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Development of French language

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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Development of French language
    Posted: 09-Mar-2011 at 10:31
http://www.realfrench.net/pdf/origins.pdf
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  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2011 at 12:59
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Diviacus, do you know someone who knows both Old French and Alanic language and has really researched about the possible connection between these two languages? I believe they should certainly consider Alanic language to find the origin of some French words.
 
No, I definitely don't (personally) know people knowing both old French and Alanic language; that's why I strongly doubt about your sentence "Those who research about the French language certainly know that there are some influences from Alanic language and they consider this language to find the origin of French words".
 
I have read a certain number of books about French and IE languages. I have never noticed one mention of Alanic language as a possible origin of some French words. 
In fact, I don't know why you want to demonstrate the common words between French and "Persian / Sanskrit / Iranian" are due to Alans (which, historically is very unlikely). Why not Sarmatians ? Why not, as almost everybody thinks, due to the common IE origin ?
 
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You probably know about the Avestan word pairidaeza which can be found in different European and Semitic language as "Paradise" (Such as Old French paradis and Arabic fardaus) and about very Iranian mythical creature in the paradise: Avestan pairikā (Persian peri) and Alanic fairia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peri

Alanic fairia is exactly the same as fairy: a small imaginary winged being of human form. According to etymonline website: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=fairy the English word fairy comes from Old French faerie but it says the Old French word relates to Latin fata which means "fate"!!! I think they could also find a Latin origin for "Paradise", like palaestra "wrestling school", anyway they are similar words!! Wink

Yes, all the explanations (on French sites) about the origin of French fée coming from old French faerie say that it comes from latin fata.
And all the explanations of French paradis come from Avestan pairidaeza (and not palaestra or similar words) !
 
Just to conclude : when you give me an argument, I answer. And then, you answer with another "proof", not discussing my answer. I am not ready to examine all the french words origins.Confused
 
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2011 at 15:22

Originally posted by Diviacus

No, I definitely don't (personally) know people knowing both old French and Alanic language; that's why I strongly doubt about your sentence "Those who research about the French language certainly know that there are some influences from Alanic language and they consider this language to find the origin of French words".

As I said before, the Alanic migration to France is a historical fact, they established the kingdom of Alans in France and we know some of their kings, such as Goar, Sangiban, Respendial, ... it is not possible to believe there is absolutely no trace of them in the culture of people who live in the same region.
 
There are also some nationalists in Iran who also try to deny the influence of Greek language in the development of Middle Persian language, the historical fact is that Macedonians and Greeks conquered Iran in the fourth century BC and ruled there for at least 60 years, those who really research about the Middle Persian language certainly know that there are some influences from Greek language and they consider this language to find the origin of Middle Persian words. The same thing can be said about the linguistic influence of other people in other lands.
 
Originally posted by Diviacus

I have read a certain number of books about French and IE languages. I have never noticed one mention of Alanic language as a possible origin of some French words.
 
May I know why? Isn't it just because the lack of knowledge of authors of those books about the Alanic language?
 
Originally posted by Diviacus

In fact, I don't know why you want to demonstrate the common words between French and "Persian / Sanskrit / Iranian" are due to Alans (which, historically is very unlikely). Why not Sarmatians ? Why not, as almost everybody thinks, due to the common IE origin ?
 
historically is very unlikely?!! Persian, Sanskrit and languages of other Asian languages can't be related to the languages of western Europe, other than that common Indo-European origin, I'm not really talking about some loanwords which can be found in every languages around the world but the influence of a language in the development of another language.
 
For example if we want to compare French to Urdu (official languages of Pakistan), we know about Romance and Indian origin of them but the developments of these languages were also influenced by some other languages, for this purpose we should know about the people who lived in the regions where these languages were developed, you can't deny the influence of Celtic and Frankish languages in the first one or Persian and Arabic languages in the second one, but there were certainly also some influnces from Alanic and Chagatai in those languages.
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  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2011 at 16:37
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

As I said before, the Alanic migration to France is a historical fact, they established the kingdom of Alans in France and we know some of their kings, such as Goar, Sangiban, Respendial, ... it is not possible to believe there is absolutely no trace of them in the culture of people who live in the same region.
I also said the Alanic migration to France was a historical fast. We don't discuss about that.
I translate hereafter a sentence from Iaroslav Lebedynsky (Les Alains - 2005 - 280 pages) :
" The only political structures created by Alans (In Europe) had a very short life : the kingdom created by Respendial, then Addac, in Spain from 411 to 418, and the kingdom of Gallia ulterior, north of the Loire river, around 442-453 (Goar and Sangiban)..."
This doesn't have to be compared to Greek or Macedonians that ruled Iran for 60 years !
 
And another sentence :
"In opposition to german people, the Alans didn't left any trace in the gallo-roman language. The French words that some people wanted to be due to them ("sur" or "cotte") are words borrowed to germanic languages, at a non defined period, to Iranian languages ( more likely Sarmatian), then passed through vulgar Latin to Roman" (ancestor of French language).
   
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

May I know why? Isn't it just because the lack of knowledge of authors of those books about the Alanic language?
Perhaps, ... or perhaps because of what is said above.
 
We also can compare Alans to Wisigoths, that ruled a great part of France for more than 300 years.
Despite this long period when Wisigoths ruled this part of the country, few French words are proved to come from that.
And Wisigoths have been staying at least 20 times longer, on a territory at least 50 times wider !
That's my explanation why no French historian consider Alans as roots of some French words.
 
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2011 at 03:32

Originally posted by Diviacus

I also said the Alanic migration to France was a historical fast. We don't discuss about that.

I translate hereafter a sentence from Iaroslav Lebedynsky (Les Alains - 2005 - 280 pages) :
" The only political structures created by Alans (In Europe) had a very short life : the kingdom created by Respendial, then Addac, in Spain from 411 to 418, and the kingdom of Gallia ulterior, north of the Loire river, around 442-453 (Goar and Sangiban)..."
This doesn't have to be compared to Greek or Macedonians that ruled Iran for 60 years !
 
That Alanic kingdom could be just the beginning of a political and cultural influence of Alans in France, we should know what happened afterwards, you can read part of the book "From Scythia to Camelot" by C. Scott Littleton and Linda A. Malcor here: http://ossetians.com/eng/news.php?newsid=370
 
"In the seventeenth century the Rohan family of the village of Josselin claimed that their lineage was more ancient than that of the kings of France, tracing their roots to the legendary Conan Meriadoc, who appears in the writings of Geoffrey of Monmouth. According to Bachrach this illustrious ancestor reputedly cut out the tongues of the Alanic women and children (the men were executed) whom he captured "so that the strange barbarian speech from the steppes would not corrupt the purity of the conquerors' language." Some scholars, however, argue that Meriadoc's barbaric treatment of the Alans is an onomastic legend rather than historical fact. Historical evidence indicates that a number of Alans survived this violent conflict with the Celts, with the Celts slotting into the existing social system in Brittany below the level of the nobility. Since at least some of these Alans appear to be ruling in the vicinity of Vannes throughout much of the Middle Ages, Meriadoc's people probably intermarried eventually with these powerful local Alans, if for no other reason than political expediency. Given the number of Alains in the Rohan line alone, this family at the very least seems to have adopted this practice."
 
About the cultural influence of Alans, for example it says "Markale argues that the religion of fifth-century Gaul was a synthesis of "oriental" cults, druidism, and Roman traditions. One of these "oriental" religions was that of the non-Christian Alans. ... Given the number of Alans who were in the church of Gaul by this time, there may well have been Alans among these monks. Alan mercenaries may have accompanied these monks as well. Perhaps this missionary activity was responsible for the legends of Joseph of Arimathea's arrival in Europe via Marseilles, of his missionary work in Britain, and of his carrying the Grail to that country, in the company of a bodyguard of soldiers from the East. "
 
Originally posted by Diviacus

And another sentence :
"In opposition to german people, the Alans didn't left any trace in the gallo-roman language. The French words that some people wanted to be due to them ("sur" or "cotte") are words borrowed to germanic languages, at a non defined period, to Iranian languages ( more likely Sarmatian), then passed through vulgar Latin to Roman" (ancestor of French language).
 
Some loanwords can't prove anything, there can be hundreds of them in a language but it can't show the linguistic influence of a language in the development of another language, but there are many other things which can prove this influence, one thing that I mentioned in my first post in this thread is the frequency of the voiced palato-alveolar fricative (zh sound) in the French and Alanic languages, bonjour!
 
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2011 at 09:47
Originally posted by opuslola


I would ask Cryptic, just which French language are you discussing?, or mentioning?
A good guestion.  Though the book just said "French", the author was probably refering to most, or all of the latin based, French languages in the region which later became France.  My guess is that Rome lost political control over Gaul earleir than they did Spainish and of course, Italian areas.  This then led to an ealier break with latin.
 
 
 
Originally posted by Diviacus

Originally posted by Cryptic

Which of the river names are pre Indo European? Are they in the southwest?
According to French toponymists, the following roots (among others) are pre-indo-european :
- ar (ahuar, ahar)
- dur, dor
- el (il)
- sam, som
From the root "ar-" we can find many european rivers (Aar, ...)
The roots "dur, dor" are mostly found in the south of France (Dordogne, Durance, ...)
The roots "el, i"l or "sam, som" are mostly found in the north of France (Somme, Sambre,...°
Thanks for the interesting information. 
 
Originally posted by Diviacus

I don't have statistics to know if there are more pre-indo-european hydronyms south of France, even if it would be easier to explain (due to the presence of Basque and Iberian, non indo-european languages spoken a long time in south of France). 
Do you know the name of the other non Indo European language in southeren France that was able to survive into the early Middle Ages?     
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 12-Mar-2011 at 10:02
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2011 at 17:33
Seeing all of the relationships between Parisian French and Persian, can anyone not conceed that sometimes these words (Parisian and Persian) were somewhat confused by historians?

After all, the Parisian French considered themselves as "From the Isles", etc.!, and the "peoples of the isles" attacked Egypt and N. Africa numerous times, as did France (Paris?)!

Just a note!

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Ron
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  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2011 at 14:26
Originally posted by Cryptic

Do you know the name of the other non Indo European language in southeren France that was able to survive into the early Middle Ages?    
 
The only two names of non Indo European languages spoken on the actual French territory are the Basque (or Vascon) and the Iberian. Obviously, that doesn't mean there have not been others, and there have been others, but we don't know their names. And these two languages have been spoken in the south west part of France.
After the Roman conquest, Latin has been the "official" language, and little by litthe the Celtic and the Iberian languages have disappeared. The Celtic language has been spoken, in remote parts of France, until the VIth or VIIth century. We can assume that the Iberian disppeared befor, as it was spoken (in France) only by a few people.
Only the Basque survived, and untill now.
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  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2011 at 14:48
Originally posted by Cryptic

My guess is that Rome lost political control over Gaul earleir than they did Spainish and of course, Italian areas.  This then led to an ealier break with latin.
1- Rome lost political control of Gaul, Spain and Italy about at the same time, against German peoples.
In Gaul, we have the great invasion of 406, and then the Frank invasion, end of the Vth century.
In Spain, the Wisigoths invaded the countyry in the Vth century.
In Italy, The Ostrogoths invaded the country end of the Vth century.
 
2- We have to reminder that the spoken Latin was different from the written one.
As the written Latin remained quite unchanged and became a dead language, but commonly used for centuries in all the territory corresponding to the Roman Empire, the Vulgar Latin (the spoken language) began to diverge from the classic one very soon, and in every country about at the same time.
That's in Spain that the Vulgar Latin is most likely to have diverged the sooner, because the country was at the end of the Empire. And then the Wisigoths and the Arabs altered the language.
And also, the first written texts in Roman languages have been written at about the same time, in the IXth century, in Italy and in France.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2011 at 11:08
Originally posted by Diviacus

The only two names of non Indo European languages spoken on the actual French territory are the Basque (or Vascon) and the Iberian. Obviously, that doesn't mean there have not been others, and there have been others, but we don't know their names.
 
 There was a third as well. Here is the information about the one that I was looking for earlier.
 
Originally posted by Diviacus

the Vulgar Latin (the spoken language) began to diverge from the classic one very soon, and in every country about at the same time.
In the end, is French more diverged from Latin than Spanish and Italian?  Also, are Spanish and Italian closer together than they are to French?  The Sardinian language / dialects are said to be closest to Latin.
 
If French is more diverged from Latin and less closely related to Italian and Spanish, there could be other explanations besides losing political control. Perhaps the density of latin speakers was higher in Spain and Italy.  So when political control was lost, latin still had a large number of daily users in Italy and Spain?  


Edited by Cryptic - 14-Mar-2011 at 11:20
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  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2011 at 12:02
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by Diviacus

The only two names of non Indo European languages spoken on the actual French territory are the Basque (or Vascon) and the Iberian. Obviously, that doesn't mean there have not been others, and there have been others, but we don't know their names.
 
 There was a third as well. Here is the information about the one that I was looking for earlier.
 
OK, for me, the Aquitanian language (we should say the Aquitanian languages) is from the same family as Basque (or Vascon), and as it is said in your Wikipedia sum-up, where it is described as a precursor of the (nowadays) Basque language.
It cannot be counted as a third one.
 
About your other comment, I have to think ...Embarrassed
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2011 at 14:24
In many ways the "langue d'Lac" or "dulac?", or "d'luc" (d'Oc), etc. (you can supply your most correct form in your reply) was as dissimilar to a Parisian as the Italian language of both Northern and Southern Italy was to a native of Rome in the late 19th century CE!, and even later.

These regional accents were even harder for most Italians to understand than was the difference between Southern English and Northern English in America, about 100 years ago.

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2013 at 17:46
I will try to revive this line of postings. This very fact was not, very well developed during the life time of this line.

In fact there were at least two lines of French existing side by side in France for hundreds of years. And why no one responded to my last post, as seen above, a couple of years ago is a wonder.

So do any of you guys/gals want to again "go into the fray?"

Regards, Ron
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