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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Education for Liberty and Justice
    Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 17:21
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba


How many successful theocracies have there been? Christian theocracies failed, and Islamic theocracies are failing.

 
Since Poland defeated The Teutonic Order there is surelly one christian theocracy less, Napoleon also took Malta and banished the knights of Saint John but for example Vatican is still in good shape..... Do you know any other christian theocracies than those 3?


Edited by Mosquito - 20-Jul-2010 at 17:33
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 17:23
Carol, for some reason wrote the following words;

"For the majority of people the church was their source of education and their source of a social life.
Remember, they didn't have TV and computers, and were lucky to have a computer.   For many their only knowledge of the world outside of their home town was a Sears and Robocks catalog, and may be a rare traveling sells man.   Yet we prospered very well."

Just what in the heck did you mean in the above paragraph? Just what period of your past did not have "TV and computers?" Are you over age 60? and you also wrote of the "Sears and Roebuck catalog!"

Were you raised in the 1930's or early 40's?

Wow!
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 17:31
Carol, above, it seems casually wrote the following;

"Wait a minute, this information is incomplete. True Christianity was as opposed to capitalism as Islam, and did hold Christian Europe in poverty, as have some Muslim countries. However, Jews were experts at banking and earning a buck."

"Christianity was against capitalism?" Just where and how do you derive this statement from the Bible?

"Christianity held Christian Europe in poverty?" My God, just where did you learn your history? The church wanted everyone in poverty? Please get real?

The Chruch was as interested in getting rich as anyone or anything else! In some ways they were the first "robber barons", etc.!
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 17:48
Originally posted by Mosquito

 
Since Poland defeated The Teutonic Order there is surelly one christian theocracy less, Napoleon also took Malta and banished the knights of Saint John but for example Vatican is still in good shape..... Do you know any other christian theocracies than those 3?


What I'm referring to is the time when Christianity dominated the politics and social life of European nations. The first truly secular nation-state was probably France during the French Revolution, if I'm correct.

I believe that there is a connection between the rise of secularism and the rise of European prosperity.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 20-Jul-2010 at 17:49
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 17:55
Then what caused American prosperity?

You cannot call the period of 1900 to 1960 a period of American secularism?

Can you?
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 17:56
Originally posted by opuslola

Then what caused American prosperity?

You cannot call the period of 1900 to 1960 a period of American secularism?

Can you?


Yes you can, secularism was growing. Religion gets in the way of progress, history has taught us this, lets never make the mistake of giving religion to much credit or too much power ever again.
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 17:58
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Originally posted by Mosquito

 
Since Poland defeated The Teutonic Order there is surelly one christian theocracy less, Napoleon also took Malta and banished the knights of Saint John but for example Vatican is still in good shape..... Do you know any other christian theocracies than those 3?


What I'm referring to is the time when Christianity dominated the politics and social life of European nations. The first truly secular nation-state was probably France during the French Revolution, if I'm correct.

I believe that there is a connection between the rise of secularism and the rise of European prosperity.
 
 
Not really. There were christian states where being rich was a sign of being good christian eg: Holland.
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 18:02
the exceptions dont make the rule, do they? I dont know enough about Hollands history to respond, so I'll take your word for it.
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 18:05
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

the exceptions dont make the rule, do they? I dont know enough about Hollands history to respond, so I'll take your word for it.
 
Christianity also gave the Spanish and Portugese good excuse to get rich by robbing non christian inhabitants of America
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 18:06
If you will take mosquito's word for then take mine also! Religion and revivalism literally ruled America during this period!

Think about it again?
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 18:11
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

the exceptions dont make the rule, do they? I dont know enough about Hollands history to respond, so I'll take your word for it.
 
Christianity also gave the Spanish and Portugese good excuse to get rich by robbing non christian inhabitants of America


So thats why we should have more religion in society? Not a compelling argument...

@Opuslola, I do know enough about American history to not have to take your word for it. Was the US as secular back then as it is today? Absolutely not, but secularism was growing.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 20-Jul-2010 at 18:12
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 18:13
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba


I believe that there is a connection between the rise of secularism and the rise of European prosperity.
 
I believe that there is a connection between the colonialism and the rise of European prosperity.
I also belive that there is a connection between the fall of feudalism in result of getting rich by bourgoise  - in result of colonialism and the rise of European prosperity. Religion had nothing to do with it.

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 18:15
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba


So thats why we should have more religion in society? Not a compelling argument...
 
 
I did never say that we should have more religion in the society.. All Im saying is that religion or its lack in the society had nothing to do with prosperity.
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 18:27
good points.
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2010 at 04:37
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

I would argue that religion has been the root of evil, not secularism.
 
Wrong. Man is the root of all evil, religion, secularism, politcial ideology, economic ideology etc are just the excuse to conduct evil.
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2010 at 04:41
Mosquito is also correct in highightind the United Dutch Provinces as an example of economic porsperity and religion being able to coexist. 16th to the early 18th Century, which had merely supplanted Portuguese prosperity and which later was then supplanted by British. Religion and economic prosperity are not mutualy exclusive.
 
European banking systems, letters of credit and bills of exchange, all come to the fore from the 13th Century onwards. A most religious time after all.
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2010 at 08:56
Originally posted by DreamWeaver

 
Wrong. Man is the root of all evil, religion, secularism, politcial ideology, economic ideology etc are just the excuse to conduct evil.


Clap
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2010 at 09:07
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba


Originally posted by DreamWeaver

 

Wrong. Man is the root of all evil, religion, secularism, politcial ideology, economic ideology etc are just the excuse to conduct evil.
Clap


Yes it seems both the Devil and God, exist within the detail!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_is_in_the_details
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  Quote Airhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2010 at 11:53
How do I say this delicately?   You show awareness of many gods, so it is not logical to argue the notion of God comes from the Hebrews.  The God of Moses is one of many concepts of god.   The God of Moses is not so different from Zeus, a humanized god.  The God of Moses is a jealous, fearsome, revengeful God, okay?  Can't get much more human than that.  He rules by whim, punishing and pleasing people depending on if they please him or not.  Really, can't get any more human that.
 
God is a different concept altogether from gods or even god.  The Bible speaks of gods as well.  God is the root of monotheism, not gods, gods are false idols and the result of immoral paganism.  God only contains human attributes, because it is humans that are trying to describe Him.  Obviously, human minds are insignificant compared to God.  Any human that thinks they understand reality better than God is arrogant and full of themselves.  They only seek to glorify themselves (selfishness) rather than glorify God Almighty.  Jesus Christ came and set the record straight.  The teachings of Jesus are the true heart of Christianity.
 
I much prefer the notion of God that is the force that organizes the universe.   I prefer Cicero's understanding of God.  If we do wrong bad, the consequence will be bad.  If we do good, the consequence will be good.  What makes something right or wrong is the consequence.   No prayers, burning of candles, or animal sacrifices will change the consequences of what we put into motion.   Another way to look at this is by asking the questions the Greek philosophers asked.  That would go something like this, is something good or bad, because the gods say it is good or bad, or is do the gods say something is good or bad, because it is good or bad?   Questions like this is how they evolved from believing in many gods, to believing in one force that organizes the universe, or one God.  Of course along with this line of thinking is math.  It is unfortunate the writers of the bible did not first study math and the areas of study identified by Aristotle, before they set out to write of "God's truth".
 
I see.  I would much prefer to never experience pain.  I would much prefer if my children always took my advice.  Reality has little to do about "what we would prefer".  This is why it is dangerous for individuals to set themselves up as an authority.  Our knowledge is so limited.  People think they see the "big picture", but they only see a tiny sliver, that is a tiny aspect of all of reality.  This is why we need to answer to God.  Not answer to yourself.  God does see the big picture, we never can.  The result of this is faith.
 
At least 5 biblical stories are translations of Sumerian stories.  Christianity is full of Hellenistic, Persian and Egyptian concepts.   I would rush to a bible story class that included knowledge of Hellenism, Persian and Egyptian theology.   I am not interested in bible studies limited to the study of the bible, and the misinformation that this involves.
 
You need the guidance of the Holy Spirit to truely understand the Bible.  Human selfishness has inhibited individuals from being open to the Word of God. 
 
Please, understand, I can not get away with any wrong.  No one can.   Understanding this brings us to the highest morality.   If I do wrong, the consequences will be bad.  That is why it is the wrong thing to do.  To avoid doing wrong, I must train my conscience for the best possible moral judgement.   That was the intent of Socrates' questions, but he too veered too far from math and science.  Our education was about making good moral judgment and we could do this without the bible, however, not without some concept the laws of the universe, God.   It means if you pick up a gun and shoot someone, killing this person, saying prayers, burning candles, sacrificing animals isn't going to undo what you did.   No savior is going to jump up and make everything right.  No god is going to violate the laws of the universe, no matter how much He might likes you, or dislikes you.   That is what the Greeks determined when they gave up worshiping many gods.   From there, it was only a question of who right to define God.
 
Your information is incomplete Carol.  If you set yourself up as an authority, it is impossible to make the best moral judgement, since you must rely on your fallible perception and finite mind.  You can't make the best moral judgement without the guidance of God.  People who believe in God often fail at grasping God's guidance because deep down they are motivated by selfish intentions, and they allow these intentions to guide them.  The Greeks only gave up worshiping gods when they converted to Christianity.  Why would you want to model your behavior off of a failed society?
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  Quote Airhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2010 at 12:34

Doesn't this make God a jealous and petty God?

No.  God doesn't want mindless slaves.  He wants willful humility.  You can't force humility.  You can't force someone to accept help.
 
Besides your information is incomplete.  We replaced our liberal education with education for technology for military and industrial purpose.  We stopped transmitting our culture and left moral training to the church, making a big mess of things!  This includes Christians saying, "oh, then you don't have God and morals".   Every nation must have moral citizens and their holy books are not the only source of morality.   When we speak as though only those who believe as we do have God and morals, we destroy democracy!   These Christians have become our worst problem.  When I say we must return to education for good moral judgment, they get defensive and say they don't want anyone teaching their children morals.  This is a very poor understanding of God and morals.
 
It is not Christians that are the problem, it is human nature that is the problem. 
 
 A moral is a matter of cause and effect.  We would read our children moral stories, such as "The Little Red Hen" and ask, "What is the moral of that story?".  The moral of "The Little Red Hen" story is, no one would help her make bread so she didn't share it.   We used the such literature and the classics and hero stories to teach good moral judgment.   Greek mythology gives us some of the very best moral stories, and are excellent at creating a moral and just society, and at transitioning to youth to adulthood.  But with education for technology, we did as the Germans did, leaving moral education to the church, destroyed our national heroes, and praising efficiency,  with huge social and political ramifications!
 
No.  Greek mythology teaches you to kill your father, sleep with your mom, and to kill yourself when times are tough.  It was secular society that took morality from education, yet you praise secular society.
 
We began preparing our young for a technological society with unknown values, thus manifesting an amoral society, which leads to anarchy and in turn anarchy leads to authority over the people.
We are destroying our democracy, and that is why I write.  Germany was the seat of the Holy Roman Empire, and the seat of the Protestant Reformation, and it was not lack of Christianity that made Germany our world war enemy.   Christianity without education for democracy is not a good thing.   
 
Christians provide more charity than anybody else in the entier world.  Many of the hospitals are owned and operated by the Church.  Christianity has also provided a world wide cohesive bond for society and we remain the largest religion in the history of the world.  Humans are not perfect and humans often fail.  This is ok if we have a humble heart and honestly seek to do better.  Jesus knows our hearts better than we do.  If people actually followed the teachings of Jesus (Christians included), the world would be a much better place.
 
 
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