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    Posted: 17-Jul-2010 at 08:26
1816. "Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day . . . . I believe it [human condition] susceptible of much improvement, and most of all, in matters of government and religion; and that the diffusion of knowledge among the people is to be the instrument by which it is effected." (to Dupont de Nemours, 24 April) Thomas Jefferson.


Education then, beyond all other devices of human origin, is the great equalizer of the conditions of men, the balance-wheel of the social machinery. 
Horace Mann

I have started this thread in Philosophy and Theology thread, because education for liberty and justice is a blend of religion and rational coming from philosophy.   In the US the federal government did not mandate communities have free public schools, until 1840.  This action was taken because the flood of immigrants and economic problems, had caused social unrest.  The primary purpose of public education was to Americanize the immigrants and transmit a culture essential to liberty and justice.  We replaced this education with education for technology for military and industrial purpose in 1958, and left moral training to the church.  This has been devastating to our liberty and justice, and it is why write.  Since 1958 we have prepared our young for a technological society with unknown values.   The social ramifications are both good and bad.

Christianity without education for liberty and justice is not the same as Christianity with education for liberty and justice.  Christianity supports autocracy, the enemy of democracy.  Until literacy in Greek and Roman classics, no one saw the principles of democracy in the bible.  The bible supports our liberty and justice, only when people are educated to see this in the bible.   The bible can just as easily be used to support slavery.    Martin Luther, the man we credit with starting the Protestant Reformation Movement, believed the witch hunts were necessary.  Because of the teachings of the bible, people believed illness was caused by God to punish people, or by demons, and this seriously impeded the progress of science and use of sanitation.   Without literacy in Greek and Roman classics, Christianity would have never manifested a democracy such as we enjoy in the United States and elsewhere.   The same is so for Islam and Muslims.  Another religious branch of Judaism that is divided by the acceptance or rejection for the classics.  

It can be argued that religion has caused more harm than good.   It is also argued secularism without religion is at the core of our evil evils.  You are invited to state your arguments.  
 
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Dear Carol,

Then just how would you either defend or attack this post;

http://webmail.aol.com/32213-111/aol-1/en-us/Suite.aspx

Seems simple enough to me!

Regards,

You might notice that my state, is supposedly in the less than 2% colour, but I would really doubt these stats, since I do live here!
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Posts: 19 		  Quote Airhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 13:14
Good post Carol!  The Bible is at the root of real democracy.  This is why we need Jesus in the schools.  Education without learning the right way to be moral creates evil atheists like Hitler, Mao, and Stalin.  This is why we have seen the USA become more dangerous as we have turned our backs on Jesus.
 
Just look at the young people these days.  Atheism is becoming popular, because people like sin, and don't want to take the time to understand that Jesus is calling out to them.  This is why traditional values are so important.  We can't let go of our traditional values, even though secular society tells us to.  Divorce is sky rocketing, because we let go of our traditional values, and say that it is ok for woman to be on their own, but Jesus says that a healthy home has the man as the leader, and mother as the caregiver.  Both positions are needed, and they compliment eachother so well.
 
Gays are becoming accepted in society, but what about the children?  Children need a mother and father who are strong with Jesus.  There is no way around that.  Not with science, not with logics.  You can't rationalize away the importance of Jesus and education for both liberty and justice.
 
 
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Posts: 19 		  Quote Airhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 14:56
Hi Carol.  I tried to reply to your message, but the computer said "access denied".  I am not sure why that is.
 
I do not understand why you think it was necessary to edit the Holy Bible.  I don't think we can pick and chose what to accept as God's Holy Word.  Thomas Jefferson was into that new age deist stuff.  If the Bible is not God's Holy Word, then why believe some of it, and not all of it?  What is the "logic" in that?
 
 


Edited by Airhead - 19-Jul-2010 at 14:56
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Ouch ouch, Airhead, I am sure you are very nice person, and I hate to disagree with nice people, but my heaven's, religion in school is not a good thing.  That is different from mentioning God.  Atheist will not agree with me, but "God" is not religion until we attempt to define God.   For me God is the X factor and it is very important that we work with this X factor.  Really bad things happen when humans think they are supreme.   I believe it is hugely important that we answer to God, who is above us all, rather than holding any human is supreme or the final authority. Atheist are being foolish when they do not tolerate any concept of God at all.

However, when we start saying we must bring children to Jesus, that is getting into religion and very bad things happen when we do this.   One of the things that  made the US so much better than some countries, is separation of church and state.  Remember when it is was thought bad manners to talk about religion?  Remember when people kept religious beliefs private?  My relationship with God is private and personal.  It is more a matter of the heart than intellect.

Public education is about developing the intellect, and preparing children for citizenship.  It does this differently than religion does this.   It was about educating for good moral judgment and citizenship, and we were able to do this while maintaining separation of church and state.  I think this is very important.   

Why accept some of the bible and not all of it?  Because well educated and rational people, can not believe some of the bible stories should be interpreted literally.  The story of Adam and Eve is not science.  Snakes do not talk.  God doesn't walk in gardens with people.   There was no reporter there at the time, witnessing and recording what happened.  The story of Adam and Eve is just a story, comparable with other stories at the time.  Actually, the Greek story of Pandora and the Box makes more sense than Adam and Eve.   If we interpret these stories abstractly, there isn't a problem with them.  However, when we interpret them literally, there is a big a problem with them. 
   
The story of Jesus is almost identical to the story about Horus, the son of Isis.   We have no more reason to believe the biblical account of the story is more God's truth than the Egyptian account.    However, both accounts created cultures that have been humane and successful.   Humans told stories like these since they sat around camp fires.  The Sumerians recorded their stories on clay tablets, and it appears Hebrews translated them, changing the story a little in the process of translation, so the story of many gods became the story of one God.   

Mythology teaches us how to be good citizens.   The mythology of people around the world isn't that different, because it all serves the same purpose.  We can think of this as God speaking to everyone, and each hearing God a little differently, because their environments and cultures were different.  But this little difference shouldn't matter to us so much.  We should be looking for God's truth in everything.  When it was our goal to educate for good moral judgment and good citizenship, we used mythology from the ancients and from around the world.    

The answer to your question is, the reasoning of the bible is good for creating a good culture and it is beneficial to good government,  although its stories are not scientifically correct.   

The bible says over and over again, we should not be too sure of what we think we know.  Surely this means we should not be clinging to a book saying we know God's truth.   Cultures have their own holy books and we have no reason for believing one culture's holy book is more God's truth than another culture's holy book.    If we foolishly insist our book is God's truth, than surely those with science will say, how can this possibly be God's truth when it is so clearly scientifically wrong.
It absolutely is not possible for snakes to talk, okay?   If we try to force something like talking snakes on everyone,  and insist they believe a snake talked to Eve, or they don't have God and morals, we turn people away and ruin any good we can accomplish.   


Edited by Carol - 19-Jul-2010 at 17:14
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The problem with your arguement is that you can't have god without having religion.  God is religion, following any of his teachings is following a religion.  But I do agree that what is missing from society these days is a good dose of religious morals.  Athiests say that there is no god, therefore there is only our own moral compass to obey.  The problem with that is that we are basically animals, desended from animals, and subject to animal instinct.  These instincts will affect our moral compass.  The comandments, will not socially cool, are still the best set of rules for living anyone has ever seen.  They are the basis of all western law, and as such should be seen as the cornerstone of our society.  Not something to be discarded when no longer convienient.
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Thank you for your reply.  However, for the life of me, I can not understand why we can use the word God without religious dogma.  Cicero used the word God without religious dogma.  Considering he was a Roman statesman and Rome had many gods, non of them being the god of which Cicero spoke.  The God of which Cicero spoke was the organizing force of the universe, and that is known through a study of science, not religious dogma.  This seriously needs to be understood, if we are to a good understanding of democracy, which is a way of life, a culture.  This way of life includes political concerns and government, but that is only a part of this way of life.  

The important difference between the democratic way of life and religion, is a matter of authority.
The Rabbi is the Jewish authority.  The Pope is the Catholic authority.  The bible is the Christian authority and the Muslims are equally divided on this issue of authority.  But those who understand democracy, understand authority differently.  Reason, is the controlling force of the universe.  That is God, but there is no holy book for this God.  There is only nature.   Each one of us can study nature and determine what is true.  Then we come together and compare notes, and this expands our minds.  All along we know this is humans trying to know truth, and trying to figure out the best way to live together.  We do not fancy that we know God's truth, because we know we can only human truths.  We do not have dogma, but constant search truth.   

It is this understanding that brings us to self government, which is rule by reason, not rule by what someone believes a God commanded.   This is purely a matter of reason and ideas of what is believable.  Some of us absolutely can not believe a God walked in a Garden with people, nor presented himself as a burning bush, nor does he send angels.  I am sorry, we just can not believe this stuff.  However, we can agree there are patterns of cause and effect, and we can discover them, and because we have reason, we can govern ourselves with reason.   

Athena, the patron goddess of Athens, taught men to rule themselves.  No Greek gods commanded humans to do anything.   Each Greek god and goddess is a concept, and we would do well to know these concepts.   With these concepts we have wisdom.  With religion you have superstition and humans dependent on someone to rule them.   And I do care which you have, neither are any good, unless they are learned.   The most important thing for cooperative human existence is culture.  Religious of not, we are more or less obedient to our cultures.   

Yes, we can have God without religion.   It is culture that curbs our animal instincts, regardless of it that culture is based on religion or a belief in human rational.    However, we must stop at believing in human rational.  We must have God above all, so we never get too sure ourselves, nor give any human too much authority for a human to have.   Neither the Rabbi, Pope or holy book is the beginning and end of authority.   It is joint human conscience realizing the truths of universe, ever evolving and increasing awesome.    
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Posts: 19 		  Quote Airhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 10:06

I don't see how you can answer to God if you have defined yourself as an authority.  If you make everyone an authority, you have mob rule.  The logical conclusion of this line of thinking is socialism.  People still need a shepard, even if they think they do not.  They still need guidance, and purpose, even if they invented their own.

I don't see how you can say that you cherrish traditional values, when you cast so many aside like a tool that no longer serves it's purpose.  Do you not respect traditions?
 
The Bible was written by many people in many times, and much of the Bible is allegory.  That is, a true story, from a certain perspective, according to their understandings at the time.  This doesn't make the stories untrue, nor unuseful.  If you believe that God exists, how do you know this with reason?  There is no sign in the sky that says: "I'm God, here I am, now use reason to understand me."  There is no empirical evidence for God other than religious texts, and the experiences of religious people.  So denigrating parts of tradition, while clinging to bits you like would be called cherry picking, and seems illogical.  You can't have it both ways.
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 10:33
Me thinks "Airhead" is misnamed! Three very good posts!

I shall, I think sit right here on the fence, and state catagorically that I "feel strongly both ways!"

Regards to all, (and God bless!)
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Thank you dear.
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Airhead,  We all like agreement and I hope you are not too disappointed that we appear to have a disagreement.  Might we explore this possible difference?  What traditions do you think I do not respect?  

It would not be family values/traditions where we disagree, because those are close to universal.  A few cultures have a different family order than our mother, father and children.  In at least one case the mother's brother holds the position of the father, because all can be sure of who the mother's brother is, but may not be sure of who the children's father is.  It is difficult to convert these people to Christianity because a Father in Heaven doesn't make sense to them.  

Some cultures are matriarchies and others are patriarchies, but these in general have a family unite of mother, father and children.    There is an African tribe unfamiliar with Christianity that believes God causes termites to invade a village if someone is committing adultery.   I found this quite fascinating that such different people would have such similar family values.   The Mayans thought the family unite was so important, that if a man did not choose his own wife soon enough, one was chosen for him.    China is still strongly influenced by Confucius, and he taught a strong nation depends on strong families, just as we taught a strong democratic Republic, depends on strong families.      

The Romans had very strong family values, long before Christianity and for sure Athens had very strong family values.  We know the Greek gods and goddesses were thought to be related as family.  Athens valued the gods and family, but Sparta did not.  There is a huge political difference between these two, that is the main reason I stress the importance of family values.  Sparta could have been the first military/socialist state.  That is everything bad we mean, when we speak of socialism as an evil.  I would be so offended if you associated me with Sparta, rather than Athens.  My favored name for these forums is Athena, because she was Athens patron goddess of Liberty, Justice and Defense.  My traditional values are older than Christianity, which is Hellenized Judaism.  Unfortunately, someone else is using the name Athena.   

I fortunately have a copy of what might be the first book ever written on the history of the US.  The book begins with Thomas Jefferson and John Adams recommending the book.  The author wrote, the people of the US were not only Protestants but they also protested Protestantism.  It is tradition for us to have religious disagreement, and we agree Thomas Jefferson had a deist leaning, and edited the bible.   What traditional value could a be breaking here?  

How does my sense of traditional values differ from your?  I think we might have religious disagreements, but that is completely traditional isn't it?   
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Posts: 19 		  Quote Airhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 13:36
It was a question dear.  I don't presume to know what you think, so I asked you what you think, because I was curious.
 
I don't mind disagreement at all.  You said you believe in God.  The concept of God did not come from the Greeks.  It came from the Hebrews, who call Him YHWH.  The Greeks/Romans were smart, but they thought the planets were gods, and they practised paganism, and glorified self indulgance and had unbalanced and decadant culture that ultimately lead to their fall.  Notice a simularity to today?  If we don't learn from past errors, history will repeat.
 
So your idea of God would have to be at least strongly influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition.  Yet you appear to accept parts (that you presumably like) and disregard others (that you presumambly don't like), hence the cherry picking.  I don't see the logic or reason that is ellegedly employed, hence the question.


Edited by Airhead - 20-Jul-2010 at 13:47
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Dear Airhead, since you are from Idaho, why don't you change you name to "Potato-head?"    It is much less derogatory, and well describes one of the main crops found there!

Now, back to the wars of words!

I tend to side with women that in the earliest families, women ruled! It was not the germ of the father that gave God-hood to someone, or "rulership" but it was from the womb of the Woman who bore the royal blood in her body!

Jesus is but one example! During the crusades and earlier, it was also the "raison d'etre" of royalty! Queens are reported to have even given birth in public, to prove that the next Queen or King, was their issue and that of no other!

The connection of Jesus' earthly father was most probably a later insertation, to prove his relationship to nobility! Jesus, was first and formost, born to royalty, and it was made a big point!

There exists a woman who had written numerous books concerning "Women and Fable", etc., and I would suggest every woman read her works!

Remember there exists the fable? about the female Pope also!

Her name is Barbara G. Walker!

One of you might well "read it/them and weep?"

That is, if both of you are women?

Regards anyway!

Edited by opuslola - 20-Jul-2010 at 14:12
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Posts: 19 		  Quote Airhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 14:15
My children call me airhead, because they are ungratefull heathens.  I'm only kidding.  I'm sure that it is a term of affection.  LOL
 
In history, many humans have abused the Bible and manipulated it's texts to serve themselves, rather than serve others, which was what Jesus' central message was. 
 
Yes, I am a woman.
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It has occurred to me, we might want to have a record of traditional US values.  The values I am presenting have been worded slightly differently in a variety of books usually written when the US enters a war, distinguishing the values of the US from those of our enemy.   I enjoy collecting these books, so if you know of one that is for sell, let me know.

My favorite is a text book series published in the 1940's preparing the US to engage in war against Germany.   By the way, when we entered WWI industry wanted to close public schools, and teachers argued, "An institution of making good citizens, is good for making patriotic citizens", and public schools remained open and were focused on mobilizing the US for war, and supporting the war effort.  Any way here is one way to list the traditional US values.
1.   Respect for the dignity and worth of the individual human personality.
2.   Open opportunity for the individual.
3.   Economic and social security.
4.   The search for truth.
5.   Free discussion; freedom of speech; freedom of the press.
6.   Universal education.
7.   The rule of the majority; the rights of the minority; the honest ballot.
8.   Justice for the common man; trial by jury; arbitration of disputes; orderly legal processes;                  freedom from search and seizure; right to petition.
9.   Freedom of religion. 
10.  Respect for the rights of private property.
11.   The practice of the fundamental virtues.
12.   The responsibility of the individual to participate in the duties of democracy.

I also like my grandmother's three rules to live by

1.  We respect everyone because we are respectful people.  It doesn't matter who the other is, because it is not the other who determines how we act.  Be the other a bum or the major of the town, we treat every one with respect, because that is the kind of people we are.

2.  We act with dignity and protect the dignity of others.  

3.  We do everything with integrity.  This is beyond we don't steal, lie or cheat.  It is being             
      trustworthy and honorable.  

"I want to add this.  We have civic duties and we have family duties.   There is not a moment without some duty."  Cicero

"Duty is a power that rises with us in the morning, and goes to rest with us at night.  It is co-extensive with the action of our intelligence.  It is the shadow that cleaves to us, go where we will."  Gladstone 

"Every duty we omit, obscures some truth we should have known."  Ruskin 

I love the word "duty" it is what gives is honor and perseverance.    
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In the 40s, God was safe in our schools.  Teachers could talk about Jesus without fear of getting fired.  We could maintain a happy balance between freedom and morality.
 
It is only after we asked God to leave our schools, that God replied: "Ok, if that's what you want, you'll get it."
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I would argue that religion has been the root of evil, not secularism. Lets look back on history and see what lesson's we've learned:

1) economic development and social progress came as religions hold on society became weaker and weaker
2) control over society and politics by religion is a very bad thing

How many successful theocracies have there been? Christian theocracies failed, and Islamic theocracies are failing.
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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Originally posted by Airhead

It was a question dear.  I don't presume to know what you think, so I asked you what you think, because I was curious.
 
I don't mind disagreement at all.  You said you believe in God.  The concept of God did not come from the Greeks.  It came from the Hebrews, who call Him YHWH.  The Greeks/Romans were smart, but they thought the planets were gods, and they practised paganism, and glorified self indulgance and had unbalanced and decadant culture that ultimately lead to their fall.  Notice a simularity to today?  If we don't learn from past errors, history will repeat.
 
So your idea of God would have to be at least strongly influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition.  Yet you appear to accept parts (that you presumably like) and disregard others (that you presumambly don't like), hence the cherry picking.  I don't see the logic or reason that is ellegedly employed, hence the question.

How do I say this delicately?   You show awareness of many gods, so it is not logical to argue the notion of God comes from the Hebrews.  The God of Moses is one of many concepts of god.   The God of Moses is not so different from Zeus, a humanized god.  The God of Moses is a jealous, fearsome, revengeful God, okay?  Can't get much more human than that.  He rules by whim, punishing and pleasing people depending on if they please him or not.  Really, can't get any more human that.   

I much prefer the notion of God that is the force that organizes the universe.   I prefer Cicero's understanding of God.  If we do wrong bad, the consequence will be bad.  If we do good, the consequence will be good.  What makes something right or wrong is the consequence.   No prayers, burning of candles, or animal sacrifices will change the consequences of what we put into motion.   Another way to look at this is by asking the questions the Greek philosophers asked.  That would go something like this, is something good or bad, because the gods say it is good or bad, or is do the gods say something is good or bad, because it is good or bad?   Questions like this is how they evolved from believing in many gods, to believing in one force that organizes the universe, or one God.  Of course along with this line of thinking is math.  It is unfortunate the writers of the bible did not first study math and the areas of study identified by Aristotle, before they set out to write of "God's truth".    

At least 5 biblical stories are translations of Sumerian stories.  Christianity is full of Hellenistic, Persian and Egyptian concepts.   I would rush to a bible story class that included knowledge of Hellenism, Persian and Egyptian theology.   I am not interested in bible studies limited to the study of the bible, and the misinformation that this involves.   

Please, understand, I can not get away with any wrong.  No one can.   Understanding this brings us to the highest morality.   If I do wrong, the consequences will be bad.  That is why it is the wrong thing to do.  To avoid doing wrong, I must train my conscience for the best possible moral judgement.   That was the intent of Socrates' questions, but he too veered too far from math and science.  Our education was about making good moral judgment and we could do this without the bible, however, not without some concept the laws of the universe, God.   It means if you pick up a gun and shoot someone, killing this person, saying prayers, burning candles, sacrificing animals isn't going to undo what you did.   No savior is going to jump up and make everything right.  No god is going to violate the laws of the universe, no matter how much He might likes you, or dislikes you.   That is what the Greeks determined when they gave up worshiping many gods.   From there, it was only a question of who right to define God.  

Oh by the way, Airhead.  Thanks to your argument, I have finally decided on the title and focus or my book.   I have worked on this book for many years, and hit a wall on this religious issue.  I did not want to get into a religious argument with anyone, when trying to explain democracy, but it is unavoidable.   So now instead of trying to avoid the issue, I will take it head on.     The title is going to be "Democracy, God and Morals Without Religion".    
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 16:07
Originally posted by Airhead

In the 40s, God was safe in our schools.  Teachers could talk about Jesus without fear of getting fired.  We could maintain a happy balance between freedom and morality.
 
It is only after we asked God to leave our schools, that God replied: "Ok, if that's what you want, you'll get it."

Doesn't this make God a jealous and petty God?  

Besides your information is incomplete.  We replaced our liberal education with education for technology for military and industrial purpose.  We stopped transmitting our culture and left moral training to the church, making a big mess of things!  This includes Christians saying, "oh, then you don't have God and morals".   Every nation must have moral citizens and their holy books are not the only source of morality.   When we speak as though only those who believe as we do have God and morals, we destroy democracy!   These Christians have become our worst problem.  When I say we must return to education for good moral judgment, they get defensive and say they don't want anyone teaching their children morals.  This is a very poor understanding of God and morals.

 A moral is a matter of cause and effect.  We would read our children moral stories, such as "The Little Red Hen" and ask, "What is the moral of that story?".  The moral of "The Little Red Hen" story is, no one would help her make bread so she didn't share it.   We used the such literature and the classics and hero stories to teach good moral judgment.   Greek mythology gives us some of the very best moral stories, and are excellent at creating a moral and just society, and at transitioning to youth to adulthood.  But with education for technology, we did as the Germans did, leaving moral education to the church, destroyed our national heroes, and praising efficiency,  with huge social and political ramifications!   

We began preparing our young for a technological society with unknown values, thus manifesting an amoral society, which leads to anarchy and in turn anarchy leads to authority over the people.
We are destroying our democracy, and that is why I write.  Germany was the seat of the Holy Roman Empire, and the seat of the Protestant Reformation, and it was not lack of Christianity that made Germany our world war enemy.   Christianity without education for democracy is not a good thing.   
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 16:30
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

I would argue that religion has been the root of evil, not secularism. Lets look back on history and see what lesson's we've learned:

1) economic development and social progress came as religions hold on society became weaker and weaker
2) control over society and politics by religion is a very bad thing

How many successful theocracies have there been? Christian theocracies failed, and Islamic theocracies are failing.


Wait a minute, this information is incomplete.  True Christianity was as opposed to capitalism as Islam, and did hold Christian Europe in poverty, as have some Muslim countries.  However, Jews were experts at banking and earning a buck.  It was largely their success that turned Europeans against them.   Also Calvinism opened the door for Christian capitalism. Puritans had an economic motive for moving to the New Land, and Quakers and Mormons have excellent economic values.   We can not fault the whole of religion with economic failure, because that just is not true.   

And really, the US has been so Christian dominated, it might as well have been a theocracy.  Many treated the Bill of Rights  assurance of religious freedom, to mean free be Christian.  I lived in a community that was very public about saving the community for Christians.  We need to be accurate here if we are going to be working with truth.  Only recently was it possible for us to educate all children.  Education was not mandatory and many parents kept their children home to work.  Labor laws prevented children from working in factories during school hours, but didn't prevent them from working for the parents in a shop or on the farm.  We had massive illiteracy.  My X's depression era parents were opposed to him getting schooling instead of going to work.   My step father had to complete his chores before he could go to school.   

For the majority of people the church was their source of education and their source of a social life.
Remember, they didn't have TV and computers, and were lucky to have a computer.   For many their only knowledge of the world outside of their home town was a Sears and Robocks catalog, and may be a rare traveling sells man.   Yet we prospered very well.   
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