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Posts: 403 		  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Christmas and Easter
    Posted: 08-Dec-2010 at 12:27
In resolving our differences, it is always to nice to find what we can agree about.  For sure Christmas is the time of winter solstices and Easter is at the time of vernal equinox.  Decmeber 25 is the birthday of Mithra, a Perisan god adopted by Rome and spread as far as the British Isle.  Mithra is a war god and was favored by Roman soldiers and bureaucrats.  It appears because people with power worshipped this god, it was blended with Jesus when Christianity was made the offical religion of Rome. 
 
Easter has more Eygptian roots, with the Easter Bunny and Easter Egg, representing new life in Spring and resurrection of life.  This celebration of resurrection and new life being less dependent on Babyolon's astromony than the birth day of Mithra, because the change would so obvious to everyone.
 
Solstices
The solstices are days when the Sun reaches its farthest northern and southern declinations. The winter solstice occurs on December 21 or 22 and marks the beginning of winter (this is the shortest day of the year). The summer solstice occurs on June 21 and marks the beginning of summer (this is the longest day of the year).

Equinoxes
Equinoxes are days in which day and night are of equal duration. The two yearly equinoxes occur when the Sun crosses the celestial equator.

The vernal equinox occurs in late March (this is the beginning of spring in the Northern Hemisphere and the beginning of fall in the Southern Hemisphere); the autumnal equinox occurs in late September (this is the beginning of fall in the Northern Hemisphere and the beginning of spring in the Southern Hemisphere). n



Edited by Athena - 08-Dec-2010 at 12:47
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2010 at 12:30
Originally posted by Athena

Easter has more Eygptian roots, with the Easter Bunny and Easter Egg, representing new life in Spring and resurrection of life. 
 
      I think eggs and the easter bunny were taken from slavic paganism


Edited by Cryptic - 13-Dec-2010 at 12:31
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2010 at 18:49
I think the Christmas and Easter was started by the Paganism. (Paganism means the one who worship sun, people.) Hope this helps.Wink
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Posts: 403 		  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2010 at 20:43
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by Athena

Easter has more Eygptian roots, with the Easter Bunny and Easter Egg, representing new life in Spring and resurrection of life. 
 
      I think eggs and the easter bunny were taken from slavic paganism
 
Thank you, there are sites that confirm what you said. 
 
"Eggs were once a part of Polish pagan tradition and still symbolize spring, renewal, fertility, and eternity"
 
Traditionally mothers and daughters would decorate the eggs.  Men were not to participate, because that could lead to bad luck.  The Catholic Church forbid the eating of these eggs, because it wanted to separate itself from the pagan tradition. 
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Posts: 403 		  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2010 at 21:36
It is incomplete to say the Easter egg is Slavic, and the whole point of this particular thread is that Christmas and Easter are pagan celebrations tied to seasonal cycles, that were Christianized.  That is why this thread is Nature instead of myth and theocracy.  The following link list several ancient cultures that recognized the Spring as" resurrection of life".  Babylon is considered perhaps the first culture to celebrate the Spring resurrection of life, but most sights speak of the connection between Christianity and Egypt.
 
http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/brief-history-of-origins-symbols-of-easter.html
The son of Isis, Horus was claimed to have been born Dec. 25. Forty weeks back from that (an average length of pregnancy) brings us to March 21, the vernal or spring equinox. 

 
 
I just checked native American celebrations and it is interesting that only the Hopi seem to determined a celebration on an astronomical event.  The Anasazi in New Mexico wouldn't be that far from the Hopi, and their village was designed to reflect the moons path, to create heaven on earth.   They may have had more celebrations recognizing astronomical events, but we don't have good information on them.  I think these tribes may have had contact with the Aztec who did studied the skies.  Some tribes geared their celebration on the time to sow seeds, but not the cycles of astronomical events.   
 
It would be my guess that cultures that recognized astrological events, had contact with Babylon? 


Edited by Athena - 13-Dec-2010 at 22:25
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Posts: 403 		  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2010 at 11:18
Eat drink and be merry.  We are headed into the straving time, but the sun god/goddess will return and bring life back.  At structures such as Stonehenge people could observe the winter solstice, and know the course of the sun had reversed.  Where winters were bad, this was the time to kill animals that could not be fed during the starving time, and it was when the alcoholic brew would be fermented and ready to drink, so of course this is a great time to eat, drink and be merry.  
 
winter solstice recognized around the world


Edited by Athena - 14-Dec-2010 at 11:21
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2010 at 14:22
Regarding the dating of Easter, there is probaby no question of the past that has been so examined, and argued, as was the dating of Easter?

Regarding "Equin-oxes?", just what is the first part of this word and the last part? "Equin" could easily stand for "Equine" or "horse" and it is obvious what "oxes" means!

Thus could it mean the division of the starry sky into two even sides, one being the "horse" and the other the "Ox?"

Now, I know that today we could not consider such, because of this;

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=equinox

And, of course in my lead in sentence, I also made the distinction of "equal" sides, etc.!

But, can we really be sure of the currently accepted answer? Perhaps the word has been convoluted, or changed over the centuries?

And, perhaps I am full of it?
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2010 at 15:19

Originally posted by Athena

In resolving our differences, it is always to nice to find what we can agree about.  For sure Christmas is the time of winter solstices and Easter is at the time of vernal equinox.  Decmeber 25 is the birthday of Mithra, a Perisan god adopted by Rome and spread as far as the British Isle.  Mithra is a war god and was favored by Roman soldiers and bureaucrats.  It appears because people with power worshipped this god, it was blended with Jesus when Christianity was made the offical religion of Rome.

The origin of Christmas is in fact from an Irano-Germanic Pagan festival named Yalda/Yuletide, Yalda is already the second most important Iranian festival, after Noruz, I doubt the majority of Iranians know that it was originally the birthday of Mithra, they consider it just as the longest night of the year, families gather together this night and don't sleep until almost dawn, they eat red fruits, like watermelon and pomegranate, grandparents repeat their ancient stories, ...
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Posts: 403 		  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2010 at 10:08
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Athena

In resolving our differences, it is always to nice to find what we can agree about.  For sure Christmas is the time of winter solstices and Easter is at the time of vernal equinox.  Decmeber 25 is the birthday of Mithra, a Perisan god adopted by Rome and spread as far as the British Isle.  Mithra is a war god and was favored by Roman soldiers and bureaucrats.  It appears because people with power worshipped this god, it was blended with Jesus when Christianity was made the offical religion of Rome.

The origin of Christmas is in fact from an Irano-Germanic Pagan festival named Yalda/Yuletide, Yalda is already the second most important Iranian festival, after Noruz, I doubt the majority of Iranians know that it was originally the birthday of Mithra, they consider it just as the longest night of the year, families gather together this night and don't sleep until almost dawn, they eat red fruits, like watermelon and pomegranate, grandparents repeat their ancient stories, ...
 
I am glad their are people who recognize the date for what it is; the longest night of the year, instead of believing a myth is factual, such as the birth of Jesus and the 3 magi who came bearing gifts. 
 
This is totally the wrong time of the year for us to eat watermelon.  Your seaons must be different from ours, unless the watermelon is pickled.   I love pickled watermelon rind.  We are experiencing cold winter days.  What are you experiencing?  What are some of the stories told?    What is Noruz? 
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2010 at 15:35
As you read here: Iran celebrates longest night, Wanting to have stock to sell at Yalda, fruit vendors even keep watermelons and other fruit from the summer harvest refrigerated until the winter feast.
 
Pomegranate is an early autumn fruit and can't be found these days too but for Yalda, you can find a large number of them in the markets, winter is also cold in Iran, I think one of reasons that Iranians eat these fruits in the longest night of the year is to feel the heat of summer in one of the coldest days of the year.
 
Noruz is the Persian new year, it is celebrated on the 21st of March of each year.
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2010 at 17:55
Cyrus! You wrote; "..they eat red fruits, like watermelon and pomegranate, grandparents repeat their ancient stories, ..."

Do you know of any religious thought that would promote "red fruit?" In other words is it a "blood" symbol, etc.?

Certainly the "blood sport" of Mithra, was cutting the neck of the bull!, and the very history of the pomegranate, makes it an interesting fruit!

Just look up all of the folk lore and mythology concerning it and its symbolism! The watermelon, is similar, since in nature, it is a fruit bursting with seeds!

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 17-Dec-2010 at 17:59
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2010 at 12:28
Red can be related to "blood" but also fire and heat, in fact red color is a symbol of fire in Zoroastrianism, of course there is a ceremony which is called the sacrifice of the watermelon in Yalda!!! That is similar to the birthday cake-cutting ceremony, the difference is that sometimes watermelon is not sweet and red on the inside, as it is expected to be. Anyway it is possible that watermelon has been replaced to an animal, like a sheep, or even a bull.
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2010 at 21:20
I thought as much! So, in reality, the symbolism of red to blood cannot be denied! At least as it might be related to the "Killing and bleeding of the perfect 'red heffer!"?

And just what religious and pure animal did both cultures revere?
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2010 at 23:24
What do you mean by "both" cultures? Lion is revered in different cultures as a symbol of power.
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2010 at 08:54
Cyrus wrote-
 
As you read here: Iran celebrates longest night, Wanting to have stock to sell at Yalda, fruit vendors even keep watermelons and other fruit from the summer harvest refrigerated until the winter feast.
 
 
I don't know when the tradition started or who started it, but in our family it's always been a tradition to have watermelon on New Years day.  Today watermelon can be flown in from any number of warm climes.  When I was a child the watermelon was waxed and kept in a root celler.
You can keep a number of vegetables in that manner without refrigeration.  But the whys and who have been lost in time.
 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2010 at 11:10

I just read an interesting article about different festivals in these days: http://www.timeslive.co.za/sundaytimes/article820978.ece/The-List--December-Festivals

The List: December Festivals
Dec 18, 2010 5:59 PM | By Aubrey Paton

HANUKKAH: Falls this year from December 2 to 9 and is also known as The Festival of Lights. It is an eight-day Jewish holiday commemorating the rededication of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in 165 BC.
 
Candles are lit on a special nine-branched Menorah, blessings are recited and sometimes songs and psalms are sung. Traditionally fried foods are eaten - latke (potato pancakes), doughnuts and fritters, prepared in olive oil.

BODHI DAY: December 8 - celebrates the day the historical Buddha, Siddhartha, experienced enlightenment, forsaking years of ascetic deprivation to sit under a Pipul tree and meditate, discovering the Four Noble Truths and finally reaching Nirvana. Buddhists observe it with additional meditation, the chanting of texts and performing kind acts.

YALDA: December 21 - is an Iranian festival dating back to the pre-Christian Mithraic religion: Mithras, the Persian god of light and truth, was born of a virgin mother (sound familiar?) and his birth on the longest night of the northern winter was seen as a victory over evil. More recently, the Zoroastrians adopted the feast, turning it into a social occasion when the last fruits of summer - water- melon and pomegranate - are served.

PANCHA GANAPATHI: December 21 to 25 is a period celebrating the Hindu Lord Ganesha, patron of arts and guardian of culture, during which a shrine is erected in the main room of the house and redecorated in a different colour every day. Offerings of fruit and incense are made and children receive gifts which they put around the shrine .

KWANZAA: December 26 to January 1 is a time during which African Americans celebrate their African heritage. It was created in 1966 by Ron Karenga, who urged black people to shun Christmas as a white festival . It has been transformed into a holiday Christians can also enjoy and is marked by the lighting of candles and the pouring of libations, culminating in the exchange of gifts and a feast of foods seen as originating from Africa.

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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2010 at 11:39
Originally posted by red clay

Cyrus wrote-
 
As you read here: Iran celebrates longest night, Wanting to have stock to sell at Yalda, fruit vendors even keep watermelons and other fruit from the summer harvest refrigerated until the winter feast.
 
 
I don't know when the tradition started or who started it, but in our family it's always been a tradition to have watermelon on New Years day.  Today watermelon can be flown in from any number of warm climes.  When I was a child the watermelon was waxed and kept in a root celler.
You can keep a number of vegetables in that manner without refrigeration.  But the whys and who have been lost in time.
 
 
I don't know about the history of watermelon but I doubt it could be found in Iran or Europe in the ancient times, I think the importance of it in the Yalda festival is just because its red color, anyway it really tastes good to eat some summer fruits in a warm place in one of the coldest days of the year.
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Posts: 403 		  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2010 at 12:03
The pomegranate represents righteousness and life.  I am now totally convinced, much of what is Jewish was Zoroastrian, as it is Jewish to hold the pomegranate represents righteousness, and this had to be a Zoroastrian concept.   If you google "pomegranate represents life" you will get several offerings.   The basic symbolism is shared by many cultures, as Cyrus makes evident. 
 
We also know of the pomegranate through the Greek story about Demeter and her daughter who was stolen by Hades.  Because the daughter ate 6 pomegranate seeds, Hades gets to keep her 6 months out of the year, and her mother gets her the other 6.  Because Demeter is unhappy when her daughter is in Hades, we have winter, when Demeter is in mourning for her daughter.  When her daughter returns to her, Demeter is happy she returns to making plants grow.
 
Opus, pointed out the red of the friuts would represent blood, and I will add to this, the bible tells us life in the blood.
 
I love all this symbolism.  Hades is the dark place, the Lie.  The pomegranate is righteousness and life.   Can you imagine all these people sharing basically the same ideas but putting their own twist on them, and many years later we have forgotten the connections and argue things like, no this isn't a Zoroastrian god but a Roman one.  Hey, it is everyones Gods and everyones understanding and everyones holiday.   We need to get over our imagined differences. 
 
Thanks Red Clay for the method for saving the fall harvest.  Next fall I will wax my squashes and see if they keep better.  I have marveled at how some squash naturally stays good for months, and others decay rapidly.  Obviously organisms play a role in the decay, and cleaning and waxing the squash, now makes sense.  Part of my love of gardening is a love for the mysteries of life. 
 
I google for a meaning attached to watermelon and a recent one created by an interesting person points out watermelon is hard on the outside and sweet inside.  I am starting a thread with his point of view about the difference of opinion between the rich and poor. 
 
Shalom


Edited by Athena - 19-Dec-2010 at 12:15
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On Roseta stone ,they celebrate 18th of march  like equinoxes .They called this day Festival of Deities Fire..
Hmm...Festival of Live...literary...
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2010 at 13:40
As I mentioned in another thread, Pomegranate has been always revered as a holy fruit in the Iranian culture, for example you can see a pomegranate flower in the hand of ancient Persian kings in the bas-reliefs of Persepolis:
 
 
 
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