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The Meaning of Liverpool!

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  Quote liverhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Meaning of Liverpool!
    Posted: 03-Feb-2015 at 15:42
The meaning of the phrase 'Liverpool' is mentioned on a new GCSE History website.

www.historyofliverpool.com


The site is packed with quizzes and games that are related to various schools history topics (Battle of Hastings, The Norman Conquests, Medieval Feudalism, The 100 Years War, The War Of The Roses and The English Civil War.)

The site is (and will always be) free to use.  It is only half way through development, so any advice or feedback welcome.

 
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2013 at 17:23
Nick, just got my first look at your old post. It is quite good!

So, how are you?

Ron
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2012 at 21:45

The only distinguishing livery i've seen Scousers wearing are football shirts and chavvy tracksuits. They are stereotypically reluctant to work and have a fondness for pinching thingsLOL
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2010 at 19:16
I just hope you understand my position? I don't think you realize that the question was accepted and printed, and the answer was, as you have supposed, very nearly exactly as yours!

And, as I mentioned earlier, and as I used the word in the above sentence, the world "supposed" or "assumed" are the key words!

Just because the "experts" assume or suppose things as being something akin to "fact" does not make it so, no matter how many years these "experts" and their followers say it is so!

As one poster repeatedly said, "the plural of ancecdote is not a fact!"

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  Quote Welshcanadian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 23:41
OK, fair enough.  Thanks for taking the time to reply
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 21:00
No actually I did not really mistake your post as approval, but the very first paragraph of my original post says this;

"In the Nov/Dec, 2003 issue of ARCHAEOLOGY, I found an article entitled ASSAULT ON TRADITION, by David Keys. In this article Mr. Keys wrote; By the end of the seventeenth century, Liverpool was already Britain’s third largest port, and its hundred ships, manned by 1,100 seamen, played a major role in the sugar, rum, and tobacco trades. The original tidal inlet, the “pool” from which the city gets its name (liferpol is the Anglo-Saxon word for “muddy water creek”),...   (It should be noted that Liverpool is located in/on the estuary of the Mersey River.)"

So, you see I was already arguing against the Anglo-Saxon explanation! The "expert" already had the patent answer prepared for the magazine article and as you well know, it is rare when ever some one argues with an expert, especially in the pring media!

So, I merely got on the "Ferry and crossed the Mersey", with a new explanation!

You see, I was not just makeing up a new explanation, but rather challenging the very age of the city and port itself! You see, I doubt there exists any real information concerning the origin of the city's name, rather it is merely an assumption, made years ago, that has never been questioned.

What do you think now mate? Eh?

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  Quote Welshcanadian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 19:23
sorry about the spelling mistakes in my last post.  They have their origin in England...the West Country to be precise...
 
(Strongbow)...
 
(hic)
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  Quote Welshcanadian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 19:19

Maybe I should have worded my post differently but I was not supporting your theory.  It was an eloquent piece of work and I give you credit for all your research but I was, in fact, opposing your theory.  You are making the fundemental assumption that the word Liverpool derives from the English language whereas I'm saying it may stem from earlier times. 

I suppose the point I was trying to make was that you should not assume a place name in England has is origins in the English language.  Some place names pre-date the English language itself.  Some may have origins in a different language but have become anglicised over time.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not expert on such matters but I was aware that northern England southern Scotland and Wales once shared a common language (Brythonic) which in turn gave rise to other languages such as Welsh.    
 
You can break up the word Liverpool and look at literal interpretations of its component parts but you may be barking up the wrong tree old fella.  I'm not anti-English by the way, after all it is my mother tongue, but I thought maybe I had a different angle for you to think about.  And talking of 'angles' maybe the origin is 'anglo-saxon'...? 
 
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 15:42
Why thank you Welshcanadian, I think? Sorry, I just was unable to understand whether or not you supported my theory or not?

Welcome to the site, non-the-less!

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  Quote Welshcanadian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2010 at 22:43
The Welsh origin may not be as unlikely as you suggest.  In ancient times, parts of southern Scotland, most of northern England and most of Wales were inhabited by Brythonic tribes.  The Welsh language is derived from the ancient Brythonic language.  There are examples of place names in northern England having Brythonic origins e.g. Cumbria and Cumberland which both derived from the same origin as 'Cymru' - the Welsh name for 'Wales'.  

The links may not be obvious to you as you assume a place in England would not adopt a Welsh name, but when you consider that in ancient times there was a common language for the area which included both Wales and Liverpool then maybe it's possible.  The original name may well be Brythonic or even Welsh and was anglicised in more recent times.


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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2010 at 18:04
Logic is sometimes the doom of a society! One must assume that most men are therefor "logical?"

There lies or lays, or "lius" / "Livs", the problem!

Edited by opuslola - 09-Jun-2010 at 18:06
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2010 at 17:34
You condmen yourself to be fair.

The History of Liverpool can be traced back to 1190 when the place was known as 'Liuerpul'

Historical records for Liverpool start in 1190, but Liverpool existed prior to this. It did not grow from thin air, it existed prior to 1190, for which there is no historic record for. It had a name and the Anglo-Saxon name thoery still remains likely. Though theres always the possibility of the Welsh one. Even if an academic historian had put forward the idea I would still have disputed it upon the grounds of logic.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2010 at 06:20
Perhaps?

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=livery

"livery
c.1300, "household allowance of any kind (food, provisions, clothing) to retainers or servants," from Anglo-Fr. livere (late 13c.), O.Fr. livrée, originally "(clothes) delivered by a master to his servants," from fem. pp. of livrer "to dispense, deliver, hand over," from L. liberare (see liberate). The sense later was reduced to "servants' rations" and "provender for horses" (mid-15c.). The former led to the meaning "distinctive clothing given to servants" (early 14c.); the latter now is obsolete except in livery stable (1705). Related: Liveried."

Is 1300 CE early enough?

And; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Liverpool

"The History of Liverpool can be traced back to 1190 when the place was known as 'Liuerpul', possibly meaning a pool or creek with muddy water. Other origins of the name have been suggested, including 'elverpool', a reference to the large number of eels in the Mersey, but the definitive origin is open to debate and is probably lost to history. A likely derivation is connected with the Welsh word "Llif" meaning a flood, often used as the proper name for the Atlantic Ocean, whilst "pool" is in general in place names in England derived from the late British or Welsh "Pwll" meaing variously, a pool, an inlet or a pit."

Note that the name origin was "probably lost to history!", and any specific origin can only be described as "likely!"

Thus my derivation is in general just as "likely" as any other! It is based upon a famous group who literally ran port cities in the past!

These words from above; "..1190 when the place was known as 'Liuerpul'", only shows an obvious case whereby the Latin "v", is was was transposed into a "u", which is very common!

Thus the "finger" was upon the hand that overlooked my meaning for another one!

If a respected historian etc., had proposed my solution, it would have at least have acquired some attention, and mention! Thus, it seems most likely to me, that I might well be the first to promote such a definition, etc.?

Thus your dismissal, out of hand, was or is not very reasonable!

If the real etymology or history of this word is "lost!", then there does exist that it could be "found?"

Edited by opuslola - 09-Jun-2010 at 06:21
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2010 at 16:26
and who might that be?
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2010 at 15:37
Dear DreamWeaver, I would suggest that you look and see if there is not someone else with their finger upon the scales!
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2010 at 15:34
By the way, just how many of you,(those reading these replys) have ever written a letter to any editor of any respected magazine, or how many of you have ever had one published?

So,come on and confess? Laugh!
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2010 at 15:31
The entire enterprise, was designed to move ancient history closer to our time!

Thus, if the correct time setback or setforward, if you please, is used then the times of Liferpools greatness, is moved much closer to our times than our consensual history and chronology can ever forsee!
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 06:25
I weighed and measured it and found it severely wanting.
 
 
Anglo Saxon Argument for the win.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2010 at 19:53
"Oh foolish race of Man, How overwhelming is thy ignorance!"

Well, just what can I say? You, have overwhelmed all of my information in a mere "glance!"

But, for all of your education, as well as your "post graduate!" edcucation, you still would rather impugne my information, rather than consider it?

You must remember it, is the relative, "time lines" that keep us apart?

And, unless you have any "new" information that could dispute my claims, then, perhaps you should have become, "Mute?!"

My regards to you for your post, is great! However!

I would however, respectfully ask you to again review my words, VS the contempary view, whilst not conforming to current tradition?

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 31-May-2010 at 20:01
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2010 at 15:55
I tend to dispute this assertion that Liverpool got its name from an old “Anglo-Saxon word for ‘muddy water creek’ since this would hardly be a descriptive word for the port and the tidal water therein. Because I am not an expert in extinct Anglo-Saxon words, I cannot argue that “liferpol” does not exist nor that it means “muddy water creek.” And, I do not know from what sources the author gathered his information that was used to explain the relation of “liferpol’ to Liverpool.



Enough said really.

To be honest the argument you put forward is nonsense. Liverpool existed in the anglo-saxon period, it had a name, then. Terms such as Livery and Poule/pool come into the english language later on. They come in after liverpool already exists. The industry associated wiht liverpool later on exists after this period as well. Therefore the anglo saxon is the most likely and the most sensible.


Also dont use Websters. Use the OED.


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