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Did Charlemagne really live?

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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Did Charlemagne really live?
    Posted: 07-Apr-2005 at 17:43
Whilst checking some dates on Charlemagne, I came across this wonderful piece of nonsense.
You might have discussed the theory of New Chronology before, but here is our very own teutonic version.

Heribert Illig (born 1947 in Vohenstrau, Germany) is a German historian and the leading proponent of the so-called "phantom time hypothesis" which asserts that the Dark Ages did not exist and that the approximately 300 years between 614 and 911 are an invention. This means that our world is not living in the early 21st century, but the early 18th century. Thus the year 2000 was actually the year 1703 in Illig's hypothesis.
The basis of Illig's claims is the paucity of archaeological evidence that can be securely dated to this period; perceived inadequacies of radiometric and dendrochronological methods of dating this period, and the over-reliance of medieval historians on written sources. One consequence of Illig's hypothesis is that Charlemagne never existed but is a fictional character.
From Wikipedia


300 years missing, anybody seen them?
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2005 at 18:00
Its buried along with Saxon terasure in England.
Their original website is here, certainly intresting, if not a little odd.
Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2005 at 18:21
I think we've had a discussion on New Chornology here before.

You simply can't pick apart specific time periods like that. The Muslims had accounts of Dark Age europe, as did the Eastern Romans.
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2005 at 18:24
Not to mention there is archeological evidence.

But i think Fomenko has things to say on Arabic and Eastern Roman stuff too, but yet his work is almost purely mathematical, its like he has just dismissed out of hand the existing understanding, and replaced it with one he craeted with some nifty mathematical formulars.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2005 at 13:22
Charlemagne existed: the Basque militias beat his cavalry at Orreaga (Roncesvaux) and even the exact day is well known: August-15-778 at sunset.

Anyhow, a friend of mine (who has only a very limited interest in history) suggested for some time that all the past was an invention. Not just Charlemagne but Napoleon or even Hitler never existed. Anything before 1968 was, following his reasoning, a pure invention as we weren't there to witness it.
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2005 at 14:32
Originally posted by Maju

Anyhow, a friend of mine (who has only a very limited interest in history) suggested for some time that all the past was an invention. Not just Charlemagne but Napoleon or even Hitler never existed. Anything before 1968 was, following his reasoning, a pure invention as
we weren't there to witness it.


Now there's and interesting theory. Imagine, in a few decades this friend of yours won't ever have existed.

As for the German psuedo-scientist there, he either has a great sense of humour or is just plain nutters.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 13:28
I read some theory like that on some other forum, too. Definetly nonesense. Three hundred years is kind of hard to just "fake." No to mention that there are corressponding historical sources outside of Western Europe that can be used to back up a lot of international events, such as the battle of Tours, sources during the invasion of Spain.
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  Quote Lord Ranulf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 14:03
Komnenos Whilst checking some dates on Charlemagne, I came across this wonderful piece of nonsense.
You might have discussed the theory of New Chronology before, but here is our very own teutonic version.

Heribert Illig (born 1947 in Vohenstrau, Germany) is a German historian and the leading proponent of the so-called "phantom time hypothesis" which asserts that the Dark Ages did not exist and that the approximately 300 years between 614 and 911 are an invention. This means that our world is not living in the early 21st century, but the early 18th century. Thus the year 2000 was actually the year 1703 in Illig's hypothesis.
The basis of Illig's claims is the paucity of archaeological evidence that can be securely dated to this period; perceived inadequacies of radiometric and dendrochronological methods of dating this period, and the over-reliance of medieval historians on written sources. One consequence of Illig's hypothesis is that Charlemagne never existed but is a fictional character.
From Wikipedia....
 
 
 
 Lord Ranulf: delightful theory. ludicrous of course, imo, but delightful nontheless. For if i were suddenly to believe it, i'd have to throw out all my references by Odo of Metz and Einhard as  fraudLOL
 
 

from Einhard's Life of Charlemagne

The Emperor was strong and well built. He was tall in stature, but not excessively so, for his height was just seven times the length of his own feet. The top of his head was round, and his eyes were piercing and unusually large. His nose was slightly longer than normal, he had a fine head of white hair and his expression was gay and good-humored

As a result, whether he was seated or standing, he always appeared masterful and dignified. His neck was short and rather thick, and his stomach a trifle too heavy, but the proportions of the rest of his body prevented one from noticing these blemishes. His step was firm and he was manly in all his movements. He spoke distinctly, but his voice was thin for a man of his physique. His health was good, except that he suffered from frequent attacks of fever during the last four years of his life, and towards the end he was lame in one foot. Even then he continued to do exactly as he wished, instead of following the advice of his doctors, whom he came positively to dislike after they advised him to stop eating the roast meat to which he was accustomed and to live on stewed dishes.

He spent much of his time on horseback and out hunting, which came naturally to him, for it would be difficult to find another race on earth who could equal the Franks in this activity. He took delight in steam-baths at the thermal springs, and loved to exercise himself in the water whenever he could. He was an extremely strong swimmer and in this sport no one could surpass him. It was for this reason that he built his palace at Aachen and remained continuously in residence there during the last years of his life and indeed until the moment of his death. He would invite not only his sons to bathe with him, but his nobles and friends as well, and occasionally even a crowd of his attendants and bodyguards, so that sometimes a hundred men or more would be in the water together.

He wore the national dress of the Franks. Next to his skin he had a linen shirt and linen drawers; and then long hose and a tunic edged with silk. He wore shoes on his feet and bands of cloth wound round his legs. In winter he protected his chest and shoulders with a jerkin made of otter skins or ermine. He wrapped himself in a blue cloak and always had a sword strapped to his side, with a hilt and belt of gold or silver. Sometimes he would use a jeweled sword, but this was only on great feast days or when ambassadors came from foreign peoples. He hated the clothes of other countries, no matter how becoming they might be, and he would never consent to wear them. The only exception to this was one day in Rome when Pope Hadrian entreated him to put on a long tunic and a Greek mantle, and to wear shoes made in the Roman fashion; and then a second time, when Leo, Hadrian's successor, persuaded him to do the same thing. On feast days he walked in procession in a suit of cloth of gold, with jeweled shoes, his cloak fastened with a golden ~ brooch and with a crown of gold and precious stones on his head. On ordinary days his dress differed hardly at all from that of the common people.

---And it was so well written too.TongueBig%20smile


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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 15:42

Charlemagne did live, of course. But I like the idea, even though it's odd.

     
   
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 20:05
So in the year 613 the Byzantine and Sassanid Empires stretched from India to the Atlantic, and the very next year in 614 virtually the whole of that territory was under the rule of Islam. Must've been one very turbulent year indeed!
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 21:35
Originally posted by Constantine XI

So in the year 613 the Byzantine and Sassanid Empires stretched from India to the Atlantic, and the very next year in 614 virtually the whole of that territory was under the rule of Islam. Must've been one very turbulent year indeed!
 
No. That was far more later. Mohammed was still in Mecca in 614, hasn't even emigrated to Medina yet to be the leader of the new Islamic state.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 21:53
Originally posted by Kapikulu

Originally posted by Constantine XI

So in the year 613 the Byzantine and Sassanid Empires stretched from India to the Atlantic, and the very next year in 614 virtually the whole of that territory was under the rule of Islam. Must've been one very turbulent year indeed!
 
No. That was far more later. Mohammed was still in Mecca in 614, hasn't even emigrated to Medina yet to be the leader of the new Islamic state.


Kapikulu, I was joking around. If you read Komnenos' original post, Fomenko claims the period 614-911 is an invention. If that were true, one year you would have Byzantium and Sassanid Persia, and the very next you would have a small Byzantium and a massive Islamic Caliphate instead.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 00:24
Originally posted by Constantine XI

Originally posted by Kapikulu

Originally posted by Constantine XI

So in the year 613 the Byzantine and Sassanid Empires stretched from India to the Atlantic, and the very next year in 614 virtually the whole of that territory was under the rule of Islam. Must've been one very turbulent year indeed!
 
No. That was far more later. Mohammed was still in Mecca in 614, hasn't even emigrated to Medina yet to be the leader of the new Islamic state.


Kapikulu, I was joking around. If you read Komnenos' original post, Fomenko claims the period 614-911 is an invention. If that were true, one year you would have Byzantium and Sassanid Persia, and the very next you would have a small Byzantium and a massive Islamic Caliphate instead.
 
The claim is propesterous indeed, I just am unable to grasp how Fomenko would claim this true.
 
 
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 10:13
Wonderful, another thread about Fomenko dancing.Tongue  Where's onkel wawa? Big%20smile
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 14:03
Originally posted by Constantine XI


Kapikulu, I was joking around. If you read Komnenos' original post, Fomenko claims the period 614-911 is an invention. If that were true, one year you would have Byzantium and Sassanid Persia, and the very next you would have a small Byzantium and a massive Islamic Caliphate instead.
 
AhEmbarrassedLOL
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 19:02
Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Constantine XI

Originally posted by Kapikulu

Originally posted by Constantine XI

So in the year 613 the Byzantine and Sassanid Empires stretched from India to the Atlantic, and the very next year in 614 virtually the whole of that territory was under the rule of Islam. Must've been one very turbulent year indeed!
 
No. That was far more later. Mohammed was still in Mecca in 614, hasn't even emigrated to Medina yet to be the leader of the new Islamic state.


Kapikulu, I was joking around. If you read Komnenos' original post, Fomenko claims the period 614-911 is an invention. If that were true, one year you would have Byzantium and Sassanid Persia, and the very next you would have a small Byzantium and a massive Islamic Caliphate instead.
 
The claim is propesterous indeed, I just am unable to grasp how Fomenko would claim this true.
 
 
 
 
He supposedly used statistics to prove this out.  I think he left out telling anyone about the dart board and the eight ball with the little window in the bottom.Big%20smile
 
 
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  Quote Balain d Ibelin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 04:29

Charlemagne really LIVED.

Illig's Hipothesis was a very very very  real example of Extreme STUPIDITY of History.

Then, IF, you want to know about Charlemagne, let me tell you.
 
Charlemagne was the King of the Franks, reigning for 40 Years from 768-808 (?). He was ruling the Country firstly with his brother Carloman. But after Carloman died, Charlemagne ruled the Country of the Franks, he was a good General, statesman, and also Loyal to his Religion (Catholic).
 
Charlemagne fame of his "Art of War" Excellency was heard by the Pope and the Pope invited him to go to Italy to led Frankish army for a special Mission, which is, Clearing Italy from the Lombards.
 
The Lombards are barbarian tribes from Northern Europe which migrated to Germany at about 4th Century. After the Goths sacked Rome, the Lombards were encouraged to attack the former West Roman Empire territories, after the Goths continued Sackings and raidings and left Italy at about Emperor Justinian's late reign, the Lombards started to attacked Italy, some Missionaries of the Byzantines finally could Convert the Lombards from the Germanic Paganism to Orthodox Christianity, but that, didn't halt the Lombards advance.Actually, most of Lombard territory had been cleared during Peppin III the Short's reign, but the Lombards, after Peppin's death, the Lombards started to rebelled again and tried aggain to Conquer Italy, clearing Italy from this People, was, Charlemagne 1st Quest as the King of the Franks.
 
However, although for centuries the Lombards were nearly unstoppable, Charlemagne handled this problem easily although blood spoiled very much.
 
After that quest, Charlemagne fought the Pagan Saxons, actually many of the Saxons migrated to England after the Anglo-Saxon invasion. But, there was still many Paganic Saxons living at Germany, Charlemagne sent an emissary to offer the Germania Saxons 2 Offerings, which are:
     1. Became Christians & handing the Germania Saxon region to the Franks, with life, property, and family ensured safe for the Saxons (Wouldn't be taken by the Franks)
     2. Fight the Franks and may be defeated with great loss of life and Property.
 
 
The Saxons chose to fought, the Franks attacked the Saxons, for years, they weren't success for the Franks, but, with Charlemagne's guidance, finally the Saxons were defeated, and Bavaria, Friesland, and Sachsen Areas were taken. But still however, the Saxons rebelled, but this time it was handled easily and the Germania Saxons were banished. (*Note* From the Time when Charlemagne declared the offerings to until the Last Saxon rebellions were surpressed, it needed time 30 years)
 
After it, Charlemagne crushed the Nomadic Avar tribes very easily and controlled Austrasia (Austria and Alps).
 
Then, Charlemagne sent an army to invade the Moslem Spain, capturing the Basque region and Barcelona, but, before getting invading Andalusia, the Franks were halted by the Moslems, on the way back to France, they were attacked at Roncesvalles by the Local Basque riders and, one of Charlemagne friends, Count Roland, was killed. This tragedy inspired a Troubadour to sang it as the Song of Roland poem.
 
When not in war, Charlemagne managed and advanced Finance and Education of his people, he made Monks, Missionary and even Jews as his Ministers.
But, Charlemagne was also a bit strange at 2 Things he declared and did, which were:
          1. He declared to destroy and sack his own Fief (Dukes and COunts, etc.) Castles as he was very afraid if they betrayed him and rebelled against him
          2.He was too Loved his daughters, even, he won't had a Dinner without them, and didn't allowed them to married, except one daughter.Maybe, he tought that no one is perfect enough to be his daughter's husband.
 
Beside of his strangenesses and His allowance to the Jews, the Pope liked Charlemagne!! at Christmas 800 AD He was crowned Holy Roman Emperor.
 
To unite his Frankish-German HRE with the Byzantines, he sent a letter to Queen Irene, the Iconodulism (Opposite of Iconoclasm) founder to marry her and united the 2 Empires to became a new Roman Empire, but, the Byzantines refused it. Angry with that reply, Charlemagne made an Alliance against the Byzantines with the Abbasyids and also trade agreement with the Abbasyid Caliph.
 
Soon after that, Charlemagne died and his brilliant career comes to an end.
 
 
 
Charlemagne name came in many name
        Carolus Magnus       in  Latin
        Karl der Grosse        in  German
        Charlemagne           in  Old French
        Karl                          in Old German
        Charles Magne        in  French
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 00:25
Originally posted by Balain d Ibelin

 
 
Charlemagne name came in many name
        Carolus Magnus       in  Latin
        Karl der Grosse        in  German
        Charlemagne           in  Old French
        Karl                          in Old German
        Charles Magne        in  French
  
 
 
Adding Dutch : Karel de Grote
 
Should be there. The Salian Franks expanded from south Netherlands and Flanders region so they would also rule what's now France and Germany .  Also today the  Dutch / Flemish languages  are the modern variants of Old Frankish  ( Old Frankish> old west low Franconian / Old Dutch  > middle Dutch > Dutch).
 
Ofcourse he lived. He is buried at Aachen , 2 miles from the modern Dutch border.


Edited by Sander - 28-Sep-2007 at 00:37
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 18:45
The low quantity of archaeological discoveries from this period I think is due to a socio-economical phenomenon, the fall of the ancient system based of slavery which lead to a dizintegration of some communities and the change of the way of life and of the production.

Even the feudalism was already present in some aspects, the ancient world, which was a social and spiritual dimension, vanished and the disparition was followed by a rearangement of the society's systems.

Is possible that in this period a demographic regression to have manifested but the lack of archaeological evidences doesn't indispensably means that, it could be due to the changement of the means of production.

Edited by Menumorut - 28-Sep-2007 at 18:56
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 19:51
Well at one time this theory became quite popular among Hungarian nationalists. (Since it supports the Hun - Hungarian identification.) Illig even wrote a sequel for Hungarian market.
(Heribert Illig & Klaus Weissberger: Probleme der ungarischer Frhgeschichte)
 
The most funny thing that while nationalists loved Illigs book, they seemingly forget that this theory also support the daco-roman continuity theory the nightmare of a Hungarian nationalist. LOL
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