that religion pushes us forward instead of holds us back.   Christianity has stood the way of science.  We know the church prevented Galileo from talking about what he saw in his telescope.   It prevented Chardin from publishing too.  I forget his name, it prevent the a bishop from working on his genetic studies, using peas.  In general the belief it is demons that make sick, that lead to believing the medicine the Arabs practiced with the Black arts, and lead to witch hunts, and retarded the most basic medical development of sanitation.   

Religion stood in the way of democracy.  John Locke's arguments against the rights of kings are perhaps the best known.   The bible assumes kings and slaves, as the foundation of social order, and was used to defend slavery.   However, by the time slavery was an issue in the US there was also literacy in the Greek and Roman classics and it was those with this literacy who won the struggle against slavery.  

Please, define the problem with humanism?  There is something good and something bad about everything.  Water is essential to life, but if it is polluted, it kills.  The problem with the water or with anything else needs to be defined, in order to deal with it.   

I do not believe religion is better than science for social decisions.  "The Science of Good & Evil" by Michael Shermer offers us much more hope for better decision than holy books.   However, the Hindu holy book, Bhagavad-Gita,  is pretty good.  We are animals and our morality is tied to this fact.  The more realistic we get about our nature, the better our decisions will be.   Our modern child rearing practices and are a huge improvement over trying to beat the devil out of our children.  Our justice system still has a long ways to go, and I hope the Tea Party goes down the boat.  





Edited by Athena - 11-Apr-2011 at 13:40
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2011 at 10:29
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

It's an apt point.... but more specifically... imo... that which drove the division was the 'age of enlightenment' subsequent civil reaction both affirmative and negative.. and the advent of socialist and marxist ideologies. And to a lesser degree the ongoing nationalism by varying states as they reacted to the aforementioned.
 
Just a thought.
 
Thanks


The enlightenment, following literacy in Greek and Roman classics.   This is looking to nature, not holy books, and brings us to science.  This is the point I want to stress, and is what behind the democracy in the US.  There are no chosen people, and no revelations from God.  There is nature and humans.   Morality is in our genes and we have much to learn by studying animals.   This should not be blocked out with superstition.  
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  Quote Galleon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2011 at 14:48
Originally posted by William R. Stimson

 
 

The meditation retreat was the first I'd attended since the Islamic terrorists piloted the passenger jets into the twin towers of the World Trade Center. I settled onto the cushion for the morning’s very first meditation. My whole body was a knot of tension. "How to continue writing about the religious when this is what the masses distort religion into?" was my quandary. My writing had ground to a halt since the terrorist attack. As I sat there, I felt at a loss for a way to proceed. Suddenly, out of the blue, something a woman had told me years before sprang to mind — "It takes a long time to settle the body; then, even longer still to settle the mind." I'd seen that woman sit cross-legged through several meditation periods in a row without getting up to stretch in between. When the retreat ended, I'd marveled at her ability to do this. She'd given me that reply. It seemed strange the woman's words would so suddenly pop up now, years later. I realized this was my cue. I resolved to sit through the stretch period and on into the next meditation session.

Immediately I began. I was startled to discover right off that this method didn't call for me to do anything. The doing came from some agency outside myself. I hadn't exactly ever meditated like this before. It didn't feel quite Buddhist, but almost Christian. I had a tightness in my jaw, my throat and my upper chest. I didn't concern myself with remedying the situation. I did nothing. I sat there quiet and immobile feeling like a Teresa of Avila doing her prayer of silence, faithfully awaiting the miracle. Attentively, I followed the patterns of tension in my body as they collapsed and flowed into new and different designs. I watched the tightnesses subside, gradually and of their own accord. I discovered how quickly a blockage can vanish and completely open up so that, moment by moment, I was not in the same condition anymore. A pain in my leg vanished by itself. After a time I was surprised to note the tightness in my chest and throat was gone. The bell rang, signaling the end of the meditation period. I didn't move as the others around me got up to stretch. I sat through into the next meditation period.

Well into the next period, it dawned on me at one point: my whole body was calm and relaxed. I shifted attention to my mind. Hardly a moment passed before I found it overrun with a complicated train of thought about Islamic terrorists and the military operations against them. I didn't try to stop thinking or redirect my attention towards physical sensations or the breath. I did nothing. I sat absolutely still and observed the thinking. The rapid train of thoughts gradually flowed slower and slower. In the end, just one single thought remained in my mind, like a still frame in a reel of film that had stopped moving. Then, that last thought shattered and burst open. An almost hallucinatory aliveness broke through from within it or behind it and flooded me. I sat there totally and completely at peace. An exquisite repose filled the room. I felt at one with everything and everyone all around.

Religious experience is a direct and transformative encounter with the unconditional. Religion is conditional — the opposite. This one here, that one there; this one for us, that one for them; this one believes one thing, that one something else. Every religion undertakes to condition its believers to hold certain things true, not others; to behave in one way, not another.

A religious realization is alive — a creature of the timeless instant. It comes like a lover’s unexpected touch, informs us of something we could not possibly say, and then is gone. Each world religion is a failed attempt to say what cannot be said, understand what cannot be understood. Extending all around us in every direction is a terrain where we might at any moment find ourselves standing in the light. The religions are merely maps, pieces of paper in our hands — ridiculously antique; museum pieces. Useful — yes, but in the way things in a museum are useful: to show us where we can go, what terrain great souls in the past have tread.

As often as religion delivers us into religious experience, it performs the opposite function. This is true of all the religions. Preaching peace, the Christian nations wage war. For divine love, Muslim diehards seethe with virulent hatred. In the name of the law, Jews shamelessly disregard other peoples. To impart wisdom, Zen Buddhists resort to indoctrination during their meditation retreats.

How a religious experience gets distorted into is opposite is not hard to imagine. A lone individual in the distant past is illumined with the religious dimension. He comes away with love, compassion, understanding, tolerance and a fervent desire to help others and protect and serve all living beings on earth. In an attempt to convey to others the inexpressible, he resorts to metaphor, much like a poet does. Those who write down his words and pass them on into history are hardly illumined to the same degree. They reify the metaphor into narrative. In doing so they turn divine truth on its head. The metaphor of a Promised Land, used to convey the way the world all around feels when one leads an enlightened life, is mistaken for a geographic locale. The metaphor of the ?Jihad? or Holy War, used to describe the relentless confrontation with the selfish ego necessary if one is to find his true nature, is mistaken for the butchering of innocent practitioners of a different religious tradition. The metaphor of walking on water, used to illustrate the ease, peace and repose with which the selfless one moves with such a light step, so unburdened of himself, wherever he goes, is taken literally as an example of a supernatural miracle that happened in the historical past.

Religion is all about belief. Yet so much of what we believe, especially about the unfathomable religious dimension, is a mistake — a mistranslation, a reification. In international New York, I see more and more evidence every day that this is being realized by people from all over the world. In America, in Europe — in the East and the West — the old thought constructs of the religions are falling away and out from underneath them is coming the light that gave rise to these traditions in the first place and caused them to touch people's hearts and spread across the globe. This illumination is real, more real than the religions themselves, and it unites all the traditions and all mankind into one single brotherhood.

 
 
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2011 at 13:36
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by Athena

Yes, I do understand this and that is why I started this tread and titled it "religion is the problem".   We stopped transmitting our culture in 1958, and left moral training to the church. 
 
I have a suspiscion that the cultural literary canons that were used pre 1958 also included alot of Christian thinkers as well as a Christian analysis of morality. Post 1958, the public schools continued to teach morality with an increasing emphasis on humanistic morality.  Why do you think that  pre 1958 was a "golden age" for your views?  [QUOTE=Athena]


Humanism is the intellectual movement that stemmed from the study of Greek and Roman classics classics during the Middle Ages.  This is the church using the classics for education to validate it is the authority on truth.  This became scholasticism and eventual became a rebellion against authority.  I am not sure this was promoted by the 1958 National Defense Education Act, but I will have start looking for text books published during this time to check that out.   The social changes following the 1958 act did lead to social upheaval we and have not worked our through it yet.  Developing humanism, sure is not the result of budget cuts and federal demands of education.  

Christianity without education for democracy is not the same as Christianity with education for democracy.  So yes, Christians strongly influenced public education.   But these were Christians well educated for democracy and the violent history that assured us freedom of religion and freedom of speech.  They no longer exist in the seats of power. 

I came to God through old text books, but this God is free from religious dogma.   It is
God as an Athenian may have contemplated god, and an understanding of morality that is PAGAN  Athenian and Roman considerations of morality that far sure are not longer a part of daily consciousness.   One of the worst problems with Judaism and Christianity is the repeated lie that the world was without morals until the Hebrews got a special message from God about morals.   No, no, no, a moral is a matter of cause and effect and the Athenians studied this intensely, and later the Roman's picked this up.  

Rule by law, is suppose to mean God's law, not man's law.  God did not give man laws, despite what the Jews, Christians and Muslims say about this.  God did not walk around Eden with Adam and Eve and later come to Moses in a burning bush.  No angels came with special messages from God.  This is all mythology.  The mythology has some very positive effects on people, and some negative effects, but it does not give us God's laws, and in a democracy rule by law must mean rule by God's laws.   Here is where you need Athena.  Not me, but the goddess of my name sake.  She taught men how to govern themselves.  This is a different mythology.  

We can know we are made in the image of the Gods, because we can think and we can reason.  This is how we come to know morals.  Moral is to know good manners and the law.  The law being God's law.  How do we know God's law?  Reading holy books gives us much knowledge of the subject, but these books are human reasoning not the word of God.  To know God's laws we must develop our own thinking and reasoning.   Because religion prevents the masses from doing this, it is the problem.   Democracy ideally teaches people how to think.  Religion teaches them what to think, and represses the how to think part.   Education for technology, leaves moral training to the church, and because this depends on superstition, this is a disaster.  

Galleon, your  contribution is important to the point.  If I understand you correctly, it is the difference between the written word and the inner word?   Education for technology prepares to rely on the authority of others, rather doing every experiment for ourselves, we agree to accept the research of others, if it meets the standards for good research.  This makes it possible to advance technology rapidly.  Religion too asks us to rely on the authority of a holy book.  For many years this might religion that controlled people with a fear of God and dependency on His blessings.   But to learn scientific fasts through a book, is not the same as discovering them ourselves.  Religion given to us from a book, is not the same as an inner awakening of spiritual truth.   Shalom


Edited by Athena - 24-Apr-2011 at 13:50
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  Quote ralfy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2011 at 05:36
From what I know, much of the conflict of the twentieth century revolved around secular and not religious issues, particularly nationalism and ethnic strife. One of the reasons for engaging in conflict is the need to "defend democracy," which in various cases often involved realpolitik, e.g., plans to control natural resources in a particular country.

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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2011 at 06:28
Originally posted by ralfy

From what I know, much of the conflict of the twentieth century revolved around secular and not religious issues, particularly nationalism and ethnic strife. One of the reasons for engaging in conflict is the need to "defend democracy," which in various cases often involved realpolitik, e.g., plans to control natural resources in a particular country.

 
That has been an issue for thousands of years... intercoupled with conquest and utilization-demand of assets and resources...just to name a few. Which can clearly and finally delineate that religon in and of itself is not the problem as this thread has attempted to identify. But a factor conjoined with varying other aspects of social-cultural developement within an ethnic group or geo-physical region.
 
I can rest easy now.
 
Yes...to quote Bill Shakespeare.... you remind me of this....
 
SHYLOCK:
A Daniel come to judgment! yea, a Daniel!
O wise young judge, how I do honour thee!
 
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Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 26-Apr-2011 at 06:32
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2011 at 08:53
Originally posted by ralfy

From what I know, much of the conflict of the twentieth century revolved around secular and not religious issues, particularly nationalism and ethnic strife. One of the reasons for engaging in conflict is the need to "defend democracy," which in various cases often involved realpolitik, e.g., plans to control natural resources in a particular country.
Or the attempted exportation of a communism, a humanistic ideology. Ironicaly, even the implementation of the this humanistic ideology (presented as an alternative to religion) led to the avoidable deaths of millions of people in the USSR, China and Cambodia.
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2011 at 09:51
I sure wish you would name those issues.  What country has worried us that did not practice democracy?  Germany was a Christian Republic.   China is so into democracy, all decisions are made in groups.  The USSR also practiced democracy.   I wish the pressed had not misrepresented communism.  Communism uses a form of democracy, so the issue with communist is not democracy, but private property verses public property.  

Now for defending resources.  I believe it makes a difference if people realize oil is finite and needs to be shared with the world, or if they are really unaware of that, and believe they enjoy the good life because they are Christians and God blesses them.   President Reagan lied to the everyone when he said it was not necessary to conserve oil.  He replaced Carter who told the truth and had began a strong program for converting to alternative energy.  Reagan undid what Carter started and remove solar cells from the roof of the White House, and made the recession worse for economic victims by denying their reality and blaming the poor for the economic problems caused by the oil embargo.   Then he turned all our resources to securing oil in the mid east.  Bush was following through with this, and the Christian right elected Bush and reelected him, and supported the invasion of Iraq based religious reasons!  All they knew of the war is a Muslim was behind 9/11 and we were attacking Muslims.   Being ignorant of oil and why this Muslim attacked, they believed more lies.   Billy Graham did a very moving Christmas show about how God wants young men to serve in Iraq.  War is good for religion and religion is good for war. 

Then their there is the Christian Zionism that supports Israel.  The Israelis are doing to Palestinians what the good Christian country of the US did to native Americans.  Yes this is a competition for resources, but it is done with religious zeal, and in the case of Israel is supported by US citizens for religious reasons.   
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