Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedAncient Jews were Kurds

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456>
Author
Putty19 View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 21-May-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 111
Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ancient Jews were Kurds
    Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 04:34
Originally posted by Baal Melqart


@Putty, it interests me how you seem to understand the history of these genes so well. Any link you might have that goes through the basics?


There are plenty of links and sources in terms of genetic studies, but it's better to understand the basics first before looking at them, population genetic studies are divided into two types, recent ancestry (The past 2000 years or so) and deep ancestry (This goes back to our human origins in Africa beyond 50,000 years ago).

Before looking at what genetic studies have to say, as humans we carry 46 chromosomes, these 46 chromosomes are in 23 pairs (23 + 23 = 46), 22 of the 23 pairs are part of the non-sex chromosomes, these are called the Autosomal DNA which determines everything about us from looks, to shapes, to diseases, to whatever we inherit from our ancestors from all sides, and when I say from all sides I mean from both of your parents who also inherited from their parents (Your Grandparents) who inherited from their parents (Great Grandparents), so on, so you basically carry about 50/50 from your parents, and this 50/50 may be 25/25/25/25 when you look back to your grandparents (These numbers could be different, I'm just giving a general example), these percentages eventually get smaller as you keep going down to the deeper ancestors, of course by the time you go back beyond a 1000 years it would be too diluted to track further, in other words Autosomal DNA is most useful for the last 10 generations and this is the best test to determine recent ancestry and population comparison, so based on Autosomal DNA, they're able to tell the difference between a Saudi Arab and an Indian for example, it's also worthy to mention that the Autosomal DNA is about 96% of our DNA.

The 23rd pair of chromosomes are the sex chromosomes, this is what differentiates between males and females, the females carry XX while the males carry XY, for the males the Y-Chromosome is very important in terms of deep ancestry which takes us back all the way to Africa over 50,000 years ago, it's like a last name that's passed down from fathers to sons so the Y-DNA is only exclusive to males (Females cannot test for it since they don't carry it), this is called the paternal line, as for the maternal line, that can be traced through the mtDNA (Mitochondrial DNA), Mitochondria are cell inclusions of which there are about 1000 per cell, they are mini power packs with their own DNA separate from the nuclear (autosomes and sex chromosomes) DNA, this is passed down from mothers to daughters, the sons can also receive it from their mother and carry it but they cannot pass it down, so this is what we call the maternal line that can trace us back to our maternal ancestor in Africa over 150,000 years ago.

Now that we have all the basic information, we know that Autosomal DNA tests all your sides and determines what population you relate to today, but the down side is it cannot go back very far in human history, while the Paternal/Maternal lines (Y-DNA/mtDNA) take us back over 50,000 years ago and all the way back to our roots in Africa which helps with the migration path, but the downside is you're only tracking one line (Two lines actually since one is paternal and the other is maternal).

The Dodecad site uses Autosomal DNA in the analysis, so as you can see you have percentages of what these populations carry, the person who runs this site also accepts samples from people who have done their DNA tests, I submitted my sample to him for example so I'm in the study, if you look at this spreadsheet, my ID is DOD037:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadG0zRlpFTjVnemJjU0d2MUtJSkMzNGc&hl=en&authkey=CP-9p_wC#gid=0

So as you can see he built a very big nice database of all these people that have submitted their data and all these results correspond very well to their backgrounds assuming they're not of mixed ancestry.

As for the deep ancestry, there are things called haplogroups, these are basically mutations that happen as time passes, the earliest ancestor is considered the Y-Chromosonal Adam (Not the religious Adam), he's estimated to have lived around 80,000 years ago in East Africa and everyone on Earth today comes from his line, to make things more clear he was not the only man during his time, but for whatever reason his line is the only one that survived, so no matter what we look like or whatever shape or form we come in, we're all one huge family that come from this man, as his descendants kept on growing they kept passing his Y-DNA lineage down, in very super rare occasions there are mutations that happen to the Y-DNA, and once mutation happens, all the descendants of this person carry the same exact mutation, so for example let's assume we have the following:

Father (A)
Son 1 (A), Son 2 (A), Son 3 (A1)

Son 3 developed a mutation as you can see, like his other brothers, he also inherited the (A) from the father, but he also mutated to (A1), therefore all his children will be (A1) like him, but the children of his siblings will be (A) only, do you see what I mean? In other words our Y-DNA has mutated many times and the mutation helps us identify the migration path our paternal line took, the maternal line (mtDNA) is the exact same thing but through the mother of course, read the following links to understand more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

So if we want to be relevant to the topic, the Gulf and Bedouin Arabs mostly carry haplogroup J1c3d, if we trace this back to Africa, this is how many mutations happened:

J1c3d (In Levant or Anatolia 5000 years ago)
J1c3 (In Eastern Anatolia 5000 to 10,000 years ago)
J1c (In Eastern Anatolia 10,000 years ago)
J1 (In Eastern Anatolia 10,000 to 20,000 years ago)
J (In Near East 20,000 to 30,000 years ago)
IJ (In Near East 30,000 to 40,000 years ago)
IJK (In Near East 40,000 to 50,000 years ago)
F (In Near East 50,000 to 60,000 years ago)
CF (In Near East 60,000 to 70,000 years ago)
CT (In Eastern Africa 70,000 to 80,000 years ago)
BT (In Eastern Africa 80,000 years ago)
Adam (In Africa 80,000+ years ago)

The years are just example estimates on educational timelines, so based on that we estimate that the Arab men in Arabia mostly come from a group that lived in the Levant area around 5000 years ago, this specific lineage is also very common in Jews, that means that the Jews and Arabs that carry this lineage (J1c3d) share an ancestor (The man that developed this mutation in the Levant area 5000 years ago).

I know this might be a bit complicated now, but as you keep reading more on this stuff you'll get the hang of it, it's not rocket science that's for sure, and I hope MediaWarLord learns a thing or two here LOL


Edited by Putty19 - 05-Apr-2011 at 04:44
Back to Top
Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar

Joined: 18-Aug-2006
Location: The Llano
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7392
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 04:58
Very good explanation for a layman's use and as you say potential further research; and I am that in matters of DNA....a layman.
 
Thanks
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

Back to Top
medenaywe View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Master of Meanings

Joined: 06-Nov-2010
Location: /
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17084
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 05:10
welcome to the club of laymen!Yes post above is Sesame street story for most of us!
Back to Top
Rûm View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 04-Apr-2011
Location: Kostantiniyye
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 07:05
Originally posted by Baal Melqart

Kurds are an Iranic people, they are not a mix of Arabs, Armenians and Persians. Kurds are a distinct group of people that have existed at least since late antiquity if not before. Strabo mentions them and refers to them as Karduchians living in Pinaka, modern Finiki. Reference: http://www.jstor.org/pss/25209787
definitely no! they are mix of arabs, iranians and armenians. yes they speak iranian language but this doesnt mean they are iranian! you accept or dont, I dont care. they are not ancient people but mix of some ancient people.

and again, there is no kurdistan but Turkey Iran and Iraq. if you want to see a place as your homeland go back to zagros caves
Back to Top
Arab View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 09-Jul-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 197
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 07:17

And what is your evidence of this, Rûm?

Back to Top
Ince View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 24-Dec-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 550
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 07:47
Originally posted by Rûm

Originally posted by Baal Melqart

Kurds are an Iranic people, they are not a mix of Arabs, Armenians and Persians. Kurds are a distinct group of people that have existed at least since late antiquity if not before. Strabo mentions them and refers to them as Karduchians living in Pinaka, modern Finiki. Reference: http://www.jstor.org/pss/25209787
definitely no! they are mix of arabs, iranians and armenians. yes they speak iranian language but this doesnt mean they are iranian! you accept or dont, I dont care. they are not ancient people but mix of some ancient people.

and again, there is no kurdistan but Turkey Iran and Iraq. if you want to see a place as your homeland go back to zagros caves


Oh! pleaes, you are a typical Turk witht he same views as a racist Turk.  Turks have a dislike for Arabs and Armenians with also a hatred for Kurds.  So you want to cluster Kurds with the people that you don't like.  Give me a break unless you can prove your ludacris claim with some acadamic back up then please keep your lip shut,  Kuni Kar.






Edited by Ince - 05-Apr-2011 at 08:01
Back to Top
Rûm View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 04-Apr-2011
Location: Kostantiniyye
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 10:12
Originally posted by Ince


Oh! pleaes, you are a typical Turk witht he same views as a racist Turk.
lol I'm Greek
Back to Top
MediaWarLord View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 28-Nov-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 10:15
Originally posted by Putty19

I know this might be a bit complicated now, but as you keep reading more on this stuff you'll get the hang of it, it's not rocket science that's for sure, and I hope MediaWarLord learns a thing or two here LOL
Nothing new for me. You didn’t show any evidence that disproved my claims. Next.

Edited by MediaWarLord - 05-Apr-2011 at 10:19
Back to Top
MediaWarLord View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 28-Nov-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 10:18
Originally posted by Rûm

Originally posted by Ince


Oh! pleaes, you are a typical Turk witht he same views as a racist Turk.
lol I'm Greek
Yet another lost Turk with an identity crisis.
 
I believe 99.99 % of all Turks is mentally ill. They don't know who they're!


Edited by MediaWarLord - 05-Apr-2011 at 10:21
Back to Top
Rûm View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 04-Apr-2011
Location: Kostantiniyye
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 10:28
Originally posted by MediaWarLord

Originally posted by Rûm

Originally posted by Ince


Oh! pleaes, you are a typical Turk witht he same views as a racist Turk.
lol I'm Greek
Yet another lost Turk with an identity crisis.
 
I believe 99.99 % of all Turks is mentally ill. They don't know who they're!
I'm %100 Pontic Greek from blacksea region of Turkey you f**king zagros cave bear

also yes, I'm Turkish nationalist! I was born in Turkey and Turkey is my own country.

so shut the f**k up!

götünüz yiyosa karadenize gelin amına koduklarım
Back to Top
MediaWarLord View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 28-Nov-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 10:36
Originally posted by Rûm

Originally posted by MediaWarLord

Originally posted by Rûm

Originally posted by Ince


Oh! pleaes, you are a typical Turk witht he same views as a racist Turk.
lol I'm Greek
Yet another lost Turk with an identity crisis.
 
I believe 99.99 % of all Turks is mentally ill. They don't know who they're!
I'm %100 Pontic Greek from blacksea region of Turkey you f**king zagros cave bear

also yes, I'm Turkish nationalist! I was born in Turkey and Turkey is my own country.

so shut the f**k up!

götünüz yiyosa karadenize gelin amına koduklarım
Like I said a mentally deranged person who tries to abreact his rage and weakness by bullying other people.
 
Grow up and some visits to the psychologist don't harm.
Back to Top
Rûm View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 04-Apr-2011
Location: Kostantiniyye
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 10:47
Originally posted by MediaWarLord

Like I said a mentally deranged person who tries to abreact his rage and weakness by bullying other people.
 
Grow up and some visits to the psychologist don't harm.
lol kürdo ne oldu LOL

your ancestors never had their own state and your cavemen people will never have their own state

kurdistan (photoshopistan LOL) is a dream... dream on little boy, when u grow up you will learn your lesson and forget your dream...
Back to Top
MediaWarLord View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 28-Nov-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 10:58
Originally posted by Rûm

Originally posted by MediaWarLord

Like I said a mentally deranged person who tries to abreact his rage and weakness by bullying other people.
 
Grow up and some visits to the psychologist don't harm.
lol kürdo ne oldu LOL

your ancestors never had their own state and your cavemen people will never have their own state

kurdistan (photoshopistan LOL) is a dream... dream on little boy, when u grow up you will learn your lesson and forget your dream...
When do you deranged Turks stop with throwing cliché after cliché. Man, that not original and funny anymore. It's like you all deranged Turkish zombies are fabricated on the same old dated and useless conveyor-belt, hahaha. You folks are so predictable. Turks are always saying the same thing, that’s a very good indication of the weakness and insanity.
 
Been there, done that. Next!


Edited by MediaWarLord - 05-Apr-2011 at 11:08
Back to Top
Azadi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
retired AE moderator

Joined: 17-Aug-2009
Location: Kurdistan, Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 362
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 11:00
Please guys, maintain your honor and keep it civilized and no bashing/flaming, we all are here to discuss history and not gossip about personal problems we might have :) Please.
Back to Top
MediaWarLord View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 28-Nov-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 12:45
I think I know what @Putty19 is doing. He desperately tries to cluster the Assyrian Hg J1 to Kurdistan too. Because ancient Assyrian roots have been exposed and those ancient Assyrians folks were not indigenous people of Kurdistan.
 
This topic is about the ancient Jews and the haplogroups Hg J2 and Hg G2 that some of them belong to. He’s trying to avoid a discussion about Hg J2 and Hg G2 origin of the Jews by spamming this subject with his Hg J1 nonsense.
Back to Top
Putty19 View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 21-May-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 111
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 16:08
Originally posted by MediaWarLord

I think I know what @Putty19 is doing. He desperately tries to cluster the Assyrian Hg J1 to Kurdistan too. Because ancient Assyrian roots have been exposed and those ancient Assyrians folks were not indigenous people of Kurdistan.
 
This topic is about the ancient Jews and the haplogroups Hg J2 and Hg G2 that some of them belong to. He’s trying to avoid a discussion about Hg J2 and Hg G2 origin of the Jews by spamming this subject with his Hg J1 nonsense.


I don't think you know your right leg from your left one, don't worry about what I'm trying to accomplish, if the the words are too much for you to understand then don't bother with the discussion, it's not me who claimed that haplogroup J1 is from Eastern Anatolia, it's scientists who are PHD level:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19826455

The Assyrians are not indigenous to Kurdistan, they are indigenous to North Mesopotamia, that's the Assyrian homeland.


Edited by Putty19 - 05-Apr-2011 at 16:10
Back to Top
Baal Melqart View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 28-Mar-2011
Location: UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 869
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 16:51
Well, technically speaking it's not so easy to differentiate between North Mesopotamia and Kurdistan especially since the region never was officially called Kurdistan.

Anyway, thanks for the genetic explanation. I'm a science student so I understand the make-up of genes. But I am still very interested in these 'historical markers' , what they mean and to whom they belonged and where.

@Rûm people like you disgust me. As if Turkey was one unified gene, you guys have such a huge mixture of genes I can practically call myself a Turk if I wanted to Smile Don't try and deny it, since ancient times there were so many migrations from Thracians and Celts into Phrygia and Galatia. Also, let us not forget the Mongol impact and the Greek colonies on the western bank of Turkey. I believe even the Rus and Varangians assimilated into some parts of Turkey. Why should the Kurds not have their land if they have existed as a distinct race since ancient times?! Turkey is so greedy it couldn't even spare them a small piece of land from its 783,562 km2.
Timidi mater non flet
Back to Top
Putty19 View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 21-May-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 111
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 17:34
Originally posted by Baal Melqart

Well, technically speaking it's not so easy to differentiate between North Mesopotamia and Kurdistan especially since the region never was officially called Kurdistan.

Anyway, thanks for the genetic explanation. I'm a science student so I understand the make-up of genes. But I am still very interested in these 'historical markers' , what they mean and to whom they belonged and where.


There's actually a differentiation between Kurdistan as a region and North Mesopotamia, it's just that some modern Kurds like to exaggerate on the actual size of this region, in terms of recent history Kurdistan was usually located around the Eastern Anatolia/Zagros area, and prior to that there was no Kurdistan, the area was called Urartu (Indicating that the Kurds are a mix of Caucasian/Iranian tribes).
Back to Top
MediaWarLord View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 28-Nov-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 19:38
You're very funny. And what was the area called before Urartu? Exactly before Urartu it was a Mittani Kingdom, Gutium, Karduniash (Kassite Empire / Neo-Babylon) etc. All those ancient people are part of the modern Kurds nowadays.
 
I don't know your deffinition of North Mesopotamia. But the capital of Kurdistan is Amed and it is located in North Mesopotamia. This is the place where the ancient Jews are from. Is Amed Assyrian too?
 
And what was ancient Assyria? Ancient Assyria was not more than 2 or 3 villages around Nineveh. It was not a big empire like some Assyrian resources make us to believe.
 
I don't care which names were given to Kurdistan in the past, but it was always inhabited by the Kurds. Like now when we refer to Kurdistan, we're talking about North Iraq, West Iran, Southeast Turkey.
 
When that land was called Urartu, Roman Empire etc. Kurds lived there. I don't know why, but people like to give different names to Kurdistan. Occupiers come and go, they change the name of our country. But Kurds stay faithful to their land and culture!
 
As long as Kurds live there we're talking about 'the land of the Kurds' or simplified: Kurdistan!


Edited by MediaWarLord - 05-Apr-2011 at 19:56
Back to Top
Putty19 View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 21-May-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 111
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 19:52
Originally posted by MediaWarLord

You're very funny. And what was the area called before Urartu? Exactly before Urartu it was a Mittani Kingdom, Gutium, Karduniash (Kassite Empire / Neo-Babylon) etc. All those ancient people are part of the modern Kurds nowadays.
 
I don't know your deffinition of North Mesopotamia. But the capital of Kurdistan is Amed and it is located in North Mesopotamia. This is the place where the ancient Jews are from. Is Amed Assyrian too?
 
And what was ancient Assyria? Ancient Assyria was not more than 2 or 3 villages around Nineveh. It was not a big empire like some Assyrian resources make us to believe.
 
I don't care which names were given to those lands in the past, but they were always inhabited by the Kurds. Like now when we are talking about Kurdistan, we're talking about North Iraq, West Iran, Southeast Turkey.
 
When that land was called Urartu, Roman Empire etc. Kurds lived there. I don't know why, but people like to give different names to Kurdistan. Occupiers come and go, they change the name of our country. But Kurds stay faithful to their land and culture!


Get it through your thick skull, there was no such thing as Kurdistan before Urartu, Mitanni was Mitanni, not Kurdistan.

Assyria was northern Mesopotamia which included modern province of Nineveh and big portions of Dohuk and Arbil in Iraq, stretching across Northeast Syria and portions of Southeast Turkey where the province of Urfa and Mardin are, in fact the last standing Assyrian capital was Harran, and that's located in Southeast Turkey near Urfa.

This entire area was dominated by a population that spoke Syriac, not Kurdish, today Arabic and Kurdish are dominating and the Assyrian Christians are being kicked out, so before you talk about occupiers I think you should think a little before posting.

Once more, I have nothing against Kurds and I support an independent Kurdistan, but people like you are an embarrassment, once again, I'm done discussing with your racist narrow minded unintellectual brain, good day.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.