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Revealing Hidden Pigment on Stone Artifacts |
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red clay 
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Tomato Master Emeritus Joined: 14-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 10226 |
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 Topic: Revealing Hidden Pigment on Stone ArtifactsPosted: 20-Dec-2010 at 09:56 |
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Does anyone have any knowledge of techniques which can reveal hidden pigments? I have a number of stone artifacts that have red ochre and another pigment, probably similar to one used by the colonial potters in this area, on them. The 2nd pigment is probably a mix of iron ox. and native cobalt.
Most of them have been exposed to fire. [ritual burial/cremation?] The fire was hot enough to cause the surface of some to turn glassy. So, it was hot enough to set the pigment.
I had an experience recently which completely changed my thinking on the artifacts in question. I put a rock, nothing special, a rock, in my fireplace. I was doing some experimental arch. and wanted to see if I could reproduce flakes as the Amerinds did. When I took the rock out of the ashes there was a drawing of a deer or similar animal. There are also faint suggestions of symbols and other markings on it. That's when I started to look more closely at the artifacts and discovered that most had something on them that couldn't be made out easily. We are talking extraordinarily old. Some of the artifacts suggest carvings of mastodons and one looks amazingly like a bison.
This culture has, for whatever reasons, slipped through the cracks. There is nothing regarding anything like this in the literature.
I have already tried a simple black light, or ultra violet, with no results. If anyone has any ideas or experience with anything like this, any help would be greatly appreciated.
Edited by red clay - 20-Dec-2010 at 10:11 |
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown. |
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Athena
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Joined: 28-Sep-2010 Location: Eugene, Oregon Online Status: Offline Posts: 403 |
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Posted: 20-Dec-2010 at 10:30 |
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Cryptic
Arch Duke 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 05-Jul-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1962 |
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Posted: 20-Dec-2010 at 12:41 |
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That is a wonderful idea by Athena.
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opuslola
Tsar 
suspended Joined: 23-Sep-2009 Location: Long Beach, MS, Online Status: Offline Posts: 4620 |
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Posted: 20-Dec-2010 at 18:37 |
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And soon you may well look the "fool?" Just any ordinary rock seems to exhibit ancient art?
Perhaps you should check your medications? 
But, we can always hope that you are successful, and become an "Emeritus" in another venue! Regards, PS, you actually deserved the above ridicule! You have certainly gone out of your way to ridicule me! Edited by opuslola - 20-Dec-2010 at 18:44 |
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red clay
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Tomato Master Emeritus Joined: 14-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 10226 |
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Posted: 21-Dec-2010 at 10:40 |
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The scope and scale of what I've found may be beyond your comprehension, so it's expected that you ridicule what you can't understand.
And I didn't have to go out of my way to ridicule you, you made it easy.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown. |
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Athena
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Joined: 28-Sep-2010 Location: Eugene, Oregon Online Status: Offline Posts: 403 |
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Posted: 23-Dec-2010 at 10:14 |
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Red Clay, you might take your questions to these folks, as they the experts in your region and may have the authority needed to protect the site.
Another suggestion is to turn to a local university with your questions. You can bet your last dollar that Opuslola will not be answering your question. This just is not our area of expertise.
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Athena
Baron
Joined: 28-Sep-2010 Location: Eugene, Oregon Online Status: Offline Posts: 403 |
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Posted: 24-Dec-2010 at 09:29 |
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Red Clay, this may not answer your question, but it is related information about identifying pigments on rocks. In google searches you might use the word rocks, because the word stone brings up information about kidney stones.
 http://pagerankstudio.com/Blog/2010/10/archaeometry-determina This is an on-line book about rock art that you may find useful http://books.google.com/books?id=MjoqRQE_xBYC&pg=PA7&lpg=P Edited by Athena - 24-Dec-2010 at 09:52 |
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red clay
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Tomato Master Emeritus Joined: 14-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 10226 |
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Posted: 24-Dec-2010 at 10:02 |
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I've alread been in touch with the ASNJ. One of it's members lives in town here. Protection of "the site" is a complex consideration. The township itself is approx. 12 square miles. So far I've identified [was 8] 11 artifact sites spread out thru the town. It seems that the older and more organised sites are those that are near the river, and consequently near to my home. I found the 11th site yesterday. 4 blocks from my home I was driving around looking for surface artifacts, sitting in a flower bed on a corner was a 20" long 16" high carved stone nesting duck. This appears to be a popular theme as I've found other examples of the same theme. It was dug up in their back yard. No one noticed what it was. It was just a "pretty rock". Next to their tool shed is a pile of burned, painted stones. They must have dug straight through a communal fire pit. I don't believe anyone realised what they had found. The only solution I can think of is to educate the community. Let them know what's underneath the town. The next step would be to have an archaeologist on call for the town.[considering the present financial concerns, that's not likely to happen.]
Well, as to the last part, you never know who will happen thru and see this. And you don't know where the best info will come from. I showed one of the pieces in question to one of the local cops.
he suggested that I give it to one of the detectives to see what they could make of it. They have infrared cameras and other goodies, so we'll see. I no longer have any contacts at the Uof P museum, but if I can't get any help elsewhere that's where I'll go.
Last thought-
 Since when did not knowing anything helpful prevent Opuslola from posting? |
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown. |
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Athena
Baron
Joined: 28-Sep-2010 Location: Eugene, Oregon Online Status: Offline Posts: 403 |
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Posted: 24-Dec-2010 at 10:29 |
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Here is the best site yet to answer your question.
http://courses.washington.edu/archyaec/archy401/Naumann.pdf By the way, I posted your question in a science forum and it comes up in a google search. If you want more people to know about what you are doing you can join the science forum and post in the thread. http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/53594-how-to-reveal-hidden-pigments/page__gopid__579753#entry579753 Have you contacted your local newspaper and TV news? That is the best way of informing people. I write letters to the editor when my story is not considered news worthy. Also do a little research so you can do a presentation, and take some of your finds to the local schools and tell the children what is sitting underneath their town. Children have often been the first to make such discoveries. A young girl was the first to discover art in the caves of France. When the children are alerted to this possibility then they can "see" what you are seeing, and they love to explore. If no one else will take action, turn it into crusade and recruit these children. Be sure they know how to contact you, and that they record where they find things. Artifacts without a known site loose their value. PS, my Dad died a few days ago. He loved science and especially geology. For my 50th birthday gift he gave me pieces of rock and pottery he had picked in two different ancient sites. He turned me onto these interest, or it could have come in the genes. It is really special to do what I can to help you get information and achieve your goals, right now. Edited by Athena - 24-Dec-2010 at 11:12 |
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opuslola
Tsar
suspended Joined: 23-Sep-2009 Location: Long Beach, MS, Online Status: Offline Posts: 4620 |
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Posted: 24-Dec-2010 at 14:03 |
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Dear redclay! I was rather "pithy" wasn't I? Sorry, but the know the old proverb "tit for tat", etc.? If you noticed I did send hope that you might well receive "emeritus" status for your finds!
My exact words were; "But, we can always hope that you are successful, and become an "Emeritus" in another venue!" Meaning, of course, good luck! And, not a "smart ass" good luck! Since we know so little about each other, and you have consistantly hurled insults and threats towards me, because of my beliefs, which obviously are not yours, I just could not fail to take advantage of your postings! Certainly I do not hope you are found to be a "fool!" I rather hope otherwise! And since this is the "Season" then I also send to you and yours my most high wishes for your health, wealth, and happiness! Since you appear to be studying Early Native American artefacts, I would just suggest that both of us "bury the hatchet!", so to speak! 
As a young person,I was constantly on the lookout for special rocks, etc., and collected them at all opportunities! I stll have some left, somewhere, in my household, including a few special examples! Mostly, I found that I could pick out a "geode" quite easily, and I have an especial rock, dark brown and smooth on the outside, and yet full of holes! It was about the size of a good potato! Inquisitive, I cracked it open, and it revealed that the entire rock was riddled with holes, each about the size of a small pea! One time, my late and loved mother, obviously trying to do me a favor, glued it back together! She was constantly trying to so nice things for me!
I have an old four layered fountain in my front courtyard (about nine feet high), that was beautifully patinaed by age, and one day, while she visited me, I came home and she was painting it with grey paint!
Boy, I sure wish I could come home again and find here there doing something similar, why I would yell out, and run to her and give her a loving hug and a kiss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Tears............ Happy holidays to you all! Please let us make bygones be bygones? Regards, Edited by opuslola - 24-Dec-2010 at 14:09 |
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red clay
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Tomato Master Emeritus Joined: 14-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 10226 |
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Posted: 24-Dec-2010 at 15:31 |
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Before we go getting sloppy, let's set something straight. I usually only return what I get. Unless your reffering to Fomenko. What I'm speaking of is far different. As for your "beliefs" which I don't think you really believe, only when you think it will stir things up. I do not respond to beliefs as an admin. , I respond to behavior.
Bury the hatchet? Here I am running around trying to dig the damn thing up and you want to bury it before I even find it.
On your rock, if you think back it probably had some strange structures within the rock. It's a fossil. The fossil parts are softer than the rest of the rock and weather much faster. Also, there are little critters that get into the holes that are started by weathering and can bore the softer rock . Thats one of the problems with some of the artifacts I've found. They were carved in fossil rock. There's a good chance if you were to polish the outside you'd have found that you could see parts of an animal.
I wish you all a Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!
BTW- Ron, I'm surprised you haven't brought the "Mississippian Culture" into this.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown. |
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opuslola
Tsar
suspended Joined: 23-Sep-2009 Location: Long Beach, MS, Online Status: Offline Posts: 4620 |
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Posted: 24-Dec-2010 at 19:39 |
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"BTW- Ron, I'm surprised you haven't brought the "Mississippian Culture" into this."
It is certainly a culture that needs a whole site devoted to it! Pyramids, tombs, walls, etc.! Way too much for me to consider! And, yes! I was mostly referring to the Fomenko responses! And the fossil in my collection is smoothed or almost polished on the outside of its "potato" shape! Either by hand or nature, I cannot be sure! If you actually wish to see it and handle it etc., please send me a private message with your address, and I shall lovingly wrap it and send it to you as a belated Christmass present! As far as I can remember I found it some where around Memphis! I just hope that you will not consider it as a "Pet Rock!" Laugh Thanks for the Holiday wishes! Regards, Edited by opuslola - 24-Dec-2010 at 19:47 |
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Pytheus
Samurai 
Joined: 10-Jul-2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 135 |
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Posted: 20-Jan-2011 at 08:34 |
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Flake, I'm guessing this rock was chert.
Knapped chert was often painted by the Amerindians.
Also it's not a good idea to put the stuff in the fire, it contains a lot of water and explodes like a bomb sending razer sharp shards in all directions. The correct method is to spawl it into smaller pieces, bury them in the ground and light a fire over them. Or fill a tin with sand, put them in deep in the sand, put a lid on the tin and bake in the oven.
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red clay
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Tomato Master Emeritus Joined: 14-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 10226 |
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Posted: 30-Jan-2011 at 13:23 |
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No, actually this rock is quartz. The rest of the artfacts aren't chert either. Or rather, the painted ones aren't. Chert is found in the areas I'm looking in. Not large deposits but chunks and nodules. I'm starting to think that the Paleo Passaic river must have run through here at one time. That might explain the abundance of glacial morain type material found here. The Glaciation line stopped about 100 miles north of here. But the paleo river probably brought a lot of that stuff down.
Again, thanks for your concerns Pyth. The uninitiated wouldn't know about things like that. However, if you remember, my background is in ceramics and I'm well aware of what unvented steam can do. [Got some pics somewhere that would make you cry
 ]What I've been finding here is a tendency to use quarts for certain types of tools. Seemingly from large flakes that came from the rocks used in the fire pit. Also from the "cooking stones" usually quartz rocks that are heated in the fire and then placed in a hide lined water filled hole. Done several times this will bring the contents to a boil rather quickly. It also exposed the rocks to thermal shock, producing some nice sized flakes. In some areas the river banks are just loaded with these stones. It's easy to spot them when their wet, the iron and other minerals in the rocks produced brillant colors when the rocks are heated.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown. |
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red clay
Administrator
Tomato Master Emeritus Joined: 14-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 10226 |
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Posted: 25-Feb-2011 at 16:29 |
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I have been distracted by real life lately, so it's taken a while to get some suitable pics. I'm still playing with the contrast with these.
   This particular artifact is flat enough I was able to scan it. The following pics are the reverse side.
This artifact shows considerable surface melt due to exposure to extreme heat. Council or cremation fires?
If anyone has any suggestions as to how I can get more detail, please let me know.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown. |
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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King of Kings Joined: 07-Aug-2004 Location: Iran Online Status: Offline Posts: 6240 |
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Posted: 01-Mar-2011 at 08:30 |
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Red, the resolution of your pics is just 100 dpi, if you want to see the details, you should increase it to at least 800 dpi in your scanner program.
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