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Imperialism

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Poll Question: Is Imperialism more good than bad or more bad than good?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
5 [13.89%]
25 [69.44%]
3 [8.33%]
1 [2.78%]
2 [5.56%]
0 [0.00%]
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The Golden Phallanx View Drop Down
Knight
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  Quote The Golden Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Imperialism
    Posted: 18-May-2005 at 13:30

[Herodotus=quote]However you cannot seriously expect to preempt every crisis. Most of the time, you wont even be aware that there is a crisis until the dictator is already in power, or the nukes have already been built. [/quote]

The crisis always begins at home. The moment we have poor foreign policy, (and I have defined proper foreign policy above) is the moment such a dictator will arise. We can be aware a crisis is coming when our foreign politics have turned to steal, if ever it is a surprise there is a crisis there is something seriously wrong with what is said to be our foreign policy and what it actually is. If things are done properly, these situations should be foreseeable.

You have made a good point with japan. My only argument is the Japanese imperialistic crisis was also forseeable except all western powers at the time had the same policy (more or less) which doesn't help so it is evident they wouldn't have reacted in a way I'd support. If Japan had never been taunted by European powers, so had never been threatened by them,  they would never have been inspired to become a super power of the same style because in the end, the true reason the Japanese empire ever began was to defend themselves and rival the west. It is therefore the fault of the European expantionist policy which caused this, so in the end, poor foreign policy. Do you see what I'm saying?

 

We are all a result of what we have lived. Culture, attitude, perspective. For everything we do, there is a reason. There is no true evil, only the absence of proper communication.
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  Quote Herodotus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2005 at 19:42
I understand your point, and rivalry with the West certainly was a factor in the rise of Japanese imperialism, but the need for resources and lebensraum were even greater determinatants of Japans' foreign policy. Those inherant problems were not caused, nor could they be solved, by western actions. Japan was going to expand, and no degree of humanitarianism could have stopped her.
"Dieu est un comdien jouant une assistance trop effraye de rire."
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
-Francois Marie Arouet, Voltaire

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  Quote The Golden Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2005 at 22:13

Lebensraum was certainly an issue I'll give you that, but isn't the whole point of it is to become a stronger and more ressourceful nation? In essence, a stronger and more ressourceful nation in order to rival the west? Japan had never been forced to acquire this lebensraum before European and American imperialism forced itself upon Japan's doorstep. Lebensraum was just an excuse justifying Japan's agression when in fact it was triggered by the west. The population had always been increasing; and until that point, the Japanese were content to remain on Japan.

Japan's history reflects the reaction all nations would have taken had they the chance to face european imperialism; or as I'll put it, Europe's foreign policy. Also, have you ever read any record of Japanese settling on the continent? They weren't just there for breathing room, they were there to conquer before being conquered.

This is the way I interpret what happenned. Now my friend, I do not believe we can fully declare one policy "right" over the other, but at least give me that humanitarian aid should always be the first option before military action, and as I still see it, the principle one.

It must however be done right. A 1 month warning with 1% the aid a people needs to the completly wrong people in the country (i.e to the rich instead of the poor) is not the chance I'm talking about. It is obvious that in a situation like this, where no results are achieved, the public  will be favourable to the military out of having the wrong conception fo what truly happenned. They would believe a real humanitarian effort was commenced and that it failed, when in fact the aid was never there.

1- Enough time.

2- Enough aid.

3- to the right people.

4- Properly publicitized.

Tell me, have I at least slightly opened your conservative eyes to other options? 

We are all a result of what we have lived. Culture, attitude, perspective. For everything we do, there is a reason. There is no true evil, only the absence of proper communication.
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  Quote Herodotus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 18:53
Originally posted by The Golden Phallanx

Lebensraum was certainly an issue I'll give you that, but isn't the whole point of it is to become a stronger and more ressourceful nation? In essence, a stronger and more ressourceful nation in order to rival the west? Japan had never been forced to acquire this lebensraum before European and American imperialism forced itself upon Japan's doorstep. Lebensraum was just an excuse justifying Japan's agression when in fact it was triggered by the west. The population had always been increasing; and until that point, the Japanese were content to remain on Japan.

Japan's history reflects the reaction all nations would have taken had they the chance to face european imperialism; or as I'll put it, Europe's foreign policy. Also, have you ever read any record of Japanese settling on the continent? They weren't just there for breathing room, they were there to conquer before being conquered.

The Japanese population had, of course, been perpetually expanding for millenia, but the rate of expansion drastically increased during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The purpose of gaining lebensraum was not to increase Japans' international power, or check that of the Europeans: there was no goal other than solving the, otherwise unstoppable, self-defeating process of overpopulation.

Originally posted by The Golden Phallanx

This is the way I interpret what happenned. Now my friend, I do not believe we can fully declare one policy "right" over the other, but at least give me that humanitarian aid should always be the first option before military action, and as I still see it, the principle one.

It must however be done right. A 1 month warning with 1% the aid a people needs to the completly wrong people in the country (i.e to the rich instead of the poor) is not the chance I'm talking about. It is obvious that in a situation like this, where no results are achieved, the public  will be favourable to the military out of having the wrong conception fo what truly happenned. They would believe a real humanitarian effort was commenced and that it failed, when in fact the aid was never there.

1- Enough time.

2- Enough aid.

3- to the right people.

4- Properly publicitized.

Tell me, have I at least slightly opened your conservative eyes to other options? 

I have never contested the notion that humanitarian aid is a viable facet of foreign policy. My sole point is that in some, and in fact most, international crises the use of force, or threat thereof, is absolutely neccessary. My argument throughout the thread has been that imperialistic policies are quite justified, and often very neccesary and effective. Have you seen the light of realpolitik?

"Dieu est un comdien jouant une assistance trop effraye de rire."
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
-Francois Marie Arouet, Voltaire

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  Quote The Golden Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 23:36
Originally posted by Herodotus

Originally posted by The Golden Phallanx

Lebensraum was certainly an issue I'll give you that, but isn't the whole point of it is to become a stronger and more ressourceful nation? In essence, a stronger and more ressourceful nation in order to rival the west? Japan had never been forced to acquire this lebensraum before European and American imperialism forced itself upon Japan's doorstep. Lebensraum was just an excuse justifying Japan's agression when in fact it was triggered by the west. The population had always been increasing; and until that point, the Japanese were content to remain on Japan.

Japan's history reflects the reaction all nations would have taken had they the chance to face european imperialism; or as I'll put it, Europe's foreign policy. Also, have you ever read any record of Japanese settling on the continent? They weren't just there for breathing room, they were there to conquer before being conquered.

The Japanese population had, of course, been perpetually expanding for millenia, but the rate of expansion drastically increased during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The purpose of gaining lebensraum was not to increase Japans' international power, or check that of the Europeans: there was no goal other than solving the, otherwise unstoppable, self-defeating process of overpopulation.

What do you mean; "the purpose of lebensraum is not to increase international power"???? So what do you call Nazi expansion into Russia? That is where the original term of lebensraum derieves, and the Nazies weren't just there to solve over crowding in Germany, they were there to create a greater Deutscher Reich; which is by all means the most international power building action which can be taken. The Nazies also justified their assault for lebensraum when it is clearly evident they also wanted to become a more powerful nation in the process and believed they had the right to dominate over many peoples. Lebensraum does not include tyrannic policy towards others in any case, and so one cannot mix the two. Why then did the Japanese massacre millions of innocent chinese civilians?

The true purpose of Japanese military expansion was to counter that of Europe in order to remain independant, thus it was for greater international power. Lebensraum is simply a means to achieve this. You still haven't answered my question; can you find any documents which indicate Japanese settling on the mainland?

Originally posted by Herodotus

Originally posted by The Golden Phallanx

This is the way I interpret what happenned. Now my friend, I do not believe we can fully declare one policy "right" over the other, but at least give me that humanitarian aid should always be the first option before military action, and as I still see it, the principle one.

It must however be done right. A 1 month warning with 1% the aid a people needs to the completly wrong people in the country (i.e to the rich instead of the poor) is not the chance I'm talking about. It is obvious that in a situation like this, where no results are achieved, the public  will be favourable to the military out of having the wrong conception fo what truly happenned. They would believe a real humanitarian effort was commenced and that it failed, when in fact the aid was never there.

1- Enough time.

2- Enough aid.

3- to the right people.

4- Properly publicitized.

Tell me, have I at least slightly opened your conservative eyes to other options? 

I have never contested the notion that humanitarian aid is a viable facet of foreign policy. My sole point is that in some, and in fact most, international crises the use of force, or threat thereof, is absolutely neccessary. My argument throughout the thread has been that imperialistic policies are quite justified, and often very neccesary and effective. Have you seen the light of realpolitik?

Like so many before you, you have completly forgotten my explanations of crisis solving before they even arise. With that attitude you have just repeated to me, there always will be a crisis. I don't think you've understood anything I've said. Yes I am familiar with realpolitik;  I don't see the point you're trying to make. Secret alliances and intricate politics, yes? What with it? 

And imperialism is justifiable for what? Necessary for what? Remain in the upper class? Steal all richs for yourself? Murder all those who work for themselves and not uniquely you?

Dude, that's just wrong. Even if you don't have a heart, having a friendly foreign policy is more practical in the sense that military costs are low and many nations are willing to work with you and even help you if the need ever arose. Help meaning military support and more commonly on the day-to-day basis; economic deals and trade agreements. I believe this policy to be more effective and more acceptable to anyone who was taught morals as a child.



Edited by The Golden Phallanx
We are all a result of what we have lived. Culture, attitude, perspective. For everything we do, there is a reason. There is no true evil, only the absence of proper communication.
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  Quote The Golden Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 23:45

Herodotus do you have a msn chat line address? I would very much enjoy having a more realtime conversation with you. (Quicker interaction of ideas.)

We are all a result of what we have lived. Culture, attitude, perspective. For everything we do, there is a reason. There is no true evil, only the absence of proper communication.
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