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Development of French language

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  Quote Lady Deborah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Development of French language
    Posted: 25-Feb-2011 at 17:10
Hello all. New to this forum--looks wonderful!
Any experts out there in the development of French language? Specifically how Latin and Celtic and Germanic (?) all blended together and became Old French by about 1200 CE?
many thanks.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2011 at 20:15
I am sorry My Lady, to inform you that all it seems I do, is to compare French, German, Flemish, etc., to English words! And, according to some retorts I have received, I do a bad job of it!

For example, I look at old maps, etc., and see words describing the same place spelled in many differing forms! But, it seems that modern historians mostly disreard these spelling when writing their reports, or conclusions, etc.!

Thus the problem with the French/Dutch/Flemish/ Friesian spellings of the famous city called mostly today as "Lille!"

Just how many variations of this city can you present?

Yes! This is a test of your abilities!

Regards,

Ron Huges
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2011 at 11:20
In far fewer words, he doesn't have a clue.Big smile
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2011 at 15:14
I think there was also an almost strong influence of Alanic language in the development of French language, I don't talk about the relation between Merovingians and the Sicambri: http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/sicambri/ but Alans migration to Gaul in the fifth century and formation of a kingdom in the central France, as you know the city of Orleans, southwest of Paris, was the capital of this kingdom and one of the greatest kings was Sangiban who fought against Attila.
One interesting thing for me in the French is "zh" sound, I had posted an Alanic (Ossetian) song in this thread: Speak Iranian (Zhurut Ironau), I don't know the link still works or not but it really sounds similar to French too.
 
 
 
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  Quote Lady Deborah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2011 at 10:55
Thank you for your replies. I didn't know about the Alanic (?) migration and will check into that.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2011 at 12:57
Originally posted by Lady Deborah

Hello all. New to this forum--looks wonderful!
Any experts out there in the development of French language? Specifically how Latin and Celtic and Germanic (?) all blended together and became Old French by about 1200 CE?
many thanks.
As a vague side note, French diverged from Latin several centuries before Spanish and Italian did.  This may have influenced borrowings from other languages.
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  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2011 at 16:12
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I think there was also an almost strong influence of Alanic language in the development of French language, I don't talk about the relation between Merovingians and the Sicambri: http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/sicambri/ but Alans migration to Gaul in the fifth century and formation of a kingdom in the central France, as you know the city of Orleans, southwest of Paris, was the capital of this kingdom and one of the greatest kings was Sangiban who fought against Attila.
One interesting thing for me in the French is "zh" sound, I had posted an Alanic (Ossetian) song in this thread: Speak Iranian (Zhurut Ironau), I don't know the link still works or not but it really sounds similar to French too. 
Sorry to disappoint you !
As far as I know (I am French), there are no Alanic influences in the development of French language.
French is coming from Latin. There are still some Celtic words (about 200, which is few), and a certain number of Germanic words, coming from the Merovingians.
There were some Alans around Orleans (but not a kingdom !). They left some place names (as Allainville, Allainvilliers, south of Paris), but I don't know one word coming from Alanic language.
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2011 at 16:19
we are following your story!Just go on,with days and actors we have to blame for this?Was Caxton in French language as in English?Were those,virtual ones! 
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2011 at 08:11
Originally posted by Diviacus

Sorry to disappoint you !
As far as I know (I am French), there are no Alanic influences in the development of French language.
French is coming from Latin. There are still some Celtic words (about 200, which is few), and a certain number of Germanic words, coming from the Merovingians.
There were some Alans around Orleans (but not a kingdom !). They left some place names (as Allainville, Allainvilliers, south of Paris), but I don't know one word coming from Alanic language.
 
Ok, I know neither French nor Alanic language but I know Persian and a little English, the clear fact is that Alanic was an Iranian language, so there are certainly a large number of similar words in Persian and Alanic languages, there is a big distance between Persia and France and as far as I know there was no cultural relation between the people of these two countries, but if you look at an English dictioanry then you will see that most of Persian-origin words in English, come through Old French, such as:
 
azure
from Old French azur from Persian lazhward (as though the -l- were the French article l')
 
bedeguar
from Old French bédégar from Persian badgwar
 
bezique
from Old French bésigue from Persian bazigar
 
bezoar
from Old French bezoard from Persian padzahr
 
bronze
from Old French bronze from Persian brinj
 
calabash
from Old French calebasse from Persian xarbuza
 
caravan
from Old French carouan from Persian karovan
 
check
from Old French eschec from Persian schah
 
checkmate
from Old French eschec mat from Persian schah mat
 
hazard
from Old French hasard from Persian azar
 
julep
from Old French julep from Persian gulab
 
kaftan
from Old French cafetan from Persian kaftan
 
orange
from Old French orenge from Persian narang
 
lilac
from Old French lilac from Persian lilak
 
spinach
from Old French espinache from Persian aspanach
 
tabor
from Old French tabour from Persian tabura
 
taffeta
from Old French taffetas from Persian taftan
 
tass
from Old French tasse from Persian tasht
 
tulip
from Old French tulipe from Persian dulband
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  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2011 at 09:35
Certainly, there is a certain number of Iranian (or Persian) words in French. But that does not mean they came through Alans.
 
By instance :
- Tulip : the flower has been introduced in Europe at the end of the XVIth century, and the word "Tulipa"in latin has been created at that time (from persian word)
- Check : the game has been introduced in France during the Middle Age, coming from Persia, throug Arabic countries and Spain
- Hasard : comes from arabic words al-zahr (dices game) and is known in French only since the XIIth century.
- Bronze : the French word comes from the Italian one (bronzo) and has been attested only from the XIIIth century
 
Almost all the words you mentioned are words used in many languages, so Alans are not responsible of that.
 
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2011 at 14:25
I don't know why we should deny the Alanic influence, you yourself mentioned some place names with Alanic origin in the northern France, the Alanic migration from the south of Russia to the north of France is an undeniable historical fact, for example we know the largest and most important river in the land of Alans is Don River: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_River_(Russia) and we see in remembrance of their original land, they named one of the most important rivers in their new land "Don River": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_(Vilaine)
 


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 07-Mar-2011 at 14:28
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  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2011 at 16:37
I know that the Alanic migration is an historical fact. I don't want to deny it.
We know they arrived in the Gaul at the beginning of the 5th century.
Historians assume they were several thousands of warriors so let's say between 15 000 and 40 000 people.
 
The discussion is the Alanic influence on the French language.
 
Why did they not influence the French language ?: because they were very few, compared to the several millions of Gaulish people (speaking or Celtic or Latin languages).
 
Why did they give their names to villages ?: because, when they establish in a place, this place was named by the other inhabitants "town of the Alans", which gave a dozen of villages nowadays called "Allainville", "Allainvilliers" or "Alaincourt" (with one or two "l").
 
Why is it very unlikely they gave the name of "Don" to a nowadays French river ?: because we know that rivers names are naturally much older than village names. The river Don existed before they arrived. In France, most of rivers names are pre-Celtic, even pre-indo-european, and only few are Celtic, even if the Celtic language has been used for more than 1000 years, much before the Alans came.
 
Moreover, the "Don" name comes from indo-european danu (Don, Donets, Danube, ...) meaning "river", and there is no need of Alans to have such a name in France.
And by the way, around the French "Don" river, there is no toponym which can be attributed to Alans.
 
But be sure I have nothing against the Alans Embarrassed
 
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2011 at 22:39
Originally posted by Diviacus

. In France, most of rivers names are pre-Celtic, even pre-indo-european, and only few are Celtic, even if the Celtic language has been used for more than 1000 years, much before the Alans came. 
Which of the river names are pre Indo European? Are they in the southwest?
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2011 at 22:56
May I intrude and ask, if you would condsider that the word "Alan" could not be related to "Cat-alan?", since both were reknowned "merc's"?

That is, out for hire!

Regards,

Ron
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2011 at 09:10

Diviacus, the population of the Republic of South Ossetia, a self-proclaimed independent country, is about 55,000. If just this number of Ossetians migrated to another land 1600 years ago then many things could be changed there.

Those who research about the French language certainly know that there are some influences from Alanic language and they consider this language to find the origin of French words, for example, as I found, Old French pautre (Modern French pote) and Breton paotr come from Ossetian (Alanic) pautra, the Avestan word is puthra and Modern Persian pusar (boy).
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2011 at 12:35
Official Franks were:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks
 
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  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2011 at 15:44
Originally posted by Cryptic

Which of the river names are pre Indo European? Are they in the southwest?
According to French toponymists, the following roots (among others) are pre-indo-european :
- ar (ahuar, ahar)
- dur, dor
- el (il)
- sam, som
From the root "ar-" we can find many european rivers (Aar, ...)
The roots "dur, dor" are mostly found in the south of France (Dordogne, Durance, ...)
The roots "el, i"l or "sam, som" are mostly found in the north of France (Somme, Sambre,...°
 
I don't have statistics to know if there are more pre-indo-european hydronyms south of France, even if it would be easier to explain (due to the presence of Basque and Iberian, non indo-european languages spoken a long time in south of France).
 
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  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2011 at 15:53
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Diviacus, the population of the Republic of South Ossetia, a self-proclaimed independent country, is about 55,000. If just this number of Ossetians migrated to another land 1600 years ago then many things could be changed there.

Those who research about the French language certainly know that there are some influences from Alanic language and they consider this language to find the origin of French words, for example, as I found, Old French pautre (Modern French pote) and Breton paotr come from Ossetian (Alanic) pautra, the Avestan word is puthra and Modern Persian pusar (boy).
First, I don't understand your note about Ossetians
 
Secondly, I would be interested to know names of people working on French language who certainly know that there are some influences from Alanic language. I don't know them...
I found your hypothesis of "pote" coming from "paotr" coming from "pruta" ( meaning son in sanskrit) in the French wiktionnaire.
But there is another hypothesis of "pote" coming from French word "poteau".
And I asked specialists of breton language that confim more likely the second hypothesis (poteau), and who agree with me that the Breton word "paotr" may have a common indo-european root as "pruta", but who totally disagree with the hypothesis that Breton "paotr" may come from the sanskrit word (even less the Ossetian one).
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2011 at 18:11
A while ago, Cryptic wrote;

"As a vague side note, French diverged from Latin several centuries before Spanish and Italian did. This may have influenced borrowings from other languages."

I would ask Cryptic, just which French language are you discussing?, or mentioning?

Basically, France (as we see it today) was divided by both language, and religion for hundreds of years, and still fights the language part untill today! Until certain positions and impostions had been forced upon the people, the unification of Parisian French, (Much like Castillian Spanish, and Roman Italian, etc.) was fought far and wide until a unification, and enforcement, from a central authority was forced upon the populace. I think it only recently occured during the times of the Emperor(s) Napolean!

Regards,

Ron
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2011 at 08:58

Diviacus, do you know someone who knows both Old French and Alanic language and has really researched about the possible connection between these two languages? I believe they should certainly consider Alanic language to find the origin of some French words.

We know about some sound changes in the Iranian languages, for example about the English word five from proto-IE *penkwe, there are Avestan panca (Persian penj) and Alanic fondz.

You probably know about the Avestan word pairidaeza which can be found in different European and Semitic language as "Paradise" (Such as Old French paradis and Arabic fardaus) and about very Iranian mythical creature in the paradise: Avestan pairikā (Persian peri) and Alanic fairia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peri

Alanic fairia is exactly the same as fairy: a small imaginary winged being of human form. According to etymonline website: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=fairy the English word fairy comes from Old French faerie but it says the Old French word relates to Latin fata which means "fate"!!! I think they could also find a Latin origin for "Paradise", like palaestra "wrestling school", anyway they are similar words!! Wink

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