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Why Muslims are a dangerous people?!

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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why Muslims are a dangerous people?!
    Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 17:06
Athena - to understand Puritans, you have to read about Cromwell an his reign of terror in England. 
"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul."
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 17:12
Dear Cyrus, I just thought I post the entire news story;

"OTTAWA — Iran is warning its citizens not to come to Canada out of fear of widespread Islamophobia sweeping the country.

A story posted on the website of the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting news agency states the foreign ministry in Iran issued the warning earlier this week. The agency claims crime rates in Canada have soared recently and Iranian nationals may fall victim to this new crime spree.

The government of Iran is warning its citizens to take extra precautions if they visit Canada.

The Iranian government also claims Muslims in Canada are being denied “social and political rights” and police are not following up on complaints filed by Iranians in this country.

In addition to warning citizens to stay away from Canada, the government of Iran also recently warned its people to stay away from France, also citing Islamophobia there."

Yes, yes! Canada the homeland of extreem Islamophobia! Yes, yes, I can see it from those terrible Democrat Socialists who run the nation! Yes, they are haters if I ever saw one! Yes, haters all! The especially hate the USA! Yes, indeed! The have become the entry point for millions of illegal immigrants over the last 20 or more years, who mostly end up in the USA!

This terrible nation hates the USA so much that they have harbored criminals from the USA for the last 40 years or so! Yes, yes! They hate the USA and Iran! Yes! Yes!

Well now we see just how stupid some people can be! Canada is perhaps the most safe nation on the planet, unless one plays Ice Hockey!



thanks for the report!
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 19:07
Originally posted by cavalry4ever

Athena - to understand Puritans, you have to read about Cromwell an his reign of terror in England. 
 
This information sounds interesting, but it was not my intent to understand Puritans.  It is my intent to understand power and how it changes from one generation to the next. 
 
Human organizations are like other living organisms that go through different stages of development. We can think of them as giant ameba, consuming whatever they can consume and excreting what they can not consume.  They grow and they shrink and they have defensive behaviors.  If they do not successfully manage the threat to them, they die.   Islam has been in decline for many years, and has not kep pace with the west.  Clearly Islamic countries are threatened right now, and the last thing I would do is send in Christian misionaries, or bring in booze and other precieved threats.   The more threatened Muslims feel the worse things will be.  If I let my dog shit in my neighbors yard and gave his children drugs, he might not be so nice to me, and even if he liked playing cards, he would not want to social with me.   My view of politics is very simplist good or bad manners. 
 
 I think we should distingish a difference between behaviors done when a human organization is expanding its power, and its behaviors when it feels threatened.   In both circumstances it may commit acts of war, but obviously the motive is different.   Hum, aren't there some military geniuses who had something to say about this?  
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 19:19
I still think that looking at Puritans in England would fit you purpose. It is an ultimate story of corrupting influence of absolute power on a religious sect. It also may provide insight on Iranian Ayatollahs and why they will fail an hopefully die before angry mob tears them into pieces.
"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul."
Mark Twain
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 19:33
I actually think that Cromwell and his short venture left a good side to England and to religion in general!

He made people smarter!

And, as regards his "reign of terror" you would not have been terrified unless you were a "Papist!", or something very similar!

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 18-Nov-2010 at 19:37
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 19:47
Yes, he did make nation smarter. I don't think the executed king was papist and 9 years of terror was not that short.
"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul."
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 20:35
C4E, maybe you miss read my post above, where I said quite clearly "or something similar", thus please read this site;

http://www.who2.com/charlesi.html

Whereby you can read these words;

"Charles was married to Henrietta Maria of France, a Roman Catholic whose influence on the king was not welcomed by the increasingly Puritan populace... The king was High Anglican..."

On that point I rest my case!

And nine years in the history of England is merely a pimple!
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2010 at 12:00
Okay, you two are arguing the principle I was wanting to get at.    And when the Puritans came to the New Land they made enemies of natives, unlike the Quakes who made friends with the natives.  Both these groups used the bible, but they interpreted it differently. Puristians like Muslims focused on purity.  Quakers focused on Jesus and friendship.  Puritans share more in common with Muslims than Quakers.   Actually Cyrus, there is more agreement between Muslims and Christians, than there is between Christians and Christians. 
 
 Our Constitution makes freedom of speech and freedom of religion and separation of church and state the law, in part because we have had all the experiences that are making Islam a problem today, the fighting against each other, religious persectution and war.  What Christians have done to Jews even before WWII is terrible!   Muslims are doing nothing new, and Christians are not better than Muslims.
 
I have been told Islam can't tolerate the separation of church and state  that caracterizes Christian countries.    Well neither could Christians, unitl there was literacy in Greek and Roman classics and enough commerce and wealth to make it impossible to prevent our freedom and liberty.  Then the people realized democracy is better than rule by kings.  However, even today, plenty of Christians are opposed to secular education and secular government.  Some of them have isolated themselves in communities they control.  Others home school their children, to protect them from the secular world.  Christians are as opposed to secularism as Muslims, but they do not have control, and dare I say, this lost control is what Muslims fear, so they fight.  AM I SAYING THIS WELL? 
 
CHRISTIANS SHARE MORE IN COMMON WITH MUSLIMS THAN ONE CHRISTIAN GROUP SHARES IN COMMON WITH ANOTHER CHRISTIAN GROUP.  WE JUST STOPPED KILLING EACHOTHER BECAUSE WE LIVE UNDER A SECULAR CONSTITUTION WITH A SECULAR GOVERNMENT THAT DOESN'T ALLOW US TO KILL EACHOTHER AS WE DID IN OUR PAST.    IT IS NOT CHRISTIANITY THAT GAVE US PEACE.  IT IS DEMOCRACY AND OUR SECULAR GOVERNMENT THAT, GAVE US PEACE.
 
Cyrus, I objected to your thread because it was promoting a falsehood than Christians are better the Muslims.  I don't think this how you meant it, but I thought you were from the US and that is how all the Christians in the US would see it.  I believe the majority of voting US citizens would have voted Bush out of office for invading Iraq, if Bush had not mobilized the Christian Right to vote him in office.  He did this by making it a vote on things like abortion and opposition to homosexuals, you know those things that regulate our private lives and should not involve government in our lives.  These are not the political things that really matter, compared to invading a country that was not mobilized for war against the US, and whose people were not our enemy, but religious people think religion not politics, and they like to believe their leader is doing the will of God, and they are easily malnipulated, regardless of if they are Muslim or Christian. 
 
The correction is secular government and secular education, with freedom of religion and speech made law.   Humanity must promote rational thinking and the highest morality, without relgion.   We most vote rationally, not with religion that is not good for worldly affair.  This does not mean without God.  A notion of God is important, but we have to keep in mind we can not know this God and His will.  It is our powers of reason and democracy that brings us to peace,  and manages our conflicts peacefully, and raises our human potential, not religion. 
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2010 at 12:37
What is interesting it was Muslim philosopher Averroes that came up with the idea of separation of church and state.
"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul."
Mark Twain
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2010 at 15:13
I would use the easy method to explain most of the above, that is it could be suggested and considered that the old maxim; "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely!"

Certainly the connection of Church and State, set the stage for "power", and the "corruption" of that power led to the assumption of "absolute power", when both the Church and the State were "one!"

Thus when a "king" was given his position via the "grace of God" or rather by "God's representative" on the Earth, then that king could certainly feel that he must have absolute power! After all "God" or at least his representative had actually placed the crown of domain upon him!

It seems that problems arose once these God annointed Kings, actually took actions to prove their God approved strength and correctness!

But, then the Pope(s) and other religious powers, saw a threat to their own power! Thus, the two often became embroiled in a great power struggle!

It is merely in the nature of some men and women to assume too much!

Edited by opuslola - 19-Nov-2010 at 15:14
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2010 at 21:41
We do not have to look at kings in the far past. Do you recognize this?

"Caudillo de España
por la gracia de Dios"
"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul."
Mark Twain
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2010 at 06:35
Yes, Franco!
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  Quote Deathless Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2010 at 10:15
Originally posted by Athena

Okay, can we begin working with some agreements? 
 
1. Islam is not original, but is built on knowledge of Judaism and Christianity.
 
2.  Mohammid wasn't mystically given knowledge of God's word, but got it from Christians and Jews who lived in his nieghborhood.
 
3.  There are reasons he and his followers did not convert to Judaism or Christianity, and they created a new religion.
 
4.  Like the beginning of Christianity there were many different versions of God's truth, until a group of people were given the authority to chose which stories to put in the holy book and which ones to throw out. 
 
5.  Among the believers there was a power struggle and a division.  This division and power struggle lead to wars.  True for both Christians and Muslims.   Also true in the long history of Christian and Muslim wars, leading Genghis Khan to tell his people to never choose one religion over the other. 
 
6.  Within both Christianity and Islam there have been leaders who supported their holy word by embracing Hellenism and also leaders who strongly rejected Hellenism as pagan.   Europe would not have progressed as it did, if it had not been for the later chruch embracing Greek and Roman classics and Scholasticism that spread this knowledge, leading to the Age of Reason and Age of Enlightenment, and our Statue of Liberty who holds a book for literacy and a torch for enligntenment. 
 
7.  All the God of Abraham religions claim God has favorites and that this God commands them to kill people in fights for land and to manage the problem of fighting evil, usually justifying the fight for land, by claiming the people who need to be removed are sinners and evil Godless people. 
 
8.  Christianity and Islam both say the Jews blew it with God. 
 
9.  Protestants and Muslims say the Catholic church distorted the revealed word and used religion to get money from people. 
 
10.  Hebrew is a sematic language with the same peculiarities as Arabic, and there is not absolute agreement about the correctness of any holy book, other than all the different groups like to believe their holy book is the best.   This includes the Mormons who give us a very interesting holy book about a lost tribe in south America, and some rather curious explanations of God's truth.   Oh, we might also mention the Bahi' because they also claim to have a better, up dated knowledge of God's truth.  A couple of women started new Protestant faiths, by writing their God inspired new truths, such as Christian Science and the Seventh Day adventist.   And didn't a Mongolian leader in India have some success at blending Hinduism, Islam and Christianity for awhile?  But now this is getting off topic, except that there is agreement the Jews had God's truth and that the the Torah is not the last word on God's truth, and the bible is not the last word on God's truth, and the last days will come with terrible suffering.  
 
How are doing so far?      


Good good..

Side-Note : neither Christianity or Judaism are original religions
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2010 at 15:35
Pat condell is an Atheist from England who speaks with passion. I believe his focus is about the Islamicist that threaten our free speech ,such as, the Organiztion of Islamic States.

Pat Condell in Italian

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-IE-RPt0MI&feature=player_embedded
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2010 at 00:42
What is your point?  Are the Muslims worse than the Christians were?  Are they worse then the Russians or Chinese?  I really don't think the problem is exculsuve to the Muslims. 
 
I think democracy with protected freedoms, is the answer, but much of the world does not think so.   In a dictatorship it is rule by power, not rule by reason.  In a theocracy, it is assumed the laws are God's laws, and this too is rule by power, not rule by reason.   Both dictatorships and theocracies, make people subjects to the civic or theorcratic powers over them.  Whereas the ideal of democracy is to have a consensus that the reasoning or a law is good reasoning, based on an understanding of nature and universal laws, and they can be changed when someone presents better reasoning. 
 


Edited by Athena - 21-Nov-2010 at 01:44
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2010 at 17:46
Originally posted by Athena

What is your point?  Are the Muslims worse than the Christians were?  Are they worse then the Russians or Chinese?  I really don't think the problem is exculsuve to the Muslims. 
 

I think democracy with protected freedoms, is the answer, but much of the world does not think so.   In a dictatorship it is rule by power, not rule by reason.  In a theocracy, it is assumed the laws are God's laws, and this too is rule by power, not rule by reason.   Both dictatorships and theocracies, make people subjects to the civic or theorcratic powers over them.  Whereas the ideal of democracy is to have a consensus that the reasoning or a law is good reasoning, based on an understanding of nature and universal laws, and they can be changed when someone presents better reasoning. 

 


Yes, but I don't play down the atrocities people have done in the name of Christ. The difference is these so-called Christians were not following the examples of Jesus Christ. Whereas, the Islamicist are following the examples of Muhammad found in the; Qur’an, Sunna and Hadith. Theocracy- if Christians had wanted that then we would be there. You forget the origins and history of America and the fact is the vast majority of early Americans were Christians or at least culturally Christian. It is a known fact that our very constitution and Bills of Rights and our very legal system were influenced by the Bible and Roman law. Christians today are not perfect but the church has reformed and if you look at currents events it is not the Christians or Jews who are causing 99% of the terror in the world today. Are all Muslims terrorist- NO!(most are not) But, most terrorism is caused by Islam today and the followers of that faith. Unless they reform in the same way Christianity has then the Islamicist will remain a threat to our freedoms. Hopefully the peaceful Muslims will take a stand and united they will end this hijacking of their faith. One group I support is the Islamic Forum for Democracy or Muslims against Sharia law.
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2010 at 22:54
Excuse me, Eaglecap, but it is my intent to publish a book titled  "The Golden Rule- Democracy, God and Morals Without Religion", and I do not take kindly to you addressing me with "You forget the origins and history of America".    I am still in the reseach stage and thanks to this thread, I now know I must include Zoroastrianism, which strongly influenced Judism and therefore, Christianity and Islam. 
 
The history of democracy begins with Athens, not the USA.   The schlasticism of the Catholic church, that educated Europe with Greek and Roman classics, is vital to our history.   Literate meant literate in Greek and Roman classics, and this is the foundation of our culture especially in the USA where the priority purpose  of education was good citenship and modeled after Athens education for well rounded individual growth.  Had it not been for this 'pagan' education, the US might not be any better than Islamic countries, because the holy books were written when kings and slaves were assumed, and stoning people was accepted.   Have you forgotten Christian history, the witch hunts, inquistion and crusades?   Germany was the Holy Roman Empire and spread Christian with the sword.  Christian nations have done terrible things to Jews, matching what Muslims are doing to preotect their religious hold. 
 
Christian evanglist like Billy Graham and Pat Robertson are not better than Bin Laden and other Muslims who encourage acts of war.   War is good for religion and religion is good for war.  The only real difference is the ability to make war.  The USA can demolish a major city in a matter of hours, and they call this the "Power and Glory".   The Muslim "terrorist" are pretty limited to using their own bodies to delieve bombs.  Both sides are claiming to be God's chosen people and that they are doing the will of God.    I challenge both sides to be the most pious and moral, and to be non violent.  Then neither can justify a war againt the other. 
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2010 at 03:18
I just watched a show about how the Beatles influenced the USSR and tearing the wall.  I know the Bealtes, especially Lennon played a strong role in getting the US out of Vietnam.  Today I will say, perhaps some Muslims are dangerous people, because they do have the Beatles music that lead many to peace and love. 
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2010 at 12:45
Originally posted by Athena

Excuse me, Eaglecap, but it is my intent to publish a book titled  "The Golden Rule- Democracy, God and Morals Without Religion", and I do not take kindly to you addressing me with "You forget the origins and history of America".    I am still in the reseach stage and thanks to this thread, I now know I must include Zoroastrianism, which strongly influenced Judism and therefore, Christianity and Islam. 
 

The history of democracy begins with Athens, not the USA.   The schlasticism of the Catholic church, that educated Europe with Greek and Roman classics, is vital to our history.   Literate meant literate in Greek and Roman classics, and this is the foundation of our culture especially in the USA where the priority purpose  of education was good citenship and modeled after Athens education for well rounded individual growth.  Had it not been for this 'pagan' education, the US might not be any better than Islamic countries, because the holy books were written when kings and slaves were assumed, and stoning people was accepted.   Have you forgotten Christian history, the witch hunts, inquistion and crusades?   Germany was the Holy Roman Empire and spread Christian with the sword.  Christian nations have done terrible things to Jews, matching what Muslims are doing to preotect their religious hold. 

 

Christian evanglist like Billy Graham and Pat Robertson are not better than Bin Laden and other Muslims who encourage acts of war.   War is good for religion and religion is good for war.  The only real difference is the ability to make war.  The USA can demolish a major city in a matter of hours, and they call this the "Power and Glory".   The Muslim "terrorist" are pretty limited to using their own bodies to delieve bombs.  Both sides are claiming to be God's chosen people and that they are doing the will of God.    I challenge both sides to be the most pious and moral, and to be non violent.  Then neither can justify a war againt the other. 


After the Holidays I will get back to this but you really, no offense, seem to lack focus and you seem to go all over the historic map. I was referring to American history and not ancient Greek or Zoastrian. You should also check out the influence of the Iroquois on our constitution, you might be surprised. If you look at current events it is not Christians who are strapping bombs onto themselves but I take it you are a liberal. What is your education level- BA, MA or higher? I wish you success with your new book!!

Happy thanks giving!

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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2010 at 13:23
Is savage even relevant anymore? looks like hes now in the shadow of Beck and Limbaugh...
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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