Assyrians, do not exict anymore!

Originally posted by Putty19 Originally posted by Xorto ah come on people. The Assyrians in Iraq and Lebanon are for sure Assyrians of ancient time. The Assyrians of ancient time where mostly from Halogroup J2 and a bit J1 what is definitly the same as todays Assyrians. Just many aramäic people from Turkey are for 90% assimilated Hurrians. This is a very wrong approach when it comes to DNA testing, Y-DNA haplogroups don't prove anything about recent ancestry (Recent being 4000 years ago up to now), it's only good for deep ancestry prior to civilizations. Mind you, if the people lived isolated it would be helpful, but where the Assyrians lived it was a melting pot, meaning the ancient Assyrians themselves were very mixed and had plenty of haplogroups. Y-DNA is useless when trying to find out which group you come from, specially if you come from the middle east, autosomal testing on the other hand is the useful test for recent ancestry.

I agree, even when the Iranian tribes came to Iran/Greater Iran they mixed with the natives and from the Medes to the Sassanids ancient iranians themselves were already genetically mixed population. 

I have not been active in this forum for years. So today I decided to visit this site which I used to enjoy so much. This thread is the first one I'm visiting and it makes me sick.

Either the thread opener is a troll or he's an idiot. Please close this thread.

Edited by Cappadocia - 04-Jan-2011 at 23:45

Iraqi Kurdish autosomal DNA (Xing et al.) is most similar to Iranian autosomal DNA (Behar et al.), according to the following Fst distances:

This thread is a good example of anti-intellectualism. I love the spelling of the thread title.

Originally posted by ideas Guys, am a kurd, from KRG..

That makes you an impartial, unbiased, objective scientist.

Originally posted by ideas and these assyrians spread alot of propaganda, so I believe its time for me to reply, and make all iranic people aware of those people..

Why all Iranic peoples? You guys have something against Assyrians?

Originally posted by ideas This is posted by a jewish friend of mine..

A Jew with an anti-Assyrian agenda? Sounds interesting. Please elaborate.

Originally posted by ideas Who are we !? We are the direct descendants of the ancient Assyrians!

It's true.

Originally posted by ideas We are Arameans ! "NYet"

This ain't true, however. The only reason why some Assyrians (mainly from the Syriac Orthodox Church) hold this false belief is because we speak a partially Aramaic derived language. It's not different from pseudo-Arabs from Iraq, Lebanon, Algeria etc. saying in all seriousness they're Arabs just because they speak quasi Arabic dialects.

Modern Assyrians do have some Aramaean ancestors, but it shouldn't be exaggerated either for linguistic reasons. Also, the modern Assyrian language has some Akkadian vocabulary:

http://www.aina.org/articles/rothbotmal.pdf

Originally posted by ideas We are Chaldeans ! "NYet"

This isn't true either. When an Assyrian group of the Nestorian rite reunited with the Roman Catholic Church, they were called Chaldeans by the Pope in order to distinguish them from other Assyrians.

Simply put: we Chaldean Catholics are not derived from the Chaldean dynasty that ruled the Neo-Babylon Empire. And there's no genetic evidence to support this claim either, since Chaldean Catholics show virtually identical genome profiles with other Assyrians. The same is true of Assyrians from the Syriac Orthodox Church. And population genetics do not lie.

Originally posted by ideas We are Maronites ! "NYet"

The Assyrian movement isn't all too strong amongst Maronites (which is a religious group with roots in Lebanon). Some Maronites do actually have Assyrian ancestry (at least distant ancestry from recent Assyrian converts to the Maronite rite), but Maronites are genetically a Levantine population, and as such, they are different from Assyrians. Not radically different, but different.

Originally posted by ideas Who are those people !?

North Mesopotamians, originally of proto-Semitic stock from Anatolia, whose ancestors worshiped Ashur, spoke Akkadian, ruled the Fertile Crescent and later shifted to the Aramaic language and converted to Christianity.

Originally posted by ideas Why won't we ask one of them "Assyrians", Pro. John Joseph, who they are! Professor John Joseph is a much respected historian and an authority on the mission activities of the Western missionaries among the East- Aramean Nestorians of Urmia, Irak and Hakkaria. John Joseph is amongst others the writer of the book “The Modern Assyrians of the Middle-East, Encounters with the Western Christian Missions, Archaeological & Colonial Powers” The book of Joseph contains overwhelming information regarding the invention of the names “Chaldeans” by the Catholics and “Assyrians” by the Anglicans. For everybody to understand these myths, should read the book of John Joseph. Here is the link to the book: http://books.google.co.il/books?id=79wj2hj4wKUC&lpg=PA26&ots=vuE6A8QJxL&dq=Tatian%20assyrian&pg=PA26#v=onepage&q=Tatian%20assyrian&f=false But then John Joseph can be biased as many present-day scholars are!

John Joseph doesn't know what he's talking about, and Iranologist Richard Nelson Frye completely crushed his nonsensical arguments:

http://www.jaas.org/edocs/v11n2/frye.pdf
http://www.jaas.org/edocs/v13n1/frye.pdf

And Frye was empirically verified by Robert Rollinger:

http://www.aina.org/articles/ttaasa.pdf

Originally posted by ideas Actually this is funny that we have to ask historians who are them "Assyrians". Don't people say who they are ? Arabs say they're Arabs. Kurds say they're Kurds, etc.

All genetic evidence proves that we are neither Arabs nor Kurds:

http://linearpopulationmodel.blogspot.com/2010/11/assyrians.html
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/11/assyrians-finns-in-a-worldwide-genetic-context/

We have too much genetic distance from Arabs, so we're not Arabs. Also Kurds are genetically an eastern population, which can be seen on a global PCA plot where Kurds are situated between Russians and Pakis, whereas Assyrians are in between Italians and Palestinians, and ethnic Arabs (not pseudo-Arabs, but ethnic Arabs) are found much further south.

Originally posted by ideas But then "Modern Assyrian" say that they are Assyrians and Arameans and Chaldeans and Maronites. This is too much, isn't it !?

Some anti-intellectual Assyrians are persuaded by nonsense, and you're taking advantage of that. Rest assured, we are Assyrians, no more, no less.

Originally posted by ideas Perhaps we can ask their forefathers 170 years ago, at the very same time when Kurds called themselves Kurds and Jews called themselves Jews, who they are. What a surprise, 170 years ago, the forefathers of those who proud themselves in being the descendants of the ancient Assyrians, had claimed that they are the descendants of the Ten Lost Tribe of Israel. It's only 170 years ago. This is not enough time to create a new people. Not even if you add 1000 years to it. What is going on. Who are those people? What they want?

In the 17th century, Catholic nuns from the Carmelite order visited Iran and described Jacobites (i.e., Syriac Orthodox Christians) as Assyrians. So that's all we need to refute your nonsense.

Originally posted by ideas Please, read the book free on-line I provide a link for below, and get a real picture of "Modern Assyrians" and the misguided path they have taken. This is not a history book, but a book written by a Christian missionary who had spend over five years among them. No one can say that Ashael Grant, the Christian missionary is a biased historian twisting and distorting the truth. http://books.google.co.il/books?id=upY2AAAAMAAJ&dq=Ashael+Grant&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=7rwhW1ARQu&sig=ftiZdEV60m1V5b1Dzg-IAvXFnI0&hl=iw&ei=UesiS5CxItKb_AatoLWyCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=nominal&f=false

This book is not an academic book and it's not based on peer-review or empirically verified methods.

Originally posted by EliasAlucard   Originally posted by ideas Who are we !? We are the direct descendants of the ancient Assyrians! It's true.

Ya see, that is the most enjoyable thing in talking to them smart Assyrian fellas. They come in and start spreading their toxic bullcrap all around, easily denying Kurds, their culture, their history, their ethnicity....etc yet start whining and shouting like a sissy whenever a Kurd says something negative about them....!!!

Originally posted by EliasAlucard   Modern Assyrians do have some Aramaean ancestors, but it shouldn't be exaggerated either for linguistic reasons. Also, the modern Assyrian language has some Akkadian vocabulary: http://www.aina.org/articles/rothbotmal.pdf

Wow, getting info from aina..!? What's next...! Posting articles by the un-biased, moderate and humble Fred Aprim...!?

Originally posted by EliasAlucard   Simply put: we Chaldean Catholics are not derived from the Chaldean dynasty that ruled the Neo-Babylon Empire. And there's no genetic evidence to support this claim either, since Chaldean Catholics show virtually identical genome profiles with other Assyrians. The same is true of Assyrians from the Syriac Orthodox Church. And population genetics do not lie.

What is even more amusing is when Assyrians start fighting against each other, each one starts to refute the claims of the other; Assyrians of Chaldeans, Syriacs of Assyrians, Catholics of Orthodox...etc. My advice, try to solve your internal issues before you start your Kurdish-bashing campaigns.

Originally posted by EliasAlucard You do have a problem with that, actually. It's a political problem, because Kurdish political motives conflict with Assyrian political goals, namely: territory. You Kurds are intruding on Assyrian land, and that's why you're trying to deny the existence of the Assyrian nation.

Speaking on a personal level, I never did deny Assyrians, and Kurdish political stance is just the same, and by your standards every people have "intruded" your land, correct me if I'm wrong, but half of Mars belong to the Assyrians as well, Ja...?
It is such a shame that you people are so unappreciative, Sunni Arabs butcher your people in a church and Kurds give asylum to over a thousand Christian families (over 6000-7000 individuals), Ankawa is one of the most modern neighborhoods in Hawler thanks to the KRG, Assyrian language is official in the Assyrian areas and there are schools and TV channels for these folks. Is that enough? I would say no it is not, but for a start it is good enough for you people to start appreciating Kurds a bit more, and if you don't, you are always more than welcome to raise the Iraqi falg as you seem to be so fond of and run back to your Arabic masters whom also seem to have a habit of butchering you....

Originally posted by EliasAlucard Kurds and their documented ancestors, however, is very scarce and vague. What we do know from genetic tests is that Kurds are genetically close to Persians. But that doesn't necessarily imply Kurds are descended from the Medes; we do know for a fact that Kurds have some Assyrian ancestry, for example, which can be verified by haplogroups and autosomal DNA.

BINGO...!!! You said what was needed to prove you are no more than a racist, nationalist troll coming here criticizing others when they question your identity whilst you yourself so wholeheartedly denied the very roots of the Kurds. Kurds have Assyrian ancestry...!? I mean an Iranic Language paired with an Iranic ethnicity coupled with the Hurrian ancestry now all of a sudden turned to Semitic....!! Hallelujah...

Originally posted by EliasAlucard    A more interesting question is why Kurds love to troll Assyrians and deny our existence? I already know the answer, but have you Kurds ever questioned yourselves on that one?

Firstly this is not a troll, the guy comes and discusses the issue, if you have some reliable sources to prove him wrong please provide them. Secondly, I highly believe that all this guy says is a reaction to what some Assyrians, the likes of you, say and do about Kurds including denying their history, culture, ethnicity, and most importantly, country, in the forums, on T.V and every other places, and simply the guy seems to have gotten fed up with all the nonsense that those western Assyrians say.

And by all I have said, I don't mean Assyrians as a whole, cause in every nation there are enough reasonable men to counter ignorant ones, and I'm sure that Assyrians are a bright nation and have many good, open-minded and moderate people.

And allow me to give a brief conclusion, I really don't care whether the Kurds or Assyrians are more ancient as it serves no purpose, what's known is that both are indigenous people of their respective lands, I don't care who their ancestors were, for all I care they could be the product of the mating between Gandalf and Xena, things should be looked at from a realistic point of view, and the reality is, both Kurds and Assyrians are getting persecuted on a daily basis, and what's even more unfortunate is that instead of those endangered species getting united to counter the forces of evil on them, they have started this amateurish war of words against each other which is based on nothing but ignorance and blind hatred. I truly hope their visions get clearer and see things for what they are and proceed together in their quest for liberation.

Edited by New Corduene - 27-Dec-2010 at 03:19

This book claims "Assyrian" is a collective term for Iraqi Christian sects, including the Chaldeans, Nestorians and Aramaens
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=79wj2hj4wKUC&lpg=PP1&ots=vvD8DbQNFO&dq=assyrians%20kurds&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false