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Prophets, Reformers and Heretics

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  Quote Saki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Prophets, Reformers and Heretics
    Posted: 09-Apr-2005 at 23:06

Who can provide information on the men who helped propagate the Religious/ Spiritual Culture of Persia far and wide , both Historically or Contemporaneously?

Lets start the ball rolling with:

Zoroaster: Old Persia

Nestorius: Central Asia/ China

Bahaiullah: India/ Africa

Bogomil?: Balkans/ C.Europe

Salman al Fars: Islamic World

Rumi: Contemporary West/ Islamic World

Nurbakhsh: America/ Europe/ W.Africa

 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 05:43

Again: Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi was Turkish. It doesnt make him a Persian propogater or genetically Persian because he wrote mostly with Persian language.

If that makes him a Persian, Saki, you are a British, since all your posts in AE are in English!

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  Quote Behrouz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 12:39
Aren't his parents persian, and isn't he born in Balkh?  I can't see how he's turkish if he immigrated there. Can you explain how you figure he's turkish?

This is the story I know:
Jalaluddin Rumi is was born in Balkh, Mazar-i Sharif (present-day Afghanistan) on September 30, 1207CE, to a family of well-known mystics and scholars. His full name was Jalaluddin Mohammed but he became known as 'Rumi' - meaning from Rome - because his father Baha-uddin Balad later moved to Anatolia, once the base of the eastern Roman empire, in the wake of the Mongol invasion in 1219.
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  Quote Saki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 16:03

This is the first i've heard of Rumi being a Turk. Speaks volumes of Turkish hospitality though. Step foot on our soil and you're one of us!

Also when did the Turks arrive in Pontic Anatolia anyway and sweep aside the pre-existing peoples and their cultural achievements?

Its housed many cultures millenia before the Turks were ever anywhere near the Plateau!

Fire away!

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 18:02

It doesnt make him a Persian if he was born in Persia. So I should be Hittite guy because I was born in Konya.

Step foot on your soil and we are one of you? Well, so Alexander and Tughrul Beg were Persian.

Fire away? Dont be hursh and jelous that much just because our ancestors conquered the lands that yours always wanted to own. Anatolia isnt Pontic. But Trabzon and around it was before we conquered. We didnt sweep aside the other existing cultures, in fact, we developed them and expanded them just like the Seljuks did to Persia.

But believe me, Turkic people immigrated around these lands in ancient times. And all around the world.

Did you also know that Iraq housed ancient cultures before Arabs settled there?

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  Quote Behrouz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 18:11
I still haven't got the answer to my question. So how is rumi a turk, if his is genetically a persian, he speaks and writes persian and he was born in persia?

By your logic I'm a canadian just because I immigrated here few years ago?


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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 19:47

Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Again: Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi was Turkish. It doesnt make him a Persian propogater or genetically Persian because he wrote mostly with Persian language.



If that is what they teach in schools in Turkey that is incorrect. Here is more information about Rumi:


Encarta:

Rumi, Jalal al-Din (1207-1273), Persian mystic and poet, whose verse is permeated by elements of Sufism, a movement of Islamic mysticism. Born in Balkh, in what is now Afghanistan, Rumi traveled with his family during his youth and eventually settled in Konya, in what is now Turkey. In 1244 he accepted the friendship and religious guidance of Shams al-Din, a dervish (devotee of Sufism) from Tabrz, Iran. Rumi hoped to devote his life to creating poetry expressing his feelings for his spiritual master. Shams al-Din disappeared unexplainedly in 1247 and over the years Rumi composed nearly 30,000 verses expressing his feelings at this loss. Later spiritual friendships again inspired his poetry, notably the epic poem Masnavi-ye Manavi (Spiritual Couplets, mid-13th century), which had an enormous influence on Islamic literature and thought

 

Wikipedia:

Jalal al-Din Muhammad Rumi or Jalal al-Din Muhammad Balkhi (also known as Mowlavi or Moulana, meaning our guide or our lord in Arabic and Farsi, or Mevlana meaning our guide in Turkey) (September 30, 1207 - December 17, 1273 CE) was a Persian poet and Sufi mystic, who was born in Balkh (then a city of the greater Khorasan province, Persia at that time, present Afghanistan) and died in Konya (present Turkey, then within the Seljuk Empire's territory). When the Mongols invaded Central Asia, his father (Baha'al din Veled) set out to Konya, Anatolia within the westernmost territories of Seljuk Empire. Rumi was 18 years old at that time. Rumi was sent to Damascus and Aleppo to obtain religious education. His father became the head of a Madrassah (religious school) and when his father died Rumi succeeded him, at the age of 25. He was trained in the religious and mystical doctrines by Syed Burhan al-Din but it was his meeting with the dervish Shams Tabriz that changed his life completely. Rumi spent most of his later years of life in Anatolia and also completed his masterpiece there. He died on December 17, 1273 in Konya in present day Turkey; Rumi was laid to rest beside his father, and a splendid shrine was erected over his tomb.


 

 

 



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  Quote Saki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 20:24

Exactly!

It seems to be part of a pattern of commentary from our Turkish brothers in this forum to react overly emotionally to numerous threads, rather than presenting counterbalancing data in a rational and meaningful manner but then in my personal experience,It seems a recurrent theme of Turkish History to making sweeping claims to ownership of different peoples and countries without the slightest regards for historical documentation anyway!

Having worked for Physicians Against Torture i see all too clearly the dangers of where this jingoism leads to. On a net forum it is good fun, but on the ground where you have no recourse to protection from institutionalised forces that embody these opinions it means imprisonment, torture , rape and extra-judicial killings for those unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end. Try visiting an Anatolian prison to see how well tolerated the issues of history and race are treated.

It is interesting to see how a thread can degenerate so rapidly due to the initial sense of grievance of one link in the chain from the original topic to something altogether less healthy.

Size karshi nasil davrandik turkche?

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 20:43

Rumi lived and practiced in Seljuk Turkey for about 40 years. He was not persian. Since Persia proper was ruled by various non Iranian (persian) tribes and empires at the time.

The following is a link from the Rumiforum.

Rumi was born in the city of Balkh in 1207, at a time when all of Asia was suffering from social, political, and military problems. His father, Muhammad Bahauddin al-Siddiqi, was part of the tenth generation of the descendants of Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first caliph of Islam. According to Tahir al-Mawlawi, Rumis mother was also from the descendants of the Prophet. He was the blessed fruit of a hallowed family tree. Being known as the Sultan al-Ulama (the Leader of Scholars), his father was a man of truth and an heir of the Prophet. Like many friends of God, he was persecuted and eventually compelled to migrate. Accordingly, he left the land of Kharzam, where he was born, and underwent a lengthy journey that encompassed various destinations. First, he and his family visited the Holy Land, the cities of Makka and Madina. From here, he traveled and remained for some time in Damascus, where he met many pious persons, such as Ibn Arabi, and exchanged spiritual enlightenment with them. Accompanying his father, the young Rumi, six or seven years in age, witnessed these and other events; his inquisitive senses enabled him to experience all of these with remarkable clarity. The young Rumi was able to understand his environment even at such a tender age and he was able to penetrate into the secret world of Ibn Arabi. As an endowment of his presence with Ibn Arabi, the child received kindness and favors. Despite the unfortunate circumstances surrounding their migration and the many difficulties that accompanied them, the familys journey provided them with a variety of favors and inspiration. Like Abraham, Moses, and the Prophet of Islam, may Gods blessings be upon all of them, Rumi was able to continuously find these blessings and favors. Welcoming what fate gave him, he became a receiver of numerous bounties provided by God.

The journey took this blessed family to the city of Erzincan, and later to that of Karaman. It was during his time in the latter city that Rumi studied, for a short period, in the Halaveye School. In addition to this school, he studied Islamic Sciences in several religious schools in Damascus and Aleppo. After graduating, he returned to the city of Konya, which he considered his hometown and a place of special regard. It was there that he married Gevher Hatun, the daughter of Shamsaddin Samarqandi. After some time Rumis father, Sultan al-Ulama, died, returning to God. Under the supervision of Burhanneddin al-Tirmidhi, Rumi began his long spiritual journey. After several years, at the suggestion of Ruknuddin Zarqubi, Rumi met with Shams al-Tabrizi who was then on a visit to Konya. It was through his meeting with Shams that he furthered his spiritual journey and eventually developed into the person who is now known the world over for his spiritual depth. What has been mentioned so far, in fact, represents an attempt to open a few small windows on the life of an exceptional personality in this creation, whose capacity is open to the lofty world. This is also an attempt to present the life of an important representative of the Muhammadi spirit (i.e., the practice of the Sunna)displaying several snapshots of a man determined to dedicate his existence to the world of the afterlife.

 

Another page says:

 

Rumi the Sufi  
          a spiritual force in the secular world

2002 Kenneth Hawley Hamilton M.D.

Jalal-ud-din Rumi is the most popular poet in LACE>North AmericaLACE>. Nearly every poetically minded person who is anyone quotes him. However, he is not an American. Furthermore, he did not know anything about LACE>AmericaLACE> when he was alive. He was born Mawlana Jalal-ud-din Mohammed on ATE Month="9" Day="30" Year="1207">30 September, 1207ATE>, 285 years before LACE>ColumbusLACE> discovered LACE>AmericaLACE>. He was born in LACE>BalkhLACE>, the thriving and beautiful ancient capital of LACE>BactriaLACE>, now LACE>AfghanistanLACE> . LACE>BalkhLACE> lies about 14 miles due west of the city of the Muslim world whose name means tomb of the saint, Mazar-e-Sharif. The particular saint was Ali, son-in-law of the Prophet Muhammad.

Then, as now, that region of the world was the source of many mortal conflicts, and by 1207 LACE>BalkhLACE> had violently changed hands many times in its history. However, in this time, Genghis Khan and his brutal army of Mongols had begun their onslaughts in 1206 and, fortunately for the world, Mawlanas father, Baha-ud-din Muhammad, foresaw the coming of the Mongol horde and took his family west into Roman Anatolia in 1219. The Mongols overwhelmed LACE>BalkhLACE> in 1220, putting its occupants to the sword and destroying the city with its more than seven miles of outer walls. The Mongol pressures on the Muslim world were immeasurable. Though Genghis Khan died in 1227, his reputation succeeded him and it was not until 1260 that the Mamluk princes of LACE>EgyptLACE> finally routed the Mongols from LACE>PersiaLACE> .

At the same time, in the west, the Christians had been carrying on their crusades for 200 years, putting a murderous force on Islam from that direction. These two lethal forces had greatly weakened the steely power of the Holy Prophet. The spiritual beauty and strength of Islam was crumbling, shuddering, threatening to collapse completely, its fire dimmed to a few sparks. It was in this world that Mawlana Jalal-ud-din Mohammed Balkhi took his first breath. When he let go of the last on ATE Month="12" Day="17" Year="1273">December 17th 1273ATE>, he was known as Mawlana Jalal-ud-din Rumi, and he had indeed breathed fire back into Islam. He had started a fire that would endure to the present. In our time, it would appear that he breathes fire into the most ecumenical and yet secular nation in the world! Let us see now how that happened.


Birth and childhood:

Rumis family had moved to LACE>BalkhLACE> several generations before his birth. His forefathers developed a solid reputation as educators, jurists, and spiritual leaders--Sufis. Rumis father, Baha-ud-din Muhammad, was a great scholar and teacher for which the community recognized him with the title, Sultan of Scholars. He had grown up in an atmosphere of hostility toward classical Greek philosophy and rationalism sparked by the career of the remarkable philosopher, Imam al-Ghazali (1058-1111 CE). Al-Ghazali had become a Sufi late in his life out of a health crisis that precipitated a critical opening to a heartfelt passion for the Quran and the Traditions of Islam. He took it squarely into the face of the Islamic establishment that was working to make the Quran a rational document. In his mind, this caused the loss of inner strength that threatened Islams very existence, caught, as it were, in the vice between the Mongols and the Christians. As we shall see, the way of the Sufi is the way of the heart. It became the way of both Baha-ud-din and Jalal-ud-din, and Baha-ud-din had twenty-four years in which to share his passion for heart-centered thinking and teaching with his son.

Baha-ud-dins discipleship to al-Ghazali got him in trouble with Fakhr ad-din ar-Razi (1149-1209 CE), a brilliant, aggressive and vengeful Muslim theologian and scholar whose passion was to bring neoplatonic rationalism to Islam. Whereas al-Ghazali had been highly successful in the negation of metaphysics and rationalism in his defense of Islam and would likely have prevailed against Razi, Baha-ud-din was hindered by a fanatical allegiance to al Ghazalihe was not his own man. Razis death in 1209 probably spared Rumis father a lot of trouble.

Rumis growing years were not without the trauma of brutality. In 1210, he was with his father in Samarqand when it was conquered by the Khwarizmshah. He was witness to the needless and senseless slaughter of many of its residents. Understandably, these memories stayed with him for the rest of his life.

His father left LACE>BalkhLACE> for the west in 1212, apparently to further his education. The family went to Nishabur (modern Neyshabur) in northeastern LACE>IranLACE> where Rumi met the famous Sufi poet, Farid-ud-din Attar. Attar is recognized as one of the greatest Muslim mystical poets and thinkers, writing at least 45,000couplets and many brilliant prose works (Encyclopedia Britannica), and it is certain that the visit to Nishabur was for the purpose of meeting Attar. Attar gave young Rumi a copy of his Book of Secrets and blessed the young man with the prediction that soon he would light a fire in the hearts of all mystic lovers (de Vitray-Meyerovitch 18).

The family returned to LACE>BalkhLACE> in 1219 to find the city in turmoil. The Mongols were threatening and the typical anxiety in the face of this mortal threat created a pervasive attitude of hatred and intrigue. It was time to leave--for good.

They went back to Nishapur and from there to LACE>BaghdadLACE> where they heard of the destruction of LACE>BalkhLACE> . From LACE>BaghdadLACE>, Baha made the traditional pilgrimage to LACE>MeccaLACE> . On his return, they stayed in LACE>BaghdadLACE> less than a year before resuming their peregrinations. They lived in at least two other cities during the next decade, during which time Rumi married the daughter of a Samarqandi and had a son a year later. Finally, in 1229, a patron appeared and called Baha and his family to the capital of the Saljuq Empire, the south central Anatolian city of LACE>KonyaLACE> . LACE>AnatoliaLACE> had been a Roman province. Accordingly, it was known regionally as Rum, so the Bhalki of Jalaluddins name became Rumi. The family was safe here in LACE>KonyaLACE> and, with the exception of educational journeys, Rumi would live here for the rest of his life.



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  Quote Behrouz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 20:52
I'm sorry but none of the links you provided, granted I didn't read it to the end, provided that he wasn't persian. According to your links, his father and he himself are both born in persia, he speaks and writes persian poems. Can you explain to me exactly what it takes for a person to be of a certain nationality ? They just clearly show the amount of negative propaganda against Iranians and Persians in the history, where persian poets/scientists/philosphers are called anything but persian, anything from arab to turkish to labanese to syrian.


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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 21:16

The first post is from www.rumiforum.org

 

 

The next one is from www.mevlana.net

page-1.gif (8477 bytes)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



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  Quote Behrouz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 21:27
Please post clear messages, there are also many sites on the internet claiming Persian Gulf is actually Arabian Gulf. Just because there are some sites on the internet which believe the turkish story, doesn't really say much.

I'm still waiting a clear reply as to how can a person whose father is born in persia and he himself is born there and speaks the language and even writes his poem in that language is somehow not persian but turkish.

Oh and since we're having fun posting links,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi
Clearly states he is persian. That's a hell of a lot more credible source than your turkish propaganda fan sites for rumi.


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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 21:37
Hold on there. The resources I presented tell the history of Rumi actually being born under territories of Balkh. I never said he was Turkish by blood, even though a few sites hint of that. The resource I presented states the Rumi was born of parents with Arabic names. Still this does not prove his nationality he was born under. Speaking Persian, Arabic or Turkish is not a prerequisite for his origins either. Since lanquage he used is a reflection of his broad multilingual relations. You may also know that many "Persians", Arabs and Turks by blood also lived, at his time, in the territories currently called Iran (Persia).
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  Quote Saki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 21:57

Anyway the Whole beauty of the term 'Persian' is that it encompasses many small nations under one Cultural umbrella. That shared heritage is what gives Persia its Elan in the Old World.

They did not descend into this childish charade of Who belongs to Who.

Britain is a Glorious nation whose Empire spanned a 1/3 of the known globe. It is also and always has been very diverse, but all are Brits in the Lexicon of Britains Halls of Fame regardsless of whether they were Scot, Welsh, English. Cornish, Scouse. No doubt if somebody wrecks the territorial integrity of Britain, in years to come people shall talk of these icons as Icons of the Sub Nationalities that comprise Britain. Just as we try to dissect poor Mevlana to find out who owns him.

Very unSufi like indeed this misplaced Nationalism.

He was Persian and thats all there is to it!

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  Quote Behrouz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 22:00
So let's examine, what do you call a person who is born in Balkh and is the son of a person who was born in Khwarazm?

Of course rumi has arabic names, so does just about everyone in the era! Even today a filipono person might have an arabic name, doesn't mean they're arabs.




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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 22:10
He may very well have been Persian. But I hope you have more proof of that instead of labeling his birthpalce or intial lanquage as the sole arbitor of his heritage. The name of the empire he was born under then could just as well claim historical rights to his heritage. Was there an empire of Persia that he was born in? Otherwise, I do see the point that Persia can claim him as a nobel figure since he is now regarded as being raised in Persian zones of influence.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 17:04

Originally posted by Behrouz

I still haven't got the answer to my question. So how is rumi a turk, if his is genetically a persian, he speaks and writes persian and he was born in persia?

By your logic I'm a canadian just because I immigrated here few years ago?

Please, please dont make me rewrite my post again and again just to make you understand some English, but reread it and then respond to them.

Where did you get your information about Mevlana being a Persian? He is not genetically Persian. How can you believe a man whose father, Bahaeddin Veled is Turkish is Persian? He spoke and wrote his poems in Persian, but he was Turkish. Kapish?

His family immigrated to Balkh from central asia. Because Oguz Turks and the leading Empire (Seljuk Empire) conquered Persia and Afghanistan. This is why he could be born in the city Balkh.

Why dont you get my point and even say that my mentality is opposite to the things I wrote in my last post. I wrote that "It doesnt make me a Hittite guy just because my ancestors immigrated to Anatolia once". But after this berief and logical sentence, you conclude your post with this redicilous sentence: "By your logic I'm a canadian just because I immigrated here few years ago?". So please, try to understand because I am tired of writing and trying to explain simple and logical things again and again to some forumers. Just respect my efforts.



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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 17:32

A member of the next generations of Mevlana's family, Arif elebi was appointed as the successor of the Begh of Menteshe. Just to remind you: Non-Turkmens couldnt be placed as "uchbegh" to any beghliks of the Empire.

Seljuk(Salchuklu) Empire were a Oguz Turkish Empire that occupied the lands from today's northern Kyrgzistan to Aegean Sea. The ruler dynasty, whose builder was Selchuk Bey, immigrated to the cith of Gend from eastern Aral sea and converted to Islam with his followers. He was a son of a "Subashi" in the Oguz Yabgu Khanate. The main language of the Empire was Turkish, but the official language for diplomatic and political area was a mixture of Persian and Turkish.

Here is the Seljuk Flag:

The blue background represents the Oguz Turks and Turkish rule. The two eagles represent ruling both the East and the west under its rule, and the arch and bow on the eagles are the symbols of "Bozok" and "ok" (Uchok) tribes of Oguz Turks.

Mevlana's father side immigrated to Khwarezmia after the great Turkish migrations to Seljuk Empire. Then, Mevlana's father immigrated to Balkh, a city in southeastern Seljuk Empire. He was a scholar who was a master about Turkish, Persian, Arabic, Islamic and Greek civilizations. He knew Persian like his mother language, and learning Persian was very popular at those times btw the elite labor and ruler society.



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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 23:21
Originally posted by Saki

Who can provide information on the men who helped propagate the Religious/ Spiritual Culture of Persia far and wide , both Historically or Contemporaneously?

Lets start the ball rolling with:

Zoroaster: Old Persia

Nestorius: Central Asia/ China

Bahaiullah: India/ Africa

Bogomil?: Balkans/ C.Europe

Salman al Fars: Islamic World

Rumi: Contemporary West/ Islamic World

Nurbakhsh: America/ Europe/ W.Africa

 

how did Salman Al Farisi helped propagate the Religious/ Spiritual Culture of Persia far and wide??

 

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  Quote Behrouz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 11:17
Originally posted by Oguzoglu



Please, please dont make me rewrite my post again and again just to make you understand some English, but reread it and then respond to them.

Where did you get your information about Mevlana being a Persian? He is not genetically Persian. How can you believe a man whose father, Bahaeddin Veled is Turkish is Persian? He spoke and wrote his poems in Persian, but he was Turkish. Kapish?


First you need to define what exactly makes a person belong to a certain nationality and then we can talk. His father was also born in khwarazm according  to seko's quotes.  Now if he's been living in Iran for two generations , does that make him iranian or does having an arab ancestor (being adescendant of prophet) make him an arab.  Either way, there's simply no logic  to make him turkish.

So to simplify things for  you again, there are two ways to  look  at where he's from. Either by looking at his ancestors as you like to do, in which case he's an arab by true genetics.  I found this argument completely meaningless specially in an ancient world which  people  constantly immigrated and the marriage between peoples of arab/iranian/turkish was taking place more commonly. It's so pointless that maybe if you actually knew the origins of each of his parents and grandparents and their grandparents , you might find out that many of them were from different origins. So, since it's rather impossible to scientifically break his genes down and find out which nationality his blood is from by exact percentage, the way to know a person's origins is to see were he was born and to which culture/language he adapted to with former being more significant.

Now by looking at where he was born (and even in this case a generation before him was born) he's an Iranian.





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