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Albania and Atropatene - Ancient Azerbaijan

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  Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Albania and Atropatene - Ancient Azerbaijan
    Posted: 26-Apr-2010 at 02:36
Caucasian Albania and Atropatene.

Caucasian Albania: Modern day Republic of Azerbaijan = North Azerbaijan.

Atropatene: Modern day Iranian Azerbaijan = South Azerbaijan.



Gabala (located in northern Azerbaijan) ancient capital of Caucasian Albania.

Portray of Cabalaca, capital of Caucasian Albania.



The walls in Gabala.



Church of Kish, probably the earliest built church in whole Caucasus. Good exampele of Alban architecture.

Located in Sheki - northern Azerbaijan.



"A column capital of VII c. Christian church with an inscription in Caucasian Albanian, found in Mingachevir.[61] The column capital is now kept on display at Azerbaijan State Museum of History."



Alban alphabet, found in Sheki, Azerbaijan.








Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 27-Apr-2010 at 08:36
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  Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2010 at 02:38
Qazaka, ancient capital of Atropatene (Iranian Azerbaijan).








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  Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2010 at 02:40
Alban warriors






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  Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2010 at 02:47
edit......


Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 26-Apr-2010 at 08:33
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2010 at 08:42
There is no "northern" and "southern" Azerbaijan. There is a Republic of Azerbaijan, created in 1918, and Azerbaijan, a region established thousands of years ago, below the Aras River. But other than that, nice pictures, although becareful when looking at pictures drawn today of what people/cities may have been like back then, these are simply artists depictions.
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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2010 at 03:33
There is a theory about Albanian origin, whereby modern Albanians from Republic of Albania are descendants of Christian migrants from Caucasian Albania, settled into Balkan peninsula by Byzantine emperors during Persian-Byzantine wars. For example Albanians are the only one nation in South-East Europe which celebrate traditional Iranian fest Nowruz. Albanian language is also very different from other local languages. It is in generally Indo-European, but with many difference then Greek, Slavic and Latin. Of course in Albanian language present some words from ancient local Illyrian language.  
 
Numerals in Albanian:
 
një – one
dy – two
tre – three
katër – four
pesë – five
gjashtë – six
shtatë – seven
tetë – eight
nëntë – nine
dhjetë – ten
njëqind – one hundred
 


Edited by Kanas_Krumesis - 27-Apr-2010 at 03:35
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  Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2010 at 04:41
None-sense. Caucasian Albans spoke a native Caucasian language unrelated to any Indo-European language around (Armenia, Persian, Scythians) first of all. And a North Caucasian one.

Caucasian Albans simple mengled with coming Turkic tribes. There was total of 24 tribes.

One of them still remaining in Azerbaijan, in a very small number.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udi_people

Modern Azerbaijan having direct link with Caucasian Albania and Caucasian Albans destroys the Armenia's baseless claims in region.

Indeed our roots are Turkic and we are Turkic nation, but we have also that history.



Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 27-Apr-2010 at 05:47
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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2010 at 08:07
I don`t think so. As it seen in Wikipedia article Udi people recieved relevant impact from other local cultures like Armenian, Persian, Georgian... They also use to speak different languages, include Azeri and Russian. I`m agree that ancient Caucasian Albanians had been Caucasians, not Indo-Europeans but obviously they shared foreign influence. The Caucasian Albanians were a Orthodox Christians, adopt it from Armenians. Modern Udi people also use Armenian and Georgian alphabet till now. I don`t think that Azeri could claim about direct link with Caucasian Albania. There is a link exactly, but similar to link between modern Mexicans and old Mayan for example. You expose your Turkic root generally, you speak Turkic language. Your culture and appearance at all is not Mongol-Altaic, but this is a different question.
You talking about some Armenian claimes in the region. From politics or from historic point of veiw? If we talking about from historic at least Armenians create some kind of original alphabet and culture. It`s interesting what kind of alphabet invent or used Seljuq tribes?
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  Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2010 at 08:31
Albanian Church are not adopted from Armenian. Armenian Church are not Orthodox in first place. Research more.

Caucasian Albans with everything are more linked to Azerbaijan then anything else, thats my point. The area we are talking about (Udi) are very distinct to Armenians. We have to remember that there was 24 tribes of Albania, sure, some of them in south could have some links with Armenians, but a very minor one.




Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 27-Apr-2010 at 08:37
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  Quote kalhur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2010 at 13:57
emil 
i have even a better more detailed map of region.
i hope you will love itLOL
iranian peoples lived within the same empire most of the time until the mid-1800s, when much territory - including the region comprising the present-day Republic of Azerbaijan - was lost to the Russian Empire, . See also: Greater Iran and The Great Game.

Iranian philosopher Dr. Mahmoud Afshar (of Turkic-speaking Iranian Afshar origin and father of Iraj Afshar) developed the Pan-Iranist ideology in the early 1920s in opposition to Pan-Turkism and Pan-Arabism, which were seen as potential threats to the territorial integrity of Iran. He also displayed a strong belief in the nationalist character of Iranian people throughout the country’s long history.


Edited by kalhur - 27-Apr-2010 at 14:04
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2010 at 15:22
Originally posted by Emil_Diniyev


Caucasian Albans simple mengled with coming Turkic tribes. There was total of 24 tribes.

One of them still remaining in Azerbaijan, in a very small number.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udi_people

Modern Azerbaijan having direct link with Caucasian Albania and Caucasian Albans destroys the Armenia's baseless claims in region.

Indeed our roots are Turkic and we are Turkic nation, but we have also that history.


um... How can you, who call yourself an Azeri, claim that the Armenia's have no claim over your territory when at the same time you have claim over the original territory of Azerbaijan based on nothing?! The hypocrisy and contradictions amazes me...

Technically speaking, the Caucasian Albanians were Christian just as the Armenians were, wouldnt they technically have been closer to the Armenians rather than the invading Turkic armies?

I dont believe anyone should rewrite history or spread propaganda just for nationalist purposes, whether Armenian, Iranian, or Azeri (Republic of Azerbaijan)... but you cannot attack Armenians for making exactly the same absurd claims that you and your fellow countrymen also make.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 27-Apr-2010 at 15:25
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2010 at 16:31
You must surely be careful whenever you try to nail down the location of Armenia, as well as Albania! If you look enough at maps drawn to present the location of these places at different times of the past, then you will see that they pop up and pop out like faries! You must understand that these maps are made for the benefit of both the historians who probably ordered them, and for our (the dunces) who would be shown them!

Hell, even England could be called Albania? Have you ever heard of the "White Cliffs of Dover?" Alban today and in the past meant some form of "white" or "pale?" Thus "white/pale, hills/cliffs or people? plus "land!" Please take your pick?

Or maybe you guys have a better idea?

Regards,
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote kalhur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2010 at 21:57
TGS
 Actually sending that map was not for political nationalist propaganda, just for showing the truth about the region.
 all these ultra-nationalist separatist claims needs to be answered. 
 when the pan-turanist have right to make propagandda, then as an iranian may also have right to show the geografical truth about thr region too. anyway .  pan-arabist CLAIME THE PERSIAN GULF  should become ARABIAN- GULF Tongue and pan- turanists claim to separate the craddle of our civilistation the AZAR APADAEGAN   home of  zaratostra from iran with military  help from nearby super power. it cause just a reaction to all these  invented histories from long ago.
the truth is all of azarbaijan and even armania have been a part of iran for more than 1000 years.
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  Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2010 at 02:44
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Originally posted by Emil_Diniyev


Caucasian Albans simple mengled with coming Turkic tribes. There was total of 24 tribes.

One of them still remaining in Azerbaijan, in a very small number.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udi_people

Modern Azerbaijan having direct link with Caucasian Albania and Caucasian Albans destroys the Armenia's baseless claims in region.

Indeed our roots are Turkic and we are Turkic nation, but we have also that history.


um... How can you, who call yourself an Azeri, claim that the Armenia's have no claim over your territory when at the same time you have claim over the original territory of Azerbaijan based on nothing?! The hypocrisy and contradictions amazes me...

Technically speaking, the Caucasian Albanians were Christian just as the Armenians were, wouldnt they technically have been closer to the Armenians rather than the invading Turkic armies?

I dont believe anyone should rewrite history or spread propaganda just for nationalist purposes, whether Armenian, Iranian, or Azeri (Republic of Azerbaijan)... but you cannot attack Armenians for making exactly the same absurd claims that you and your fellow countrymen also make.


Hey imbecile, perhaps you need to look at the location...






Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 28-Apr-2010 at 02:45
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  Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2010 at 02:48
Originally posted by opuslola



Hell, even England could be called Albania? Have you ever heard of the "White Cliffs of Dover?" Alban today and in the past meant some form of "white" or "pale?" Thus "white/pale, hills/cliffs or people? plus "land!" Please take your pick?

Or maybe you guys have a better idea?

Regards,


Caucasian Albania was called in that way because of the Caucasus Mountains in its territority with its snow peaks. I think Albania means "land of white mountains".





Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 28-Apr-2010 at 02:58
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2010 at 03:34
I would hazard a guess, by name similarity, that 'the Alps' also means 'white mountains'. No?
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2010 at 07:40
Dear SoD, Yes I would suggest you are correct!

"The English name Alps was taken via French from Latin Alpes, which may be ultimately cognate with Latin albus ("white"). The German Albe, Alpe or Alp (f., Old High German alpâ, plural alpûn), and the French Alpage or Alpe in the singular mean "alpine pasture", and only in the plural may also refer to the mountain range as a whole.[1]"

Thus Alban is probably a cognate of Alpin(e)!

It seems the "b" and "p" were oft interchanged or connected. And, as related to the "Alps" or "Alpine", the highest of them is Mt. Blanc, which also means fair or white, etc.

But, just what are we to make of present day Albania? Certainly it is not a land of snow capped peaks? But, like England and a lot of the coast of Greece, and surrounding lands, it has,I beleve, a white cliff coastline.

But this site takes us into a different area;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania_(name)

"Caucasian Albania
Caucasian Albania, also known as Alvank in Armenian,[1][2] Ardhan in Parthian, Arran in Persian,[3] and Al-Ran in Arabic,[1][3] was an ancient kingdom, which existed on the territory of present-day Republic of Azerbaijan and southern Dagestan. The Latin name Albānia denotes "mountainous land"[2] and is mentioned by Plinius the Elder and Aulus Gellius.[4] The native name for the country is unknown.[5].A city named Albanopolis[6][7] existed in the region of Armenia.

Albania (Balkans)
Albania as the name of a region in the Balkans attested in Medieval Latin. It may derive from an ethnonym, Albanoi, the name of an Illyrian tribe. Some linguists[8] propose a derivation from the Proto-Indo-European root *albho-[9], which meant 'white'; referring perhaps to the snow-capped mountains of Albania. Others[citation needed] think the source may be a non-Indo-European root *alb-, meaning "hill, mountain", also present in alp "mountain pasture".

Arbon
The toponym Arbon (Greek: Ἄρβων or Ἀρβών) [10] or Arbo[11] (Greek: Άρβωνα)[12] is mentioned by Polybius in the History of the World (second century BC). It was perhaps an island[13] in Liburnia or another location within Illyria. Stephanus of Byzantium centuries later, cites Polybius, saying it was a city in Illyria and gives an ethnic name for its inhabitants.

Albanoi
Albanoi first occurs in extant written sources in a work of Ptolemy dating back to 150 AD[14]. "Albanopolis of the Albanoi" appears on a map of Ptolemy, a place located in what is now North central Albania.

The Albanoi were Illyrians, but whether the modern Albanians have an ethnic continuity with the Illyrian Albanoi is disputed (see Origin of Albanians), and the ethnonym may have been transferred to an unrelated people. The Albanoi are also named[citation needed] on a Roman-era family epitaph at Scupi, which has been identified with the Zgërdhesh hill-fort near Kruja in northern Albania.

Albania
In the 12th to 13th centuries, Byzantine[15] writers use the words Arbanon (Greek: Άρβανον) for a principality in the region of Kruja.

We first learn of the ancestors of the modern Albanians in their native land as the Arbanites of Arbanon in Anna Comnena's account (Alexiad, IV) of the troubles in that region caused in the reign of her father Alexius I Comneus (1081-1118) by the Normans. In the History written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates was first to refer to the Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium.

Their descendants in Greece and Italy have been called in different ways with the passing of the years: Arbërór (in Arvanitic) or more commonly Arvanites (in Greek), Arbënuer, Arbënor, Arbëneshë, Arbëreshë.

Arbanon
Arbanon may have been the name of a district, rather than a particular place. The plain of the Mat has been suggested.

The mediaeval ethnonyms Arbanitai and Arbanios and the corresponding modern ethnonyms Arvanite, Arber, and Arbëreshë are considered by many linguists to have the same etymology as Albania, being derived from the stem Alb- by way of a rhotacism, Alb- → Arb-. Compare the rhotacism of alb- into arv- in the Neapolitan dialect of Italy.

Some linguists have argued that Arbanitai derives from the place, or river, called Arbanon, and Greek linguist Georgios Babiniotis states that Arvanite, Arber, and Arbëreshë do not derive from Albania or Albanoi.

However, the ethnonym Albanians may itself derive from Arbanon[16].

Albania (Scotland)
Alba, a Gaelic name for Scotland, may be related to the Greek name of Britain Albion, Latinized as Albania during the High Medieval period, and later passed into Middle English as Albany. Some recent scholarship has however connected it with one of the early names of Ireland, "Fodla", which is taken to mean (land of the) "going down" (of the Sun), in contrast to Alba which means (land of the) "rising" (of the Sun). This is consistent with one of the ancient emblems of Scotland consisting of a rising sun crossing the horizon, a symbol laden with much significance."

As you can well see, we are left with a surplus of possible places and meanings. It seems that only chronography supplies any explanation! That is Albania or Alvania, or Alpania, etc., could have existed in numerous places over the centuries we now give to history,and the mention of this name or word in ancient accounts is grounded upon the time period historians have derived as being the most correct for the sources!

In other words, it is a "subjective" determination, and not really "Objecive!" In other words our current view is merely a reduction of the information which has already been "subjectively" intrepreted and agreed upon by the "experts!"

Please look here http://www.asdatoz.com/Documents/Website-%20Objective%20vs%20subjective%20ltr.pdf to see a comparison of "Subjective V. Objective" information!

For a better understanding of these words perhaps you might well want to read this site?

http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/subjective_objective.html

Sometimes, the more we think we know about a subject, with a little effort, the more we find out (about the subject), that we only think we know a lot about it!

Seemingly we get more questions than real answers!

Regards,


Edited by opuslola - 28-Apr-2010 at 07:43
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2010 at 07:59
Originally posted by kalhur

TGS
 Actually sending that map was not for political nationalist propaganda, just for showing the truth about the region.


I know I was just saying in general.

Originally posted by kalhur


 all these ultra-nationalist separatist claims needs to be answered. 
 when the pan-turanist have right to make propagandda, then as an iranian may also have right to show the geografical truth about thr region too. anyway .  pan-arabist CLAIME THE PERSIAN GULF  should become ARABIAN- GULF Tongue and pan- turanists claim to separate the craddle of our civilistation the AZAR APADAEGAN   home of  zaratostra from iran with military  help from nearby super power. it cause just a reaction to all these  invented histories from long ago.
the truth is all of azarbaijan and even armania have been a part of iran for more than 1000 years.


I know, this is a bad cycle and it keeps going and going. It needs to stop somewhere though right? Whats the point of even trying to learn history and record it if people then come along and try to skew it to fit their own nationalistic propaganda?

Originally posted by Emil_Diniyev


Hey imbecile, perhaps you need to look at the location...



Hey imbecile, I'm telling you that you are contradicting yourself and being a hypocrite. LOL

What I'm saying is that you cannot blame the Armenians for propaganda and historical revisionism when you do it yourself in the first place (and actually it was pan Turkists that started this trend in the Middle East, Armenian nationalism and Pan Iranism were reactions to pan Turkism)


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 28-Apr-2010 at 08:00
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  Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2010 at 08:30
Kingdom of Caucasian Albania: Caucasian Albania was a territory that covered most of entire region of modern-day Azerbaijan Republic including some additional areas in neighboring countries. Note that Caucasian Albania had nothing to do with the modern state of Albania in the Balkans. According to legends, the kingdom of Caucasian Albania was founded in the 4th century BC by king Aran. There were 26 different tribes in Albania including Udi, Sodi, Gargar (Gagarians) and Gardman. Strabo describes Caucasian Albanians as tall, blonde-haired and gray-eyed. He characterizes them as brave and warlike. Albania was a fertile agrarian state with vast wheat fields, grape vineyards and fruit gardens. People worshiped the moon and various stars and planets. There was a Temple dedicated to the Moon located in the vicinity of Gabala in northern Azerbaijan, which was the ancient capital of Albania. Sometime during the 4th-5th century AD, Albania adopted Christianity. Today we know about Albania from ancient Greek and Roman historians such as Pliny (23 AD to 79 AD), Ptolemy (100 AD to 170 AD), Strabo (64/63 BC to 23 AD), Plutarch (46 AD-after 119 AD).
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  Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2010 at 08:38
"The ruins of the gates of Albanian capital Gabala in Azerbaijan"



Alban warrior helmet - Azerbaijan State Museum of History.



Types of money used in Caucasian Albania - Azerbaijan State Museum of History.




Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 28-Apr-2010 at 09:02
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