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Imperialism

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Poll Question: Is Imperialism more good than bad or more bad than good?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
5 [13.89%]
25 [69.44%]
3 [8.33%]
1 [2.78%]
2 [5.56%]
0 [0.00%]
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Imperialism
    Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 12:14
I have a history project that I have to write about whether imperialism is more good than bad or more bad than good. i would like any thoughts you have on this subject. thank you
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 12:58
Ugh, another one. Whilst i understand you are eager to discuss this topic, starting three threads on it isn't really kosher.

I'm gonna move this to the Modern History forum, and leave it open, with a link from here naturaly.


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  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 13:13
There are four Cywr
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 13:22
Ugh, two new users, both joined today, same IP, both have the same project...........
Btw, thanks for pointing that out.


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  Quote The Golden Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 18:20

I can't say it's all bad but it's definitely more bad than good...It also depends on what you consider "good" and "bad" seeing that all depends on your perspective but in mine it's more bad than good.

...good ol' repetition....good night lads

We are all a result of what we have lived. Culture, attitude, perspective. For everything we do, there is a reason. There is no true evil, only the absence of proper communication.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 19:29
oh sorry guys. im sorry i thought everyone just looked in one section of this site cause its a huge site. so i put it up in several sections hoping to get many answers to it. sorry about that
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 19:34

I think its slightly more good than bad, its mostly bad from a political standpoint, but from a scientific and cultural one it often makes more good than bad.  Obviously it is obsolete now but back in the day one of the few ways to facilitate large amounts of safe trade and knowledge echanging is through integrating neighbors econimically or through force.

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I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 21:43
I love doing other people's homework; you are such a lucky student.

There are a few arguments. Pick the one that you feel more comfortable passing as your own opinion.

For imperialism:

Imperialism brought Western Civilization to the conquered countries. This means that they brought the ideals and institutions of democracy, technical advances, and industrialism to these countries. Imperialism allows for the more or less efficient use of natural resources, which are not well utilized by the original countries.

The emergence of democratic nations in Asia, Africa, and Latin America is proof of how good it was for these countries.

Against:

Imperialism was the exploitation of powerful countries over weaker ones. The imperialist country often held patronizing or racist views of people from the satellite countries. They began practices and institutions that have put these countries in a cultural and economic disadvantage; for example, forcing the whole economy of a nation into a single sector, like sugar, copper, or oil.

The economic failures and political chaos of former colonies is proof of how negative imperialism has been for these countries.

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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 23:08

can you do my homework sometimes too? haha

just kidding.



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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 23:12

well let me point out my opinion.

it really has to depend on who's perspective you are talking about.

imperialism is bad when you are a target of imperialist expansion. but if you are to export your imperialist power, it is probably good to you.

morally, it is bad tho.

when japan invaded asia during ww2, we as targets of imperialism all agree to that it was bad and morally incorrect. on the other hand, we take pride of the glorous tang and han dynasties when japan, korea, central asian countries and a various other countries had to send tributes to us and were even under our rules (such as the turks in centrla asia). we think it was good.

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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 23:32

I would say more good than bad in some instances, like the large, safe, and prosperous Roman and Chinese empires, but also more bad than good in instances like the Nazi and Soviet empires.

For that reason, I voted neutral

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  Quote chessrook1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2005 at 01:20
It happens. It can be either good or bad as other stated examples of like prosperous Roman, Byzantine, and Chinese Empires and Dynasties and it can be bad like the Third Reich and Soviet Empire. Imperialism will happen if the other guy has the massive armies, great generals, resources to support those armies and the rest of his people, and a good political structure like Rome and China. If youre a weak country, youre going to be eaten and gobbled up or exploited like whats happening in most 3rd world countries. Its survival of the fittest. Im being realistic when I say that.

Nations have passed away and left no trace, and history gives the naked cause of it; one simple reason in all cases; they fell because their people were not fit.-Rudyard Kipling



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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2005 at 02:03
It made Scotland and Wales everything they are today.
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2005 at 09:57
Originally posted by coolstorm

can you do my homework sometimes too? haha


just kidding.



Sure, I can help giving you ideas. You will have to do all the tedious work though; my help only extends to the point where the task becomes boring

Besides, you seem to have plenty ideas of your own; tragically, you don't need my services.
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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2005 at 11:53

The New Imperialism Age that took place between 1875-1914 has had an important part in the formation of today's European Identity...

The worst legacy left by Belgium in Congo.

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2005 at 03:42
I agree, the Belgians in the Congo are the example of the worst of imperialism, however I do not think 19th and 20th century imperialism is any different from ancient, classical, or medieval imperilaism, same thing, different technologies.
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2005 at 04:13
Congo Free State is what happens when you let one distant indifferent individual run a bunch of countries bunged together as a company. If ever there was a coperate run state, it was then.
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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2005 at 04:34
Todays Brussels owe a lot to the diamonds of Congo
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2005 at 04:43
Brussels was always the biggest and one of the richest cities in Belgium, right back in the days of when it was the gathering place of the general estates.
Antwerp is the diamond capital of Belgium, and even that is an old wealthy merchant centre, going back to the days of the Hansa. Its not so simply.
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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2005 at 04:51
''Brussels would have been a very different city without its Congo connection''
 
Belgian wealth squeezed from Congo
Brussels
Brussels grew rich from its African colony
By Colin Blane in Brussels

In the mystery over what happened to DR Congo's leader, Laurent Kabila, many of the early facts were first confirmed by the Belgian Government.


Brussels would have been a very different city without its Congo connection

The Belgian foreign minister broke the news that Mr Kabila had been shot, and the prime minister was quick to announce he would be sending troops to the region, although not to DR Congo itself.

Belgium was, of course, the colonial power in Congo until 1960, and links between the two countries remain strong. Each has helped shape the other.

But while Belgium prospered from its African connection, Congo's story has been one of chaos and decline.

Rich rewards

Belgium's capital, Brussels, would have been a very different city without its Congo connection. There is a Congo flavour in music and food and Congo exiles can be found plotting in Brussels' bars and hotels - some still referring to their homeland by its former name, Zaire.

Brussels shopping arcade
A far cry from DR Congo's conflict
But it is the wealth that Belgium extracted from colonial Africa which changed the face of the modern-day capital.

Two of Brussels' most elegant thoroughfares, Avenue Louise and Avenue Terveuren were laid out with money raised from Belgium's adventures in the Congo basin, and many of the city's most grandiose buildings were funded from the proceeds of rubber, timber and ivory.

Even the district largely rebuilt with European Union offices is dominated by an imperial Arc de Triomphe - a rival to the one in Paris. Bureaucrats and politicians see it every day as they whizz round the Schuman roundabout. It is an eye-catching centrepiece for an elegant park.

But once again, the money to pay for this symbol of grandeur was squeezed from the Congo.

African prize

More than in any other of the European colonial powers, one man was responsible for Belgium's grip on a vast chunk of central Africa: Leopold II.


Even by the standards of the day, Leopold's attitude to his colony was ruthless and exploitative

He outfoxed his European competitors, pretending to set up an international society to supervise the Congo basin, before taking over - as his own private holding - territory 80 times the size of Belgium.

Leopold - as king of a small, newly-formed European country - told his advisers that Belgium must have an empire and by 1885, he had one.

DR Congo soldiers
DR Congo is gripped by civil war
"I don't want to miss the chance of getting us a slice of this magnificent African cake," he said in a letter to one of his ambassadors.

And that was how he viewed the raw materials and the people of the Congo - as a prize to be consumed. But even by the standards of the day, Leopold's attitude to his colony was ruthless and exploitative.

The scandal which eventually shamed the Belgian Government to bring to an end Leopold's 20 years of despoiling the Congo was the discovery that his agents had been using forced labour to harvest rubber - a highly sought-after commodity at the time. Villages which resisted paying the rubber-tax were punished.

Accounts of atrocities reached London and Brussels - including one which described how Leopold's enforcers had collected baskets of severed hands to prove they had been doing their work.

History repeats

In the end, Leopold's own ministers took his private fiefdom from him and his vast territories became the Belgian Congo - to distinguish them from the French colony on the other side of the Congo River. But by the time Leopold was stopped, the damage was done.


Perhaps Congo is too big a country to be governed as a single state

His personal fortune was enormous. For the millions of dollars he took from the Congo - without ever visiting Africa himself - his rule destroyed thousands of villages and left an estimated three million people dead.

In Brussels, Leopold left his mark in stone - in monuments and buildings. But in Congo his influence was much more malign. The years of terror broke down traditional communities and created a long-lasting pattern of plunder.

Laurent Kabila
Laurent Kabila promised elections that were never held
The inheritor of Leopold's methods nearly a century later was President Mobutu. I met him as his powers were failing, but in many ways he had matched the old king for avarice. Zaire - as Mobutu named Congo - could have been Africa's wealthiest country with rich reserves of copper, diamonds, cobalt and gold. But when I went to see Mr Mobutu he was deep in crisis.

Africa's most rapacious modern leader had failed to pay his soldiers and there had been a spasm of rioting and looting. From the far bank of the Zaire River, looking across Stanley Pool, Kinshasa seemed almost like a normal city, the glass of its tall tower blocks reflecting the evening sun.

Up close, though, Kinshasa's pretensions were unravelling. Young men in combat trousers stood by the roadside selling looted goods - tennis rackets, a toilet bowl, a fish tank. Under Mr Mobutu, as under King Leopold, theft was becoming part of the mainstream economy.

Mr Mobutu invited journalists to witness him swearing in a new batch of ministers, a new collection of snouts at his government's trough.

With his leopardskin hat and his throne, the old manipulator still looked the part, but in a country the size of western Europe he was losing control. Others were looting the economy on an extravagant scale - even the embassy buildings in Japan were said to have been stolen.

Perhaps Congo is too big a country to be governed as a single state. Mr Mobutu held it together while there were assets to spread around, but his successor Laurent Kabila had a more torrid time right from the start.

For the last three years, six countries and at least three rebel groups have been at war, squabbling over Congo's remaining mineral wealth, diamonds and oil.

Curiously, Laurent Kabila did come to Brussels to meet the present Belgian King, but the days of European intervention in Congo's affairs are over.

King Leopold and his European rivals created the conditions for chaos in Congo a century ago, the most the former colonial powers will do now is withdraw their nationals and stand well back.

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