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The most oppressed nation in the Middle East

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  Quote Night Crawler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The most oppressed nation in the Middle East
    Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 04:27
Turkey with out NATO is nothing-- Cut them off and watch them come crawling back. However, Isreal with out the states is nothing.  So cut them both off and watch them beat eachother with sticks and stones.
 
 
Maybe Greece can beat on Turkey after they leave NATO. Would be nice to rename Istanbul.
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 05:14
Originally posted by Night Crawler

However, Isreal with out the states is nothing.  So cut them both off and watch them beat eachother with sticks and stones.
 



Not going to happen though, too much of a lobby for Israel.
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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 10:58
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus

Turkey will come back around they need the US-- They need US Logistical support, and the want the new Joint Strike fighter.
 
As for the invasion of Iraq--Once again SoD you are uninformed--Really you need to read more then jusy sensationilist headlines.
 
Turkey wanted to be the Invading force, they had thier leopards on the Iraqi border, they claim Iraqi land from the border to Kirkuk. When they were told they couldn't claim that land during the invasion thats when they got P@##$# off and refused, they also wanted a lot of US money as a bribe. Guess what we still used our bases in Turkey to attack Iraq, where do you think our planes flew from?
 
Yes, quite typical to Turkish policy. Two-faced towards "friends" and always hungry about foreign territory. I also hear about it. There is a information about Turkish plan for North Iraq occupation, just after Coalition force withdraw. In this moment only presence of Coalition forces stopped aspiration of Turkey and ensure Iraqi territorial integrity. Turkish army really love this priom of surprised attack against weak and unprepared enemy, just like they did in Cyprus. Obviously Turks want to begin restoration of their Ottoman empire from Iraq and Aegean islands. In 1998 they send a war ultimatum to Syria and put Syria on it`s knees. They wanted unconditional release of interference in internal affairs and transmission of suspected in PKK support. Now Turkey wants to extend its influence among Palestinians and started a game of nerves with Israel. If it`ll be war between Turkey and Israel, this will be end of Turkey, because Israel will smash Turkey in every aspect (include navy) and most generally- Turkey will finally lose the support of NATO. Nobody in Brussels want to be a shield of Turksih imperial ambitions.


Edited by Kanas_Krumesis - 03-Jun-2010 at 10:59
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 16:37
If Turkey starts any agression with Israel it will seriously dash any hopes they have of joining the EU, somthing they have been pushing for, for quite sometime.
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 18:17
Originally posted by Night Crawler

Maybe Greece can beat on Turkey after they leave NATO. Would be nice to rename Istanbul.
Yes. You can have that some time. Just maybe. In your dreams.Approve
 
Guys, you still don't get it. Turkey will survive, and later thrive, if they don't get into EU. I hope EU gives Turkey a clear, firm rejection some time. Instead of continually pussy footing and dilly dallying with no end in sight. It will then force Turkey to wean itself off Europe. In fact, I really feel that leading Turkish economists should start advising Turkey's leaders to stop begging for this lousy, virtually worthless membership.
 
Turkey then will have to reinvent itself, revamp itself and realign itself. It will be painful initially, but it will be good fot Turkey in the long term. Turkey is a Eurasian realm. It has to learn - or rather, re-learn - how to play as a Eurasian realm. An independently thinking, independently acting Eurasian realm. Not remain as an old faithful western lapdog.
 
The future is in Asia much more than Europe. Turkey will rediscover its Asian roots and prosper as a result of it, instead of perennially languishing as an economic beggar on the periphery of Europe. When Turkey one day revives its past glory, which it surely will, Europeans will look at it again with genuine respect, rather than derision and contempt.
 
As for NATO, it can eject Turkey if it wants. Let's see what happens. One likely scenario is Turkey drifting in the direction of its Turkic brothers in Asia, towards the China-Russia camp. If that is what NATO wants, fine then. So be it. Turkey won't wilt, let alone die.


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 03-Jun-2010 at 18:32
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  Quote Night Crawler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 21:32
Really with what economic resources? They don't have oil. The only thing than can do is build a pipeline to get oil and natural gas out of the Mid East--However Russia will never allow that to happen.  True enough they have a good manufacturing sector and a goog Ag sector- They make some decent cars-- But if not in the EU who is going to be them--Perhaps the middle calss in Afghanistan (HA HA) Or Iran (HA HA)  Even your heros the AK want to join the EU:
 
 Opinion polls are not always reliable in Turkey. Compared to previous poll by Konsensus published last month, the AK Party was down 2.8 percent, the CHP was down 1.2 percent while the MHP was up 1.4 percent.

Erdogan is hoping an economic recovery will boost the AK Party's popularity ahead of next year's scheduled vote.

Before Turkey sank into recession in 2009, the AK Party presided over years of strong economic growth and launched historic talks to join the European Union.

But it is distrusted by Turkey's powerful secular elite, including top judges and army generals, because of its roots in political Islam. The party denies any Islamist agenda. (Writing by Ibon Villelabeitia; Editing by Ralph Boulton)
With out the EU and NATO The will be reduced to begger status soon enough. Funny the AK seems to deney they are Islamist even they want to be secular. Turkey might have some hope yet


Edited by Night Crawler - 03-Jun-2010 at 21:45
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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 23:27
 Persons like Shield of Dardania (-Great Turkey?!) spread official Turkish propaganda in this forum not for the first time. I`m amazed about their awareness in this matter from one hand, and totally turning a blind eyes to the obvious things from another.
 
Did anybody going to Turkey outside big cities of Istanbul, Ankara, Bursa and Izmir? Situation is very very miserable! There is numerous villages without electricity, water supply and sanitation in 21 century. People work on the fields with horses and steer, like they did hundreds of years before. Many send their children to work as cheap labor all across Europe (especially Germany) and lived almost for the money they bring back to them. Every village have at least one mosque and many people can`t read, but know Quran by rote absolute brainwashed from Islamist priests.  Is this your modern country, seeking to measure forces with Europe!?  If you go forward in easternmost Turkish region, you will see is a military zone. Soldiers in every step, barbed wire, emplacements, checkpoints and silent people scared to talk it`s Kurd language on public.
 
Turkish economy depend on "pussy footing" Europe and other foreign investment (Japan and USA). European companies build a factory and plants in Turkey, not Turkish itself because they don`t have any potential to produce anything without foreign help. Only a food products. Outside NATO and with Islamist aggressive government on top all this investment will escape immediately, be sure about it. Tha`s why Erdogan is cautious to this moment, but obviously he begin to lose correct idea of things from awhile.
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  Quote Night Crawler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 03:00
I will tell you who are oppressed in the Middle East --Its easy anyone who isn't a Suuni Muslim male in Sunni Lands or a Shia Muslim male in Shia lands-- If you aren't the same relgion and a Man your screwed in the Middle East:
 
How about the women in Sadi Arabia. Lucky for them the Saud government is stepping in.
 
From the Economist Politics this week:
 
In an attempt to stop child marriages, Saudi Arabia began issuing wedding contracts in which the bride’s age must now be given. The move was prompted by cases of girls as young as eight being married off to much older men.
 
Or how about the Ahmadis
 
Heavily armed men stormed two mosques in the Pakistani city of Lahore, detonating bombs and killing more than 90 Ahmadis, members of a persecuted Muslim sect. Other gunmen attacked a hospital three days later, apparently trying to free one of the mosques’ attackers. Police blamed the “Punjabi Taliban”.
 
How about Justice that is oppressed:
 

A 48-year-old Somali begs for his life as he is partially
buried in preparation for stoning over adultery by an
Islamic court.  (Needless-to-say,
he wasn't successful).

Put the Numbers in Perspective


More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. (source)
 

Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years. (
source)

More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland. (source)

19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years. (source)
 
You have to love the Liberal attitude in the Middle East--These are the guys the Shield of D defends?
 
But back to the Jews--Yes they mucked it all up, yes they were heavy handed, they could have handled this better but:
 

Harmony is not just a dream

Israel is caught in a vicious circle. The more its hawks think the outside world will always hate it, the more it tends to shoot opponents first and ask questions later, and the more it finds that the world is indeed full of enemies. Though Mr Netanyahu has reluctantly agreed to freeze settlement-building and is negotiating indirectly with Palestinians, he does not give the impression of being willing to give ground in the interests of peace.

Yet the prospect of a deal between Palestinians and Israelis still beckons. The contours of a two-state solution remain crystal-clear: an adjusted border, with Israel keeping some of the biggest settlements while Palestine gets equal swaps of land; Jerusalem shared as a capital, with special provisions for the holy places; and an admission by Palestinians that they cannot return to their old homes in what became Israel in 1948, with some theoretical right of return acknowledged by Israel and a small number of refugees let back without threatening the demographic preponderance of Jewish Israelis.

And what about Hamas, if Israel is to lift the siege of Gaza? How should Israel handle an authoritarian movement that refuses to recognise it and has in the past readily used terror? One answer is to ask the UN to oversee the flow of goods and people going in and out of Gaza. That is hardly a cure-all, but Hamas would become the world’s problem neighbour, not just Israel’s. The Arab world must do more, pressing Hamas to disavow violence, publicly pledge not to resume the firing of rockets at Israeli civilians and revoke its anti-Semitic charter. The West, led by Mr Obama, should call for Hamas to be drawn into negotiations, both with its rival Palestinians on the West Bank as well as with Israel, even if it does not immediately recognise the Jewish state. It is still the party the Palestinians elected in 2006 to represent all of them. None of this will be easy. But the present stalemate is bloodily leading nowhere.

Israel is a regional hub of science, business and culture. Despite its harsh treatment of Palestinians in the land it occupies, it remains a vibrant democracy. But its loneliness, partly self-inflicted, is making it a worse place, not just for the Palestinians but also for its own people. If only it can replenish its stock of idealism and common sense before it is too late.

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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 03:06
Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

 Persons like Shield of Dardania (-Great Turkey?!) spread official Turkish propaganda in this forum not for the first time. I`m amazed about their awareness in this matter from one hand, and totally turning a blind eyes to the obvious things from another.
 
Did anybody going to Turkey outside big cities of Istanbul, Ankara, Bursa and Izmir? Situation is very very miserable! There is numerous villages without electricity, water supply and sanitation in 21 century. People work on the fields with horses and steer, like they did hundreds of years before. Many send their children to work as cheap labor all across Europe (especially Germany) and lived almost for the money they bring back to them. Every village have at least one mosque and many people can`t read, but know Quran by rote absolute brainwashed from Islamist priests.  Is this your modern country, seeking to measure forces with Europe!?  If you go forward in easternmost Turkish region, you will see is a military zone. Soldiers in every step, barbed wire, emplacements, checkpoints and silent people scared to talk it`s Kurd language on public.
 
Turkish economy depend on "pussy footing" Europe and other foreign investment (Japan and USA). European companies build a factory and plants in Turkey, not Turkish itself because they don`t have any potential to produce anything without foreign help. Only a food products. Outside NATO and with Islamist aggressive government on top all this investment will escape immediately, be sure about it. Tha`s why Erdogan is cautious to this moment, but obviously he begin to lose correct idea of things from awhile.
People still work on some farms, in certain places, with horses and steer even in Germany, England and France. Even in certain places in Switzerland, the country with the highest per capita income in the world. What's the big deal about that? That's what you keep a workhorse for, to work your farm.
 
Learning the Quran by memory is an Islamic tradition that has gone on for over 14 centuries. Why do you have a problem with that? It's a tradition some folks still like to follow voluntarily. There is a certain method to it, it needs a certain special ability, not to mention commitment, and not every Tom, Dick and Harry can do it even if he's crazy about it. There is absolutely no compulsion to it. Absolutely none at all.
 
You have to understand. Turkey is a country that was at one time almost totally crushed by the combined might of Russia, Britain and France. With countries like Greece and Bulgaria making opportunistic attempts to do some land grabbing. It's a miracle that they've actually survived to the extent they did. It's only natural that a country with Turkey's experience is extremely sensitive regarding matters pertaining to territorial integrity.
 
Turkey's GDP (nominal) for 2009 was over US$600 billion, and per capita income (nominal) was almost US$9,000. Translated into Purchasing-Power-Parity (PPP) terms, its GDP was close to US$900 billion, while its per capita income was close to US$13,000. For an Asian country, okay, Eurasian if you like, with negligible oil resources, that's rather quite impressive economic data, one has to admit. Don't you think so?
 
For comparison:
Mexico, per capita income, nominal: US$10,000, PPP: US$14,500. Brazil, per capita income, nominal: US$8,000, PPP: US$10,500.
 
I agree, things perhaps can be better there. But they aren't that bad either.


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 04-Jun-2010 at 03:34
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  Quote Night Crawler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 03:08
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

People still work on some farms, in certain places, with horses and steer even in Germany, England and France. Even is certain places in Switzerland, the country with the highest per capita income in the world. What's the big deal about that?
 
Learning the Quran by memory is an Islamic tradition that has gone on for over centuries. Why do you have a problem with that? It's a tradition some folks still like to follow voluntarily. There is absolutely no compulsion to it. Absolutely none at all.
 
You have to understand. Turkey is a country that was at one time almost totally crushed by the combined might of Russia, Britain and France. With countries like Greece and Bulgaria making opportunistic attempts to do some land grabbing. It's a miracle that they've actually survived to the extent they did. It's only natural that a country with Turkey's experience is extremely sensitive regarding matters pertaining to territorial integrity.
 
Turkey's GDP (nominal) for 2009 was over US$600 billion, and per capita income (nominal) was almost US$9,000. Translated into Purchasing-Power-Parity (PPP) terms, its GDP was close to US$900 billion, while its per capita income was close to US$13,000. For an Asian country, okay, Eurasian if you like, with negligible oil resources, that's rather quite impressive economic data, one has to admit. Don't you think so?
 
I agree, things perhaps can be better there. But they aren't that bad either.
 
I take it you didn't read the post above.
 
Here is some more of Islams awesome treatment of women:
 

After military conquests, Muhammad would dole out captured women as war prizes to his men.  In at least one case, he advocated that they be raped in front of their husbands.  Captured women were made into sex slaves by the very men who killed their husbands and brothers.  There are four Qur’anic verses in which "Allah" makes clear that a Muslim master has full sexual access to his female slaves, yet there is not one that prohibits rape.

The Qur’an gives Muslim men permission to beat their wives for disobedience.  It plainly says that husbands are “a degree above” wives.  The Hadith says that women are intellectually inferior, and that they comprise the majority of Hell’s occupants.

Under Islamic law, a man may divorce his wife at the drop of a hat.  If he does this twice, then wishes to remarry her, she must first have sex with another man.  Men are exempt from such degradations.

 
 
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 03:15
Females as spoils of war has been an ongoing phenomenon for millenia. Everybody knows that. Don't you pretend you don't. Not only the Arabs did it. It's happened everywhere, all throughout history. In Greece, Persia, Rome, Byzantium, you name it.
 
It couldn't be simply stopped in short order. It had become ingrained as a part of military culture. But the practice was progressively phased out in Islam.
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 05:40
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

Females as spoils of war has been an ongoing phenomenon for millenia. Everybody knows that. Don't you pretend you don't. Not only the Arabs did it. It's happened everywhere, all throughout history. In Greece, Persia, Rome, Byzantium, you name it.
 
It couldn't be simply stopped in short order. It had become ingrained as a part of military culture. But the practice was progressively phased out in Islam.
 
The differnce is the west has evolved in The Mid east women are mere property-- When the Taliban blows up little girls becuase they want to go to school, that should tell you something. They don't want an educated female population, why you ask---Becuase women tend to be a liberalizing force in the reform of governments.


Edited by Maximus Germanicus - 04-Jun-2010 at 05:41
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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 13:02
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

Turkey's GDP (nominal) for 2009 was over US$600 billion, and per capita income (nominal) was almost US$9,000. Translated into Purchasing-Power-Parity (PPP) terms, its GDP was close to US$900 billion, while its per capita income was close to US$13,000. For an Asian country, okay, Eurasian if you like, with negligible oil resources, that's rather quite impressive economic data, one has to admit. Don't you think so?
 
For comparison:
Mexico, per capita income, nominal: US$10,000, PPP: US$14,500. Brazil, per capita income, nominal: US$8,000, PPP: US$10,500.
 
I agree, things perhaps can be better there. But they aren't that bad either.
 
In your unique style you try to compare Brazil with Turkey?! Be careful because Brazil is just like entire continent. There is not only the Amazon, but also regions with standard of living absolute equal to European or North American. With huge European population. Germany is a major weakness to every Turkish citizen. Ask anyone Turk where he want to work and to live and hear the answer. I can imagine how would react one ordinary Turk when he see photo`s of this Brazilian cities
 
 
 
He will prepare to emigrate immediately with a whole family, and soon we often will see Brazilian landscape like this Wink LOL
 
 


Edited by Kanas_Krumesis - 04-Jun-2010 at 13:16
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  Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 16:28
Turkey are far more advanced then Brazil, thats for sure.

And what you post are most likely from Kurdish regions.





Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 04-Jun-2010 at 16:31
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 17:47
Turkey and Brazil are at the same level pretty much, the difference is that Brazil has a much larger population which makes spreading out the wealth harder.

But likewise, because of Brazil's large amount of natural resources and large population, it is set to become a world power, just as China, India, and Russia are.
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 18:18
TGS is right there, India and Brazil are much more likely i nthe next fewdecades to excell as global powers, where as Turkey is not.
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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 23:35
Originally posted by Emil_Diniyev

Turkey are far more advanced then Brazil, thats for sure.

And what you post are most likely from Kurdish regions.



 
Think twice and read more before talk. Brazilian aerospace company Embraer is world`s fourth bigger producer of commercial aircraft after Boing, Airbus and Bombardier. Is Turkey produce something like this?
 
 
Many Brazilian companies are world leaders in their sector. Like Petrobras (Energy and petrochemicals), WEG Industries (Industrial equipment and machinery) and Gerdau (steel). There is also many Brazilian companies which produce their own high-tech products like Gradiente and Bravox in computers and electronics. Iochpe-Maxion, Marcopolo and Troller in automaking. Is Turkish company a world leader in any sector? Or to produce anything without joint-venture and know-how purchase?  
 
Kurds aren`t culpable to all misery and problems in Turkey. The photographs are from villages just outside of Ankara.
 
I can`t compare India with Brazil, because they are too different. Brazil is a country create from Europeans and somehow European project. India is unique country with long history. Both have huge population, resources and can make power to their own way.


Edited by Kanas_Krumesis - 04-Jun-2010 at 23:39
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  Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 03:01
How about Turkish Airlines? Who are also official sponsor of football teams like Barcelona, Manchester City.

In production and industry, Turkey and Brazil cannot be compared. Turkey are top 20 economy without oil, gas and actually any considerable natural resource.

Just because you hate Turkey, you cannot spread BS.


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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 05:03
Ive flown Turkish Airlines and the food was surprisingly good and the longhaul flights were very comfy and it was at a dman good price too.


Actually you can compare Turkey and Brazil or India for that matter in terms of economy and industry, saying that you can not is just foolishness and laziness to be fair.

I dont hate Turkey, just because one says something that makes Turjey not loog great, or makes it look inferiror to something else doesnt mean you hate it, and its not BS to state that Brazil is set to excell on the world stage much sooner and better than Turkey will. Thats just the way things are because of the fortunate situation that Brazil andindeed India find themselves in.
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2010 at 03:36
Ok, maybe Mexico is a better comparison for Turkey than Brazil. Look back at the economic data I posted. Turkey is not far behind Mexico, with a more comparable population. But Mexico is much richer than Turkey in terms of natural resources. Which makes Turkey's economic performance even more impressive.
 
Turkey will get even better when it increases its economic engagement further with West Asia, Central Asia and East Asia, something which hasn't been fully developed up to this point in time, no thanks to its previous one-sided love affair with Europe.
 
The Turkey of tomorrow will be a much more multi-directional player. It can no more afford to be besotted with Europe alone. The sooner it realises that and adjust its bearings accordingly, the better.
 
Guys, today is the era of services and ICT. A country does not need to be a manufacturing heavyweight to advance and grow rich. It's the skills in organisation, management, logistics etc. that are more important to propel the country forward. In relation to these, Turkey's Ottoman experience as an imperial power will be an immense asset, if it's channeled and exploited in the right way.
 
Of course, manufacturing prowess helps, but it's no more the end-all-and-be-all of economic development. BTW, Turkey is also no mean player in the building and construction sector. Its construction firms have won and completed serious-scale construction jobs throughout Europe.


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 06-Jun-2010 at 03:43
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