Jews in medieval history

I don't think it has anything to do with conservatism.  I'm a flaming liberal myself.  While the Orthodox Jews who said this seem to be conservative people, in this particular instance it's a matter of categorization of what's Jewish.  In fact, only two point of view would render these Jews "still Jewish," one is the Orthodox religious view that a Jew can never become a non-Jew, the other is racialization theory that treats Jews as a race -- now the latter is truly ultra-conservative.  (I don't want to make associations between Orthodox Judaism and Nazi racialism, but in this particular instance their conclusion coincided in some aspects, albeit not in all aspects and definitely only reached their conclusion with radically different premises.)

What you said in effect places Jews in the European underclass, which was my point anyway.  Let's not say that they were worse off than anybody else -- the point is that, when themselves are considered in particular, they were a lower class.

Peace,

Michael

10-7-2004

Hey Cwyr,

    About losing Jewishness: during the 18th century or so, many Jews wanted to stop being Jews, period.  From Orthodox Judaism's point of view, there really isn't such a thing as Jewish race -- certainly, one born of a Jewish mother is a Jew, but Jewishness is also a matter of religiosity.  There's, therefore, no such thing as "half-Jewish" from Orthodox Judaism's piont of view.  Therefore, when these Jews were trying to lose their distinctive Jewishness, it isn't quite the same as a White person trying to stop being White; it's like one trying to renounce his culture and religion.  (Of course, from a religious point of view, a Jew can never stop being a Jew.)  With that said, a lot of Jews at the time believed that being granted citizenship was a sign that they can finally become a part of European society -- and at the same vein, they decided to assimilate.  Marx's father, for example, converted to Christianity, and Marx himself tried to get into a seminary to study.  There were slogans of sorts for the German Jews, saying that their holy land is now Germany.  That is what I mean by losing distinctive Jewishness.  Of course, that seemed to be the theory of the day: right now, the liberal academia favors pluralism, and many Jews are certainly much more adamant about keeping their Jewishness, even those who do not practice religious Judaism.

    Regarding prosperity: while it was possible to become a successful merchant, for a long time a merchant was not on the same level, as you said, as a noble.  The Jews were rather forced to take up trades that weren't prosperous: medicine, banking, etc, -- the irony being that these things are now some of the most prestigious professions.

    One thing that is particularly interesting is the disproportional success of modern Jews.  Some Orthodox Jews say that that's a sign that they are God's chosen people.  I'd suggest that sociological explanations can give us some clues.  I think it has a lot to do with the history of the Christian West and the Islamic countries, in both of which the Jews had a long history of residence.

Peace,

Michael

10-6-2004

The so called "anti-Semitism" in Europe is just a cliched rubbish. Israel will lable anyone or anything that opposes its goverenment as anti-Semite. Say something like "Israeli government is not doing enough to improve the lot of Palestinians" and accusations of being a nazi will fly in your face.

I'd say Semite-supremeism is a greater threat to the world than anti-Semitism these days. Jews were always victims and just because of that "fact" they have right to take over other peoples' land and enforce an apartheid...

Hey all,

    The status of Jews in Medieval Europe is actually quite similar to the Gypsies.  Also analogous are the African Americans in America.  The Jewish Holocaust didn't come out of the blue as a result of Nazism -- Nazism being the direct and principle cause of it, this sentiment had been brewing for centuries of anti-Semitism.  The stereotype of the wealthy and successful Jews is a recent thing (really started last century.)  For millenia they were the outcasts of Europe (also convenient tools of European monarchs.  As Christians weren't allowed to give loans for interests, and as Jews weren't Christians, some Jews became bankers with the support of the states for valuable tax revenue.  A lot of money was taxed from these Jewish bankers, and at the same time, the stereotype of the blood-sucking Jewish money lenders perpetuated among the Europeans, who saw the Jews as the taxcollectors of the state.  It was a no win situation for the Jews.)  The Jews were better off during the first millenium, but their status incrementally worsened during the High Middle Ages.  Many were confined to the ghettos (which turned out to be a quite a blessing, ironically, as this solidified the solidarity of the European Jews, and fostered philosophical and religious training thus producing many great minds and perhaps served as a precursor of the tremendous academic successes of the Jews in recent history.)  Things only got progressively worse as Southern France saw an increase of Christian heresies, and the Inquisition was born.  Originally the Inquisition has nothing to do with the Jews, but as time went by the Jews were also targeted (particularly during the Spanish Inquisition.)  Jews who converted to Christianity were viewed with suspicion because the Spanish feared that they were just doing so to avoid trouble.  Then the old order of things was receding and the new order of the Enlightenment began, only to make things worse for the Jews.  The propaganda in the pretext of humanism convinced the Jews to lose their religious identity and "become everybody else."  Many Jews began to renounce their Jewish-ness, and embrace Europe as the Holy Land.  Problem being that as much as they want in, the Europeans weren't so welcoming.  Racial theories began to flourish in the Enlightenment, and culminated in the eugenic theories of Nazism.  Conspiracy theories suggesting that the Jews are trying to take over the world still survives, and European anti-semitism is on the rise.  I'm not trying to make Europeans look like the bad guys here: a remarkable amount of Europeans rescued the Jews from the Nazi, and throughout history many Europeans sympathized with the Jews.  (Robin Hood himself aided the Jews, after all.)  The Church was also instrumental in various occassions in protecting the Jews from the unsympathetic populace.  It's therefore wrong to say that the Europeans were always the bad guys; fact remains that the Jews had a really tough history in Europe, that's all.

Peace,

Michael

9-29-2004

I heard of German peasent-mobs massacring Jews during First Crusade... but I think massacres during Third Crusade is doubtful. At that time Frederik Barbarossa was leading them.

There is a myth about how Jews were docile victims of persecution... but racism and bigotry was mutual. Quotes from Talmud (Jewish religious book used alongside the Torah) are disturbing. The website below gives a variety of examples of racist-fascist quotes.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/talmudquotes.htm